Top Tier QB's

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VikingLord
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:02 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 9:36 am

Yeah I mean how could we possibly do that right? Just like how could the Chiefs possibly come up from 27 to 10 to land Patrick Mahomes? Just not even sure how that's possible :whistle:
Yep all we need is for what looks like at least 6 teams who were planning on using next year's draft to improve their QB position (Carolina, NYG, NO, ATL, Detroit and Seattle) to not select or trade up with more ammunition.

KC got Mahomes because teams felt the QB draft class in 2017 was weak and planned to fill their QB needs in other ways similar to what happened this year. On top of that, it also took the Bears choosing Christian Ponder Jr over Mahomes for them to even have a shot at Mahomes. That isn't what is going to happen with the 2023 draft class and if we wanted to replicate what KC did, we should have drafted a QB this year.
The Malik Willis plunge in this last draft could be one that haunts teams for a long time. Vikings had 3 shots at him and passed on all of them. If Willis turns out to be an impact player at QB, that will be yet another missed opportunity we fans get to rue for a long time.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 5:23 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:32 pm As one of those who doesn't feel we need to move on from Cousins my answer to what would make me change my mind is if I saw a decline in Cousins play. IMO he has played quite well for us so my mind isn't going to be changed until he isn't playing well for us. I see what Stafford, a very similar QB to Cousins, did with the Rams after being a perennial loser just by getting a better team. I'm feeling pretty good about our chances with Cousins. If Hunter and Smith can play healthy all season I see us as at minimum a 10 win team and likely better. That may not match the way you see things and that's OK.
I can understand your take on it, and I agree that the main thing that held the Vikings back last year (and probably the last 2 years) was more the defense than Cousins or the offense. If the defense improves and Cousins plays the same, I'd agree with you the Vikings should be a 10 win team and make the playoffs.

Just not convinced Cousins is a guy who gets them over the hump. He seems to lack that moxie or leadership factor. Not sure Stafford had that when he was with the Lions, so the change of scenery was probably a good thing for him (in addition to being on a better team overall). The only change of scenery for Cousins is a new head coach. Maybe that will be enough to finally get Cousins over the hump.
Good post. I disagree that Cousins doesn't have the Moxie or Leadership is my only contention.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

JJBreaksRecords wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:13 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:02 pm

lol pretty amazing that you somehow know what's going to happen in the 2023 draft :lol: I honestly dont care what you think. Your word of what's going to happen in the 2023 draft when we're currently in the 2022 offseason literally couldnt mean less. Regardless, you're just going to constantly disagree with anything regarding Kirk Cousins, what this organization does with him, etc. It's beyond tiring.
If you dont care what he thinks, why do you respond to his post so often? Simply because he isnt a Cousins fan (who I assume, like me, doesnt think Kirk can win the SB, or next)?
JJ I feel you are a little over the top with your disdain for Cousins, but you aren't anything like Stump when it comes to talking about him. Stump drives people crazy. I can't deal with him any more so I put him on ignore. I recommend that strategy for the people he drives crazy otherwise they will find themselves responding to him again and again and becoming very unhappy. I don't have any feelings like that regarding you and I look at the posts where you think I'm insulting you and I don't see it. Am I out of line saying you come on a bit strong with Cousins negativity?
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 5:29 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:02 am
Yep all we need is for what looks like at least 6 teams who were planning on using next year's draft to improve their QB position (Carolina, NYG, NO, ATL, Detroit and Seattle) to not select or trade up with more ammunition.

KC got Mahomes because teams felt the QB draft class in 2017 was weak and planned to fill their QB needs in other ways similar to what happened this year. On top of that, it also took the Bears choosing Christian Ponder Jr over Mahomes for them to even have a shot at Mahomes. That isn't what is going to happen with the 2023 draft class and if we wanted to replicate what KC did, we should have drafted a QB this year.
The Malik Willis plunge in this last draft could be one that haunts teams for a long time. Vikings had 3 shots at him and passed on all of them. If Willis turns out to be an impact player at QB, that will be yet another missed opportunity we fans get to rue for a long time.
I'm sure every team in the NFL considered that possibility and the answer was they saw no possibility of him being an impact player.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

StumpHunter wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 1:02 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:02 pm

lol pretty amazing that you somehow know what's going to happen in the 2023 draft :lol: I honestly dont care what you think. Your word of what's going to happen in the 2023 draft when we're currently in the 2022 offseason literally couldnt mean less. Regardless, you're just going to constantly disagree with anything regarding Kirk Cousins, what this organization does with him, etc. It's beyond tiring.
Would it be easier or harder to draft the QBOTF with a higher or lower draft pick next year? Do you think most of the teams I listed will be looking for a new QB or content with their current one next year?
Again, it's pretty amazing that you believe you can predict the future....

And FYI, Detroit, NO, Seattle and NYG all could've used QBs this year and passed on them multiple times. Teams like Seattle and NO were surefire teams to draft a QB this year and didnt touch one. I mean they all had the option to even take Pickett and instead let him fall all the way to Pitt. The other teams you mentioned like Carolina and Atlanta, drafted Matt Corral and Desmond Ridder this year. So they are also far from a guarantee to push for a QB. Clearly there will be a couple teams like there are every year but again, you have zero clue what is going to happen an entire year away. Justin Herbert could have a career ending injury and the Chargers could be desperate. Desmond Ridder could take over in Atlanta and go off. Like you just dont know. So to try and predict where we're going to finish this year along with who will and wont be hunting for QBs next year, literally couldnt carry less weight like I said. You dont know anymore than the next man on what will happen next year.
Last edited by Pondering Her Percy on Wed May 11, 2022 6:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:37 pm
VikingLord wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 5:29 pm

The Malik Willis plunge in this last draft could be one that haunts teams for a long time. Vikings had 3 shots at him and passed on all of them. If Willis turns out to be an impact player at QB, that will be yet another missed opportunity we fans get to rue for a long time.
I'm sure every team in the NFL considered that possibility and the answer was they saw no possibility of him being an impact player.
Exactly. DESPERATE QB teams like Seattle passed on him multiple times. There were other teams that could've used him and passed. There was a reason for that.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 6:32 am
StumpHunter wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 1:02 pm
Would it be easier or harder to draft the QBOTF with a higher or lower draft pick next year? Do you think most of the teams I listed will be looking for a new QB or content with their current one next year?
Again, it's pretty amazing that you believe you can predict the future....

And FYI, Detroit, NO, Seattle and NYG all could've used QBs this year and passed on them multiple times. Teams like Seattle and NO were surefire teams to draft a QB this year and didnt touch one. I mean they all had the option to even take Pickett and instead let him fall all the way to Pitt. The other teams you mentioned like Carolina and Atlanta, drafted Matt Corral and Desmond Ridder this year. So they are also far from a guarantee to push for a QB. Clearly there will be a couple teams like there are every year but again, you have zero clue what is going to happen an entire year away. Justin Herbert could have a career ending injury and the Chargers could be desperate. Desmond Ridder could take over in Atlanta and go off. Like you just dont know.
I wasn't asking what you KNOW will happen, I asked what you THINK will happen and instead of answering you deflected with a response that proves my point about teams thinking next year's draft is a better one to find a QB. Unless you think Seattle, Detroit and NYG believe they already have their answer in Lock, Goff and Jones? Or that Atlanta and Carolina waited until the 3rd round to draft a QB they believe is likely to be their QBOTF?
So to try and predict where we're going to finish this year along with who will and wont be hunting for QBs next year, literally couldnt carry less weight like I said.
I am sorry that common sense means so little to you. Nothing is a guarantee for next year, and I never claimed it was, but I can use common sense to predict that teams with very little at their current starting QB spot and poor future prospects on the roster, will likely be looking to upgrade at QB in the 2023 draft. Or that drafting earlier in the first makes it easier to acquire the top QB prospect in the draft than drafting later.

Not sure what you could possibly disagree with in any of that, but I can't wait to see you try.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:34 pm
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:13 pm

If you dont care what he thinks, why do you respond to his post so often? Simply because he isnt a Cousins fan (who I assume, like me, doesnt think Kirk can win the SB, or next)?
JJ I feel you are a little over the top with your disdain for Cousins, but you aren't anything like Stump when it comes to talking about him. Stump drives people crazy.
If that is true, those people should take a good hard look at their lives and wonder why my posting about Cousins not being good enough drives them "crazy".
Am I out of line saying you come on a bit strong with Cousins negativity?
Maybe give some examples of his over the top negativity on Cousins? Seems to me that he is just stating facts about what Cousins has done in purple while others defend him by projecting what could have been if everything went perfect for him. One uses reality to prove their point, the others live in fantasy land.

The reality is, that the initial signing and subsequent extensions of Cousins have not been successful for the MN Vikings. The team got worse with him than they were before the signing and while people love to come up with excuses for why that is, until the team improves on the 2017 season with Cousins as QB, or we finally have a season where Cousins was the best QB option in any given year, he has not been a successful QB.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 9:27 am
I wasn't asking what you KNOW will happen, I asked what you THINK will happen and instead of answering you deflected with a response that proves my point about teams thinking next year's draft is a better one to find a QB. Unless you think Seattle, Detroit and NYG believe they already have their answer in Lock, Goff and Jones? Or that Atlanta and Carolina waited until the 3rd round to draft a QB they believe is likely to be their QBOTF?
Please, dont flatter yourself. I proved absolutely nothing that you said. There is zero proof to what you are saying because it's all assumption based and guessing. Like you think I "proved what you said about teams thinking next years class is better" but one of those teams I mentioned (New Orleans) has no first round pick next year. But they think next year's class is a better class to find one right? They literally TRADED AWAY their first round pick next year to get back into this years first round :lol: And what are you even talking about with Ridder and Corral? The Eagles just drafted Jalen Hurts in round 3 two years ago and literally havent drafted a QB since. Post-draft in 2020, you would've literally been saying the same thing about the Eagles. If Ridder or Corral show any sort of growth or play well at any point this season, there's a very high chance those teams dont touch a QB next year. You're just pulling garbage out of the dumpster at this point.
I am sorry that common sense means so little to you. Nothing is a guarantee for next year, and I never claimed it was, but I can use common sense to predict that teams with very little at their current starting QB spot and poor future prospects on the roster, will likely be looking to upgrade at QB in the 2023 draft. Or that drafting earlier in the first makes it easier to acquire the top QB prospect in the draft than drafting later.

Not sure what you could possibly disagree with in any of that, but I can't wait to see you try.
Guessing what teams will need a QB next year is common sense? Maybe now sure? But you also have zero clue how Matt Corral and Desmond Ridder will be this year. Are you going to say Corral and Ridder are poor future prospects but Jalen Hurts was a high end future prospect? Trust me your scouting skills arent nearly as good as you think they are. You have no idea what's going to happen with Lamar Jackson or Kyler Murray. Do they get traded to a team like Russell did? And the Ravens or Cardinals do what Seattle did and pass on a QB. Again, you have no clue what's going to happen so stop acting like you do. It's the 2022 offseason and you're already talking 2023 draft. Nobody knows anything. Look at 2023 mock drafts, save them and tell me how DRASTICALLY wrong they were come the 2023 draft.

I dont care what you THINK will happen in the 2023 draft, in the 2023 offseason, to the Vikings in 2022. It literally means nothing. Negative. Zilch. Zero. And has zero credibility to it. You talk assumptions like we should listen to them as gospel and then get all defensive when someone doesnt agree with your wild guesses.....theres a reason for that.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:11 pm
CharVike wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:52 am
Goff took that core Ram team to the Super Bowl. The Ram team has one of the best OL in the NFL. Put our POS OL out in LA and there will be no Super Bowl. Signing LBJ helped. We played against Stafford this year and he tried to hand us the game by turning the ball over 3 times. As a team we didn't want it. Cook was out and Matti did nothing because our OL couldn't block. Zim's D never put any pressure on Stafford and had zero sacks. Cousins was sacked 3 times. Our special teams didn't show up. You have thoughts on QBs like everybody. You mentioned Newton as a great addition. We hired JOC not McVay. We won't be able to run the same offense. There will need to be changes because we don't have the same players. We don't have a center who can block. Something will need to be done to help that stiff. The Rams O never needed to make a change for no center. Donald, Ramsey and Fletcher were top level players before Stafford. He didn't elevate them as the media will make people believe. Those three players would be immediate starters on our D and a huge improvement.
Good Post, but why do you continually refer to Kevin O'Connell as JOC?
Brain lock I guess. I just started typing JOC for some reason right from the start and never gave it a second thought after that.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:33 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 5:11 pm
Good Post, but why do you continually refer to Kevin O'Connell as JOC?
Brain lock I guess. I just started typing JOC for some reason right from the start and never gave it a second thought after that.
Well the first step to overcoming a problem is recognizing it exists. So now maybe you will remember it's KOC. :D :govikes:
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingLord »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:37 pm
VikingLord wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 5:29 pm

The Malik Willis plunge in this last draft could be one that haunts teams for a long time. Vikings had 3 shots at him and passed on all of them. If Willis turns out to be an impact player at QB, that will be yet another missed opportunity we fans get to rue for a long time.
I'm sure every team in the NFL considered that possibility and the answer was they saw no possibility of him being an impact player.
It's hard to understand why nobody saw Willis as being an impact player though. From the limited stuff I watched and the stuff I read pre-draft, Willis looked like the type of QB that has become vogue in the NFL - a guy who can scramble and run effectively with a good arm.

I would have been OK had the Vikings gambled #12 on him, and I was surprised when he fell out of the first round given the insatiable need at QB in the pros and the fact every team wants to have a developmental QB who can turn into a future starter. I mean, if the Packers would use a 1st to take Jordan Love when they already had an established starter in Rodgers, why wouldn't a team use a late 1st or early 2nd on a guy like Willis?

You're right though - if the Vikings blew it multiple times with Willis, so did every other team. Time will tell.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:58 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:37 pm
I'm sure every team in the NFL considered that possibility and the answer was they saw no possibility of him being an impact player.
It's hard to understand why nobody saw Willis as being an impact player though. From the limited stuff I watched and the stuff I read pre-draft, Willis looked like the type of QB that has become vogue in the NFL - a guy who can scramble and run effectively with a good arm.

I would have been OK had the Vikings gambled #12 on him, and I was surprised when he fell out of the first round given the insatiable need at QB in the pros and the fact every team wants to have a developmental QB who can turn into a future starter. I mean, if the Packers would use a 1st to take Jordan Love when they already had an established starter in Rodgers, why wouldn't a team use a late 1st or early 2nd on a guy like Willis?

You're right though - if the Vikings blew it multiple times with Willis, so did every other team. Time will tell.
I would have been happy if we had drafted Willis with the pick we used on Asamoah. I fully agree with your words bolded above. We could have developed him for 2-3 years and only used him in emergencies while he learned. I think KOC likes Mond. If he didn't I think we would have drafted Willis or Ridder.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 2:49 pm
VikingLord wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:58 pm

It's hard to understand why nobody saw Willis as being an impact player though. From the limited stuff I watched and the stuff I read pre-draft, Willis looked like the type of QB that has become vogue in the NFL - a guy who can scramble and run effectively with a good arm.

I would have been OK had the Vikings gambled #12 on him, and I was surprised when he fell out of the first round given the insatiable need at QB in the pros and the fact every team wants to have a developmental QB who can turn into a future starter. I mean, if the Packers would use a 1st to take Jordan Love when they already had an established starter in Rodgers, why wouldn't a team use a late 1st or early 2nd on a guy like Willis?

You're right though - if the Vikings blew it multiple times with Willis, so did every other team. Time will tell.
I would have been happy if we had drafted Willis with the pick we used on Asamoah. I fully agree with your words bolded above. We could have developed him for 2-3 years and only used him in emergencies while he learned. I think KOC likes Mond. If he didn't I think we would have drafted Willis or Ridder.
I don't believe KOC has strong feelings, good or bad about Mond and will make his assessment in camp. Or at least that is how it should be based on how little anyone outside of the former coaching staff saw of him.

As for Willis, the most logical explanation for why he fell is that teams did not think he was as a dynamic runner as Jackson. If they did think he could come in and run for 80+ yards a game, teams wouldn't have been as worried about him being a dynamic passer right out of the gate since Jackson proved a QB can improve his team throwing for 150 yards a game if he also runs for 100 in his rookie season.

Either that or coaches are stubborn about switching their entire offense to fit his skillsets, which every team but Philly and Baltimore would have had to do. You would think a HC would be willing to do that with how few quality starting QBs there are, but I could also see guys at the top of their professions thinking they would prefer to find a QB who they possibly could develop fit their system versus drafting a QB they could plug in right away and be successful...but only if they entirely change the way they have done things for years.

The guy who I wish the Vikings would have taken a shot on in one of the later rounds was Carson Strong. He is very boom or bust, but if he could figure out how to handle pressure a little better and how to avoid forcing throws he shouldn't, he does have the tools to be elite.

Then there is the guy who I thought was the best QB in this class going in, Pickens who was available. The guy looked like a Mahomes, Watson, Rodgers, Wilson type who does everything well you want a QB to do well. He only looked like that for one season though, and his hands are just so small and that IS really important. He is the guy who Vikings fans will most likely be bemoaning not drafting and he could have been our Mahomes pick if we had just taken a shot.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

Interesting, it seems I was the only one who thought Corral would be the QB to take in the later rounds (3-7). Im not 100% he was still there at 5. Or if he was there at the Asamoth (sp?) pick, cause that would have been a good spot to pick him in. I didnt like the Ingram pick at all, didnt want this pick to be Corral or Willis though because, I think they could have done much better then Ingram or Willis.