2022 schedule

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingLord wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:52 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 7:02 pm By your choice of words, your assumption appears to be that Kwesi has to prove he wasn’t wrong. As if the best he could do was to not get fleeced.

But isn’t it also possible that he fleeced those teams with whom he traded?

The choice seems to be that he was either very wrong or he wasn’t. Not that he was right. But at this point, we don’t know how any of these players will turn out. So isn’t there also a possibility that the players the Vikings drafted will torment the Lions and Packers?
If you have an idea that you sell as a better way to do things or accomplish a desired result, I think the burden is on you to prove it.

KAM could be right. While I personally doubt he is or was, he may very well be, and he'll get early and frequent on-field tests of his theory for all to see as well as twice-yearly ongoing tests of it for at least the next 3-4 seasons while all the players involved mature.

I guess I'm just jaded at this point and not as willing to focus on the most optimistic possible outcome. Sure, KAM might be a genius who has discovered a new Moneyball approach to stocking up a pro team roster in the draft. He might have swindled both the Packers and Lions. If that is the case, I'll be pleasantly surprised and super happy the Vikes snagged him before another team managed to.

But as much as I'd like to believe that, I know my gut reaction to the early moves he made was not positive. I feel like he didn't get enough in the first trade, and while he might have gotten enough in the 2nd in absolute compensation terms, giving the team that has won the North for what, the last 3 or 4 years running (I'm actually losing count now, as sad as that is since it's now a regular result) the one thing they were missing after trading Adams, doesn't seem smart to me no matter what the Vikings got in return for it. Packers could still have gotten the WR they wanted even if the Vikings didn't do that trade with them, but since KAM did do it, he's going to be associated with the outcome.
I honestly think we had a confluence of strange happenings. You’ve got Kwesi and his analytics-based approach, and you’ve got a draft that was deep but flat after the first few picks. Kwesi stockpiled picks on Day 2 and apparently has no problem trading within the division.

Not saying he was right. But I’m willing to look at his first draft from what I believe is his perspective.

And I’m not convinced that either receiver is going to be anything special. The recovery history for WRs who tear ACLs is not good, and Williams has the extreme misfortune of going to Detroit. As for Watson, he’s big and fast, and he dominated FCS. But he’s also just an OK route runner and a body catcher, which led to 16 drops.

On the other hand, I see the potential for Cine and Booth to become excellent players, even Pro Bowlers. And I’m far from alone in that assessment. Cine has been tabbed as one of the most instinctive players in the draft, and Booth gets some absolutely glowing remarks. Ian Cummings at Pro Football Network ranked him as the fourth-best player in the entire class, as did his colleague at PFN, Oliver Hodgkinson. Cummings wrote:
Booth is the best all-around playmaker at cornerback. He has lightning-fast feet and unreal corrective twitch and energy in his movement. He’s supremely explosive, with impressive fluidity, physicality and run support. At the catch point, Booth is hyper-instinctive, and he makes gravity-defying plays on the ball.
Cummings gave Booth the CB1 spot over Derek Stingley and Ahmad Gardner because of his length and upside. That may be too high praise, but it gives you an idea what analysts see on film.

The issue with Booth is his health, but it’s the only reason he fell. Talent-wise, I believe we got someone on the level of Gardner at Pick 42. That’s why I wonder if the Lions and Packers won't end up ruing the day they dealt within the division with the Vikings. And by the way, why does nobody criticize THEM for inner-divisional trades? Does everybody just assume they won those deals? I don’t.
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Re: 2022 schedule

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:01 am
fiestavike wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 8:00 am

Oh boy. Maybe I'm just becoming a curmudgeon, but these lightweights have disaster written all over them.
Only lightweight I see in the entire draft is Asamoah. Cine could use 10 more pounds, but at his height and build he can add that easy.
Maybe Ingram could use 10 more pounds, but it seems his anchor is good.
I am talking about KOC and Kwesi, not the players the Vikings selected.
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by VikingsVictorious »

fiestavike wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:28 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:01 am
Only lightweight I see in the entire draft is Asamoah. Cine could use 10 more pounds, but at his height and build he can add that easy.
Maybe Ingram could use 10 more pounds, but it seems his anchor is good.
I am talking about KOC and Kwesi, not the players the Vikings selected.
I'm not a huge fan of either, but I wouldn't call them lightweights. Time will tell.
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by fiestavike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:36 pm
fiestavike wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:28 pm

I am talking about KOC and Kwesi, not the players the Vikings selected.
I'm not a huge fan of either, but I wouldn't call them lightweights. Time will tell.
That video link was painful. I was cringing. Maybe the new generation of players will respond well to those guys and that kind of leadership, but I find Kwesi and KOC embarrassing.

...approaching Brad Childress level of cringe.
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by CharVike »

fiestavike wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:32 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:36 pm
I'm not a huge fan of either, but I wouldn't call them lightweights. Time will tell.
That video link was painful. I was cringing. Maybe the new generation of players will respond well to those guys and that kind of leadership, but I find Kwesi and KOC embarrassing.

...approaching Brad Childress level of cringe.
Childog gave us a great season in 2009. He reached for a QB TJ who he wanted to mold into McNabb and it didn't work. He was lucky Farve had one good year left in his body otherwise he wouldn't have had any success. Genius Kewsi hasn't done anything to open my eyes. I've seen his act already for the last X number of years. He hit the repeat button. We'll know very shortly if it worked.
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by allday1991 »

fiestavike wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:32 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:36 pm
I'm not a huge fan of either, but I wouldn't call them lightweights. Time will tell.
That video link was painful. I was cringing. Maybe the new generation of players will respond well to those guys and that kind of leadership, but I find Kwesi and KOC embarrassing.

...approaching Brad Childress level of cringe.
Can someone relink, I can’t find the video being talked about.
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by VikingLord »

psjordan wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:50 pm And boy do folks place a lot of angst on the "we have to play this guy two times per season". Geez that's maybe one game more than if we traded with a dozen other teams - if our hopes and dreams boil down to not being able to handle one player in one (additional) game, we probably aren't going anywhere anyways.
I don't think that is a fair characterization of what I wrote.

He'll play against those players for at least 4 seasons at least twice a year, every year (and maybe more depending on playoffs). In this case, not only will they face those players, the positional matchups will highlight those particular players in each of those matchups.

Had he traded outside the division, he'd likely have faced the traded players once per year max, and possibly not even that often. It wouldn't be nearly as direct or consistent a contrast.

Minimize it as much as you want, but that is a fact and because of it KAM is exposing himself to more criticism if it doesn't work out than he otherwise would have trading outside the division.
psjordan wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:50 pm You are correct saying only time will tell with these specific players, but even then if it does not pan out to our advantage that hardly states what he did should remain forbidden.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying it might have been too smart for his own good. Kind of like the guy who stands on top of a hill in the middle of a lightning storm and dares the gods to strike him. Maybe the gods are a myth, or maybe they don't hear him over the din of the storm, but maybe there is a good reason not to do that that isn't just an old wive's tale.
psjordan wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:50 pm I mean if Za'Darius wreaks havoc in game one, is the GB front office a bunch of buffoons?
Granted, it wasn't with Zadarius (yet, anyway), but we kind of got to get the answer to that question with Favre, didn't we?

Sure, the Packers went with the better long term option when they stuck with Rodgers, but they did light an intense fire under Favre in 2009 for sure.
psjordan wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:50 pm The big picture really should just be whether our drafting prowess ends up above average over time. Because for all the fretting over how we acquired picks and what we gave away, at the end of the day it all depends on the players chosen along with how we coach them up. In fact I'd say it's 95% who we select and how we coach, and 5% how we got the picks to select those players.
I think you'd be very welcome with the Wilfs as they seem to agree with you. Well, maybe they'd have different percentages because they canned Spielman too, but based on the moves made thus far it sure seems like they're betting on KOC being the Vikings Whisperer as head coach.
psjordan wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:50 pm For me, the real barometer is whether KAM is our GM in say four years. If he's not, he obviously failed and his methods were suspect. Until then, I'll stay as optimistic as I can for at least the full upcoming season.
Odds are very good that KAM will still be the GM in four years.

I'm trying to stay with you on the optimism, more because when I look at how last season played out I saw a team with a pretty dysfunctional head coach that still almost managed to make the playoffs despite a really bad defense. I keep telling myself that even if the team isn't greatly changed personnel-wise, new, hopefully better coaching, coupled with an offense that remains potent and better defense can at least get them back into contention.

As for KAM, I'm willing to let it play out and see what he can do, but he also doesn't get any free passes from me. Belichek and the Patriots had an almost universally mocked last draft, but Belichek gets a pass because he's built and coached team after competitive team. Neither KAM nor KOC have earned that yet.
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Re: 2022 schedule

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VikingLord wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:24 pm

I'm not saying that. I'm saying it might have been too smart for his own good. Kind of like the guy who stands on top of a hill in the middle of a lightning storm and dares the gods to strike him. Maybe the gods are a myth, or maybe they don't hear him over the din of the storm, but maybe there is a good reason not to do that that isn't just an old wive's tale.
Isn't this mindset what keeps this franchise hovering in mediocrity?

Prometheus stole fire from the gods and gave it to humanity, and for it was severely punished by Zeus. But fire (read: technology) was the prize and there was no going back. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, is what I say. It may fail, but I like that Kwesi is not making decisions out of fear. Fear of failure is what keeps a team around .500, but never touching greatness. The old curmudgeons have always cringed at the Prometheus types, but they're also among the first to sit by the fire for warmth and to cook their food. They don't even thank Prometheus as they do it. :v):
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

I dont know how much he ventured. I think he bowed to the will of the Owners pretty easily. Another frigging contract for Kirk? Did the new GM and the new HC learn nothing from watching the previous years of Cousins?
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Re: 2022 schedule

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JJBreaksRecords wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 8:17 am I dont know how much he ventured. I think he bowed to the will of the Owners pretty easily. Another frigging contract for Kirk? Did the new GM and the new HC learn nothing from watching the previous years of Cousins?
Tell me you didn't watch the video, without telling me you didn't watch the video :lol:

Mark Wilf clearly didn't have any input on the decision to trade #12 to a division rival. He looks extremely nervous about KAM's decision, actually. Regarding Kirk: what was the other option? Cut him and eat the guaranteed money we were on the hook for? And play whom at QB? They gave him a 2 year contract; that's hardly a long-term commitment. If Cousins flourishes this season, great, if not, I expect that they'll draft his replacement next year.
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 5:06 pm
fiestavike wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:32 am

That video link was painful. I was cringing. Maybe the new generation of players will respond well to those guys and that kind of leadership, but I find Kwesi and KOC embarrassing.

...approaching Brad Childress level of cringe.
Childog gave us a great season in 2009. He reached for a QB TJ who he wanted to mold into McNabb and it didn't work. He was lucky Farve had one good year left in his body otherwise he wouldn't have had any success. Genius Kewsi hasn't done anything to open my eyes. I've seen his act already for the last X number of years. He hit the repeat button. We'll know very shortly if it worked.
Tarvaris Jackson was a decent QB. I don't get why most seem to think he was a total bum. He had a QBR in the 90s the season before we brought in Brett. That put him in the top half of the league.
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by VikingsVictorious »

allday1991 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 5:18 pm
fiestavike wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:32 am

That video link was painful. I was cringing. Maybe the new generation of players will respond well to those guys and that kind of leadership, but I find Kwesi and KOC embarrassing.

...approaching Brad Childress level of cringe.
Can someone relink, I can’t find the video being talked about.
It's on the top of page 6. Click watch on YouTube.
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:24 pm
psjordan wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:50 pm And boy do folks place a lot of angst on the "we have to play this guy two times per season". Geez that's maybe one game more than if we traded with a dozen other teams - if our hopes and dreams boil down to not being able to handle one player in one (additional) game, we probably aren't going anywhere anyways.
I don't think that is a fair characterization of what I wrote.

He'll play against those players for at least 4 seasons at least twice a year, every year (and maybe more depending on playoffs). In this case, not only will they face those players, the positional matchups will highlight those particular players in each of those matchups.

Had he traded outside the division, he'd likely have faced the traded players once per year max, and possibly not even that often. It wouldn't be nearly as direct or consistent a contrast.

Minimize it as much as you want, but that is a fact and because of it KAM is exposing himself to more criticism if it doesn't work out than he otherwise would have trading outside the division.
Your reason for not trading within the division is the reason I'm in favor of trading within the division. Win the trade and it's all the more noticeable. I'm glad that Kwesi isn't afraid of opening himself up to criticism.
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by StanM »

psjordan wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:59 pm
VikingLord wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 1:15 pm It looks like the Wilfs expect them to make the playoffs based on their public statements. The way it looks to me, they felt the major change needed for the team to return to the playoffs was to replace the GM and head coach to get more out of the talent already on the team.

If KOC doesn't turn out to be more effective at getting the most out of the existing talent than Zimmer was able to get, I wonder how the Wilfs will react.

On the bright side, the actions of the Wilfs and of the new GM will allow their various theories to be put to the test. If the thing holding the Vikings back from success was the GM-coach combo, replacing both while holding the talent steady should result in an improved W-L record and/or playoff success. For KAM, his trades with divisional rivals (who both selected receivers, not ironically) will allow everyone to see twice a year if his theory on the relative flatness of the talent pool between picks 12-75 was accurate. The Vikings also get an early Monday night matchup against the Eagles this season, so we can all see if passing on Jordan Davis validates that as well since I'll be shocked if Davis doesn't start that game. Will we see Lewis Cine and Andrew Booth jumping in front of passes and flying up to blow up running plays, or Jordan Davis absolutely wrecking the interior Vikings OL when the Vikings hand it to Cook? Should be interesting to see. I'm willing to give KAM the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think it will take very long to see if he read it right or he's full of hot air and really doesn't know what he's doing.
Maybe I'm imagining your condensed timeline, but this is probably the most unfair take I've seen you post here VL, and you don't post many unfair takes, if any.

This will take time, and everyone inside the building understands that. No one will be on a hot seat after year one, or even year two for that matter. Both the GM and HC are brand new to their positions, the Wilfs will give it time. They certainly had patience with the last regime.
Good point. If the Wilfs dictated their wishes and wanted to give our core group of veterans one more shot before cutting them loose why would they fire their new hires if it doesn’t work out. None of us know the conversations that took place behind closed doors. We can only look at the moves they made and formulate guesses and defend opinions. I always give them the benefit of the doubt and have always felt that my only choice as a fan is whether to invest my time in following them. Anything beyond that would just frustrate me and negate the reason I watch sports (enjoyment and relaxation). If I didn’t get those benefits from being a fan I wouldn’t ####, I’d simply find something else to do in the fall. :slice:
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Re: 2022 schedule

Post by StanM »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:01 am
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:52 am "To me the only thing that really sucks is getting the bears after being jetlagged. However, they are the Bears so we should be OK." V.V.

The bears are improved (not as much as the Vikings though, I dont think) but its outside in the freezing cold yet again. Why does it seem like we get most of the Cold game sites, in the division every year? :wallbang:
The Bears game after the London trip is at US Bank. I already commented on how idiotic the NFL is for scheduling the Vikings at home for the good weather games with Chicago and the Pukers and having the bad weather games outdoors on the road last two weeks of the season dead in the heart of winter. WTF is wrong with those schedule makers?
What has become of us? Back in the 70’s we used to be the kings of cold weather games. Yet here we are now complaining about having to play outdoors in December.

But on a more serious note, the schedule is what it is. Both teams are going to play in the same condition and half these players never experienced cold until they were drafted by northern teams. It’s an even playing field with the exception of home crowds. If we can’t overcome a bit of cold weather and focus on the task at hand we will never get past our division. Back when I started watching the Vikings there weren’t any domed stadiums in 1961.