Top Tier QB's

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VikingLord
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingLord »

IIsweet wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:01 am Did anyone else notice just how good the college QBs looked this past weekend?
I said it before, there are A LOT of QBs in this next 2023 draft.
I would be extremely happy with a handful of those guys as our next QB of the future.
With JJ and some of our better due big raises, we may need to get that QB on the cheap.
The bright side of that is there are going to be a lot of good QB prospects in next year's draft.

The dark side of that is I doubt the Vikings will have a reasonable shot at getting any of them, especially if the team does well this year.

Well, I'll take a Superbowl run season over a high draft pick QB any day. What would suck is if the Vikings muddle through the season again, either barely making or missing the playoffs, and end up drafting just outside of the range where they would have a realistic shot of getting a possible franchise QB. That would be par for the course with this team for the last several decades.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Here's the follow up to the first Warner Video Breakdown on Cousins and shows some things that Kirk Definitely needs to work on.


Understand this is a lowlight reel so of course Kirk will look bad. I can't argue with any of what Warner showed and said.
The biggest complaint Warner has with Kirk is he settles for the check down pass too often. Warner is generally right in every example he shows, but that said Kirk still has an average depth of target among the higher QBs in the league. It's easy to pick out plays that didn't work and say what should have been different. It does show room for Kirk to improve and I hope he does.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:18 am Here's the follow up to the first Warner Video Breakdown on Cousins and shows some things that Kirk Definitely needs to work on.


Understand this is a lowlight reel so of course Kirk will look bad. I can't argue with any of what Warner showed and said.
The biggest complaint Warner has with Kirk is he settles for the check down pass too often. Warner is generally right in every example he shows, but that said Kirk still has an average depth of target among the higher QBs in the league. It's easy to pick out plays that didn't work and say what should have been different. It does show room for Kirk to improve and I hope he does.
This is why some of us dont worship him. And why he is called Captain Checkdown. The guy has the skills but he cant handle the idea of an int or a pick6. Maybe if the Oline is as good as a lot seem to think it is, he wont have to check it down so much.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by allday1991 »

JJBreaksRecords wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 1:34 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:18 am Here's the follow up to the first Warner Video Breakdown on Cousins and shows some things that Kirk Definitely needs to work on.


Understand this is a lowlight reel so of course Kirk will look bad. I can't argue with any of what Warner showed and said.
The biggest complaint Warner has with Kirk is he settles for the check down pass too often. Warner is generally right in every example he shows, but that said Kirk still has an average depth of target among the higher QBs in the league. It's easy to pick out plays that didn't work and say what should have been different. It does show room for Kirk to improve and I hope he does.
This is why some of us dont worship him. And why he is called Captain Checkdown. The guy has the skills but he cant handle the idea of an int or a pick6. Maybe if the Oline is as good as a lot seem to think it is, he wont have to check it down so much.
Doesn’t Brady check down the most? Pretty sure I seen that stat, which alone should eliminate talk that checking down to means you can’t win.
“I remember my mistakes more than my success.” - Adrian Peterson
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

allday1991 wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:09 pm
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 1:34 pm

This is why some of us dont worship him. And why he is called Captain Checkdown. The guy has the skills but he cant handle the idea of an int or a pick6. Maybe if the Oline is as good as a lot seem to think it is, he wont have to check it down so much.
Doesn’t Brady check down the most? Pretty sure I seen that stat, which alone should eliminate talk that checking down to means you can’t win.
Cousins doesn't check down much either or he wouldn't be 9th in yards per attempt in the NFL. Yards per attempt is a stat I like a lot. Average Depth of target is probably a better stat for this, but I'm having a little trouble finding it. I'll update this post when I do.

I found it I think. It was on RotoWire and you had to be a member to unlock all the stats. From what I found Stafford was 1st at 8.9, Cousins was 5th at 8.4, Brady was 7th. Future hall of famers Rodgers and Mahomes were at 7.7 Stump since this is a deep dive stat could you double check this stat and let me know if it is wrong? I'll take a look at your reply. Please don't let me know about any even deeper stats. Here's the link I used.

https://www.rotowire.com/football/playe ... e=advanced

Another cool stat I found there was sack %. Brady almost never got sacked. 3%. Cousins was pretty good despite the IMO very poor line play he received at 4.8%. Burrow got Sacked by far the most. I honestly hope that improves as I want to see him have a nice long career.

JJ you choose to believe Myths. How about using your brain instead of parroting these myths and distortions?
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Re: Top Tier QB's

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:18 am Understand this is a lowlight reel so of course Kirk will look bad. I can't argue with any of what Warner showed and said.
The biggest complaint Warner has with Kirk is he settles for the check down pass too often. Warner is generally right in every example he shows, but that said Kirk still has an average depth of target among the higher QBs in the league. It's easy to pick out plays that didn't work and say what should have been different. It does show room for Kirk to improve and I hope he does.
First thing I thought watching this was, can the Vikings somehow entice Warner to be Kirk's spiritual QB coach? :)

I like the way Warner breaks things down, both in terms of the plays themselves but also in terms of the thought process behind how a QB must diagnose the play. Really insightful and while Warner makes it sound pretty straightforward, it is a lot of things to recognize and react to in quick succession all while being rushed from multiple angles. I think an analysis like this underscores why so few college QBs end up being successful in the pros regardless of their physical attributes or even college careers. There is a lot going on and if a guy can't read and execute rapidly, he's not going to succeed. Not saying I got that Cousins can't do that - there is evidence he can, but this underscores how important that ability to do that on every play is, and it is true that Cousins hasn't consistently handled that.

Another thing I got from watching this that Warner didn't point out was the QB's confidence in his offensive line. Why might Cousins be jittery on some plays or against some teams? It might be because he's not confident his blockers will protect him.

Warner also didn't mention the influence of coaching when analyzing what Cousins was doing on these plays. Warner wants Cousins to be aggressive and attempt the deeper throws. Maybe Zimmer didn't want that. For all we know Zimmer told Cousins to protect the ball and avoid taking chances, and thus you get a larger percentage of check downs.

Lastly on the mechanics, poor or inconsistent footwork is the bane of all QBs at all levels. There are very few QBs who can throw accurately and consistently with any velocity who haven't mastered their footwork. When I watch Warner's examples of Cousin's footwork in this video I agree with Warner that Cousins is setting up to make one throw, but pulls away from that throw at the last second to try to make a different throw. Could be panic, could be coaching, could be a lack of confidence or trust in his ability I suppose. Whatever it is, Cousins needs to go with his instinct if he sets his feet to make a throw. Or, if he can't trust his instinct, maybe try to retrain himself to move or scramble instead of try to throw off-balance to someone else. That might not go any better for him, but it at least gives him a chance to reset and possibly make a better throw elsewhere.

None of my comments should be read as justifying poor plays. Every QB has his share of poor plays, and nobody will be perfect all of the time. Cousins is no exception. I'm just trying to list additional factors that might contribute to or help explain those results that are beyond the control of the QB.

Thanks again for posting this Victorious.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:09 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:18 am Understand this is a lowlight reel so of course Kirk will look bad. I can't argue with any of what Warner showed and said.
The biggest complaint Warner has with Kirk is he settles for the check down pass too often. Warner is generally right in every example he shows, but that said Kirk still has an average depth of target among the higher QBs in the league. It's easy to pick out plays that didn't work and say what should have been different. It does show room for Kirk to improve and I hope he does.
First thing I thought watching this was, can the Vikings somehow entice Warner to be Kirk's spiritual QB coach? :)

I like the way Warner breaks things down, both in terms of the plays themselves but also in terms of the thought process behind how a QB must diagnose the play. Really insightful and while Warner makes it sound pretty straightforward, it is a lot of things to recognize and react to in quick succession all while being rushed from multiple angles. I think an analysis like this underscores why so few college QBs end up being successful in the pros regardless of their physical attributes or even college careers. There is a lot going on and if a guy can't read and execute rapidly, he's not going to succeed. Not saying I got that Cousins can't do that - there is evidence he can, but this underscores how important that ability to do that on every play is, and it is true that Cousins hasn't consistently handled that.

Another thing I got from watching this that Warner didn't point out was the QB's confidence in his offensive line. Why might Cousins be jittery on some plays or against some teams? It might be because he's not confident his blockers will protect him.

Warner also didn't mention the influence of coaching when analyzing what Cousins was doing on these plays. Warner wants Cousins to be aggressive and attempt the deeper throws. Maybe Zimmer didn't want that. For all we know Zimmer told Cousins to protect the ball and avoid taking chances, and thus you get a larger percentage of check downs.

Lastly on the mechanics, poor or inconsistent footwork is the bane of all QBs at all levels. There are very few QBs who can throw accurately and consistently with any velocity who haven't mastered their footwork. When I watch Warner's examples of Cousin's footwork in this video I agree with Warner that Cousins is setting up to make one throw, but pulls away from that throw at the last second to try to make a different throw. Could be panic, could be coaching, could be a lack of confidence or trust in his ability I suppose. Whatever it is, Cousins needs to go with his instinct if he sets his feet to make a throw. Or, if he can't trust his instinct, maybe try to retrain himself to move or scramble instead of try to throw off-balance to someone else. That might not go any better for him, but it at least gives him a chance to reset and possibly make a better throw elsewhere.

None of my comments should be read as justifying poor plays. Every QB has his share of poor plays, and nobody will be perfect all of the time. Cousins is no exception. I'm just trying to list additional factors that might contribute to or help explain those results that are beyond the control of the QB.

Thanks again for posting this Victorious.
Great comment and you're welcome.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:09 pm
allday1991 wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:09 pm

Doesn’t Brady check down the most? Pretty sure I seen that stat, which alone should eliminate talk that checking down to means you can’t win.
Cousins doesn't check down much either or he wouldn't be 9th in yards per attempt in the NFL. Yards per attempt is a stat I like a lot. Average Depth of target is probably a better stat for this, but I'm having a little trouble finding it. I'll update this post when I do.

I found it I think. It was on RotoWire and you had to be a member to unlock all the stats. From what I found Stafford was 1st at 8.9, Cousins was 5th at 8.4, Brady was 7th. Future hall of famers Rodgers and Mahomes were at 7.7 Stump since this is a deep dive stat could you double check this stat and let me know if it is wrong? I'll take a look at your reply. Please don't let me know about any even deeper stats. Here's the link I used.

https://www.rotowire.com/football/playe ... e=advanced

Another cool stat I found there was sack %. Brady almost never got sacked. 3%. Cousins was pretty good despite the IMO very poor line play he received at 4.8%. Burrow got Sacked by far the most. I honestly hope that improves as I want to see him have a nice long career.

JJ you choose to believe Myths. How about using your brain instead of parroting these myths and distortions?
Cousins was 9th in ADOT at 8.5 in a virtual tie with Bridgewater, Brady, Wentz and Burrow. Wilson was #1 at 10.2, Jackson #2 at 10.0.

ADOT isn't a real meaningful stat for check downs though, since a good portion of the time throwing short is either the designed play or 100% the right move. You need to look at how often the QB throws short of the sticks on 3rd down and Cousins throughout 2021 checked down (threw short of the sticks) the 14th most among QBs with 200 attempts or more.

Worse yet, when facing a team above .500 he goes from 14th to 5th in that stat, meaning when the team needs him to make a play to beat a good team, he does it far less often.

So while people might not remember how he was super aggressive in those games against losing teams where he threw past the sticks 74% of the time on 3rd down in games the team didn't really need him to play all that great, they do remember when the team needed him to convert a 3rd to win against a good team and instead he checked down 65% of the time.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

StumpHunter wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:10 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:09 pm
Cousins doesn't check down much either or he wouldn't be 9th in yards per attempt in the NFL. Yards per attempt is a stat I like a lot. Average Depth of target is probably a better stat for this, but I'm having a little trouble finding it. I'll update this post when I do.

I found it I think. It was on RotoWire and you had to be a member to unlock all the stats. From what I found Stafford was 1st at 8.9, Cousins was 5th at 8.4, Brady was 7th. Future hall of famers Rodgers and Mahomes were at 7.7 Stump since this is a deep dive stat could you double check this stat and let me know if it is wrong? I'll take a look at your reply. Please don't let me know about any even deeper stats. Here's the link I used.

https://www.rotowire.com/football/playe ... e=advanced

Another cool stat I found there was sack %. Brady almost never got sacked. 3%. Cousins was pretty good despite the IMO very poor line play he received at 4.8%. Burrow got Sacked by far the most. I honestly hope that improves as I want to see him have a nice long career.

JJ you choose to believe Myths. How about using your brain instead of parroting these myths and distortions?
Cousins was 9th in ADOT at 8.5 in a virtual tie with Bridgewater, Brady, Wentz and Burrow. Wilson was #1 at 10.2, Jackson #2 at 10.0.

ADOT isn't a real meaningful stat for check downs though, since a good portion of the time throwing short is either the designed play or 100% the right move. You need to look at how often the QB throws short of the sticks on 3rd down and Cousins throughout 2021 checked down (threw short of the sticks) the 14th most among QBs with 200 attempts or more.

Worse yet, when facing a team above .500 he goes from 14th to 5th in that stat, meaning when the team needs him to make a play to beat a good team, he does it far less often.

So while people might not remember how he was super aggressive in those games against losing teams where he threw past the sticks 74% of the time on 3rd down in games the team didn't really need him to play all that great, they do remember when the team needed him to convert a 3rd to win against a good team and instead he checked down 65% of the time.
I should have known better than reading your comment. Once again you dug DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP to find the stats that you needed. I'm wondering if you are just making up those stats. It's hard to believe they even exist. 9th in ADOT isn't a check down Charlie.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:40 am
StumpHunter wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:10 pm
Cousins was 9th in ADOT at 8.5 in a virtual tie with Bridgewater, Brady, Wentz and Burrow. Wilson was #1 at 10.2, Jackson #2 at 10.0.

ADOT isn't a real meaningful stat for check downs though, since a good portion of the time throwing short is either the designed play or 100% the right move. You need to look at how often the QB throws short of the sticks on 3rd down and Cousins throughout 2021 checked down (threw short of the sticks) the 14th most among QBs with 200 attempts or more.

Worse yet, when facing a team above .500 he goes from 14th to 5th in that stat, meaning when the team needs him to make a play to beat a good team, he does it far less often.

So while people might not remember how he was super aggressive in those games against losing teams where he threw past the sticks 74% of the time on 3rd down in games the team didn't really need him to play all that great, they do remember when the team needed him to convert a 3rd to win against a good team and instead he checked down 65% of the time.
I should have known better than reading your comment. Once again you dug DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP to find the stats that you needed. I'm wondering if you are just making up those stats. It's hard to believe they even exist. 9th in ADOT isn't a check down Charlie.
In a discussion about the QB checking down when he shouldn't I posted the stat that proves Kirk checks down when he shouldn't. My bad.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:39 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:40 am
I should have known better than reading your comment. Once again you dug DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP to find the stats that you needed. I'm wondering if you are just making up those stats. It's hard to believe they even exist. 9th in ADOT isn't a check down Charlie.
In a discussion about the QB checking down when he shouldn't I posted the stat that proves Kirk checks down when he shouldn't. My bad.
You found a stat, if you didn't make it up, that supported your preconceived disdain for Cousins while ignoring every stat that didn't support your opinion. I'm starting to suspect and actually believe many of the stats you have shared here are made up. You ignored my request to not dig deep in the bolded part of my comment to you. ADOT is already digging deep to begin with. Prove that Kirk throws past the sticks on 74% of his 3rd down passes against losing teams, but only 35% against winning teams. I think I'm not going to bother replying to anything you have to say anymore even when you're quoted.
Last edited by VikingsVictorious on Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

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allday1991 wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:09 pm
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 1:34 pm

This is why some of us dont worship him. And why he is called Captain Checkdown. The guy has the skills but he cant handle the idea of an int or a pick6. Maybe if the Oline is as good as a lot seem to think it is, he wont have to check it down so much.
Doesn’t Brady check down the most? Pretty sure I seen that stat, which alone should eliminate talk that checking down to means you can’t win.
Comparing Cousins to Brady? Really? And it doesnt really matter to Vikings how many check downs Brady throws. I couldnt care less. I just hope Cousins has a great short game, with the occasions 10-20 yard pass. At home, with Cook and Cousins running things, we have hope for a good opener. I just hope the Oline is ready.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:40 am
StumpHunter wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:10 pm
Cousins was 9th in ADOT at 8.5 in a virtual tie with Bridgewater, Brady, Wentz and Burrow. Wilson was #1 at 10.2, Jackson #2 at 10.0.

ADOT isn't a real meaningful stat for check downs though, since a good portion of the time throwing short is either the designed play or 100% the right move. You need to look at how often the QB throws short of the sticks on 3rd down and Cousins throughout 2021 checked down (threw short of the sticks) the 14th most among QBs with 200 attempts or more.

Worse yet, when facing a team above .500 he goes from 14th to 5th in that stat, meaning when the team needs him to make a play to beat a good team, he does it far less often.

So while people might not remember how he was super aggressive in those games against losing teams where he threw past the sticks 74% of the time on 3rd down in games the team didn't really need him to play all that great, they do remember when the team needed him to convert a 3rd to win against a good team and instead he checked down 65% of the time.
I should have known better than reading your comment. Once again you dug DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP to find the stats that you needed. I'm wondering if you are just making up those stats. It's hard to believe they even exist. 9th in ADOT isn't a check down Charlie.
It's the same stuff over and over. This has been covered. Since some feel Cousins can't throw a football I found this again. Deep passing is one of Cousins’ strongest skill sets. In the last four years, Cousins leads the NFL in completions of 25 yards or more (171 such completions). Tom Brady is the next-closest man to Cousins in this metric with 165. A player cannot humanly lead the league in a deep-ball passing parameter such as this – only to be panned as a small-ball or dink-and-dunk thrower of the football. It egregiously disregards common sense. A player can utilize checkdown valves but still heave the ball with success. In fact, good quarterbacks can handle both assignments.
QBs don't play as well against the better teams as they do stiffs. Even Brady the best ever plays worse against the top teams. I pullled the stats before. As for winning? Jimmy G has one of the best playoff records. I posted that before. Is he a great QB? Maybe so. We'll find out this year if he ever gets back in which could happen.
Coaching plays a role also. Last year for about a month Ham was the check down guy. That's a joke. We have other players. That was the great Kubesteak in action. Notice he is no longer a coach? Never will be either. He's rubbing balls in Denver now thanks to daddy. Him being an OC was a favor from Zim. No more than that.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:25 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:40 am
I should have known better than reading your comment. Once again you dug DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP to find the stats that you needed. I'm wondering if you are just making up those stats. It's hard to believe they even exist. 9th in ADOT isn't a check down Charlie.
It's the same stuff over and over. This has been covered. Since some feel Cousins can't throw a football I found this again. Deep passing is one of Cousins’ strongest skill sets. In the last four years, Cousins leads the NFL in completions of 25 yards or more (171 such completions). Tom Brady is the next-closest man to Cousins in this metric with 165. A player cannot humanly lead the league in a deep-ball passing parameter such as this – only to be panned as a small-ball or dink-and-dunk thrower of the football. It egregiously disregards common sense. A player can utilize checkdown valves but still heave the ball with success. In fact, good quarterbacks can handle both assignments.
QBs don't play as well against the better teams as they do stiffs. Even Brady the best ever plays worse against the top teams. I pullled the stats before. As for winning? Jimmy G has one of the best playoff records. I posted that before. Is he a great QB? Maybe so. We'll find out this year if he ever gets back in which could happen.
Coaching plays a role also. Last year for about a month Ham was the check down guy. That's a joke. We have other players. That was the great Kubesteak in action. Notice he is no longer a coach? Never will be either. He's rubbing balls in Denver now thanks to daddy. Him being an OC was a favor from Zim. No more than that.
Brilliant post.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:37 am
CharVike wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 10:25 am
It's the same stuff over and over. This has been covered. Since some feel Cousins can't throw a football I found this again. Deep passing is one of Cousins’ strongest skill sets. In the last four years, Cousins leads the NFL in completions of 25 yards or more (171 such completions). Tom Brady is the next-closest man to Cousins in this metric with 165. A player cannot humanly lead the league in a deep-ball passing parameter such as this – only to be panned as a small-ball or dink-and-dunk thrower of the football. It egregiously disregards common sense. A player can utilize checkdown valves but still heave the ball with success. In fact, good quarterbacks can handle both assignments.
QBs don't play as well against the better teams as they do stiffs. Even Brady the best ever plays worse against the top teams. I pullled the stats before. As for winning? Jimmy G has one of the best playoff records. I posted that before. Is he a great QB? Maybe so. We'll find out this year if he ever gets back in which could happen.
Coaching plays a role also. Last year for about a month Ham was the check down guy. That's a joke. We have other players. That was the great Kubesteak in action. Notice he is no longer a coach? Never will be either. He's rubbing balls in Denver now thanks to daddy. Him being an OC was a favor from Zim. No more than that.
Brilliant post.
Yeah, he did a really good job debunking a claim no one made.