Top Tier QB's

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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by phantom »

phantom wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:40 pm
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:01 pm

I do too. But some fans thought it was just Case being lucky.
Everyone has gotten some luck to win.
Plus nobody can get that lucky
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:22 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:55 pm
I think you are coming at this from the mindset that KAM's #1 priority over anything else is to build a SB caliber team. If his #1 goal isn't that, and is to simply not lose 9+ games a season, then this move makes perfect sense. Kirk is a limited QB who is consistent enough to avoid bottoming out, and that more than anything is why Kirk was extended.

We know this because in that same article KAM essentially admits he does not think this team is just a piece or two away from competing for a SB which is why he did not go full Rams mode on it, trading away picks to win now and instead go with this stupid competitive rebuild plan that keeps the team out of the gutter but doesn't actually do anything to get them to competing for a SB.
I can't imagine the Wilfs would fire Spielman only to hire a GM who aspires to just not lose more than he wins. I really hope that isn't the case.

I wonder what happens if this team ekes out another 8 win season and misses the playoffs yet again... Do you think that will force the team to aggressively move on players finally? We know the Wilfs won't blame themselves for that outcome and they certainly won't blame KAM or KOC, both of whom came to them with built-in excuses for underperformance in their first year in their respective jobs. The great Axe of Accountability would almost certainly have nowhere to fall at that point other than on the necks of the expensive vets, and Cousins would have to be the vet at the front of that line, right?
I don't think it is a GM issue, I think it is an ownership issue. They don't want to take a step back to win big in the future, and would prefer being consistently average to being bad for a season or two while the team rebuilds. I think this stems from them seeing what the Giants did to win their SBs and instead of seeing that as the exception that proves the rule, they see it as a way to success, ignoring that virtually no other team in the modern era has won it all that way.

This is why they say things like their "#1 goal is to take back the division" instead of their #1 goal being to win the SB. They want to make the playoffs and see what happens instead of attempt to build a consistent championship caliber team.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

phantom wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:37 am
phantom wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:40 pm

Everyone has gotten some luck to win.
Plus nobody can get that lucky
Case had an amazing season for us and I was in favor of resigning him rather than bringing in Cousins. Case has never been good since and it's very questionable if he would have played well for us again, but I thought he earned the shot at it.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:20 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:08 am Wow, even our own GM feels Kirk is a step below what is needed:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... k-cousins/

I wonder why KAM extended Cousins if he doesn't believe in him? If he truly believes Cousins can't get the team over the bar, why not trade him this past offseason for some draft capital and take a swing in the draft? Or even just let him play out his prior deal which would have ended the team's financial obligation to him after this year?

By extending him, one would think that was done because KAM believed in his ability to elevate the team. Very confusing, almost contradictory comments from the new GM of the Vikings. I'm still willing to give KAM some runway here to show results, but after watching some of the deals he made in this past draft and now reading comments like these, I'm starting to think that he really has no idea what he's doing.
The big concern is why this guy was hired as the GM in the first place. He has done nothing so far that hasn't been done here for decades. Same #### different year. That process has created a half baked roster. We are ranked middle of the road talent wise.
Here is a quote from the so called genius.
“There is a threshold of championship talent,” Adofo-Mensah said. “I study these things. I know them. And if you don’t have them, you don’t win. That’s very binary.
Him and this binary BS is getting old. Human brains don't work in a binary mode. That's how a CPU works. 1's and 0's. Basically what he is saying is you need the most top level players on your roster or you can't compete. So we have zero chance to even compete in our GMs view. Moron Mensah should be canned right now. To win you will need to beat teams that have more talented rosters. That's called getting the most out of each guy. No team can win unless you have Brady or Mahomes or Rodgers in his view. Moron Mensah needs to close his eyes and get the hell out of the way. He provides nothing to our team. He already threw the towel in and gave up on the season and it didn't even start. What a loser and that spreads top down. Hopefully fans don't pay to watch a team that our GM has already said has zero chance to compete because our talent level isn't the best.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:41 pm
VikingLord wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:20 pm

I wonder why KAM extended Cousins if he doesn't believe in him? If he truly believes Cousins can't get the team over the bar, why not trade him this past offseason for some draft capital and take a swing in the draft? Or even just let him play out his prior deal which would have ended the team's financial obligation to him after this year?

By extending him, one would think that was done because KAM believed in his ability to elevate the team. Very confusing, almost contradictory comments from the new GM of the Vikings. I'm still willing to give KAM some runway here to show results, but after watching some of the deals he made in this past draft and now reading comments like these, I'm starting to think that he really has no idea what he's doing.
The big concern is why this guy was hired as the GM in the first place. He has done nothing so far that hasn't been done here for decades. Same #### different year. That process has created a half baked roster. We are ranked middle of the road talent wise.
Here is a quote from the so called genius.
“There is a threshold of championship talent,” Adofo-Mensah said. “I study these things. I know them. And if you don’t have them, you don’t win. That’s very binary.
Him and this binary BS is getting old. Human brains don't work in a binary mode. That's how a CPU works. 1's and 0's. Basically what he is saying is you need the most top level players on your roster or you can't compete. So we have zero chance to even compete in our GMs view. Moron Mensah should be canned right now. To win you will need to beat teams that have more talented rosters. That's called getting the most out of each guy. No team can win unless you have Brady or Mahomes or Rodgers in his view. Moron Mensah needs to close his eyes and get the hell out of the way. He provides nothing to our team. He already threw the towel in and gave up on the season and it didn't even start. What a loser and that spreads top down. Hopefully fans don't pay to watch a team that our GM has already said has zero chance to compete because our talent level isn't the best.
I'm not much of a KAM fan and even I think you are way over the top with this stance. I don't think he has given up like you think. You're portrayal of him is more straw man than reality.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by phantom »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:25 pm
phantom wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:37 am

Plus nobody can get that lucky
Case had an amazing season for us and I was in favor of resigning him rather than bringing in Cousins. Case has never been good since and it's very questionable if he would have played well for us again, but I thought he earned the shot at it.
Nope no Guarantee Case would have done better. I am sure I would be just as disappointed if they didn't maintain it.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:11 pm
CharVike wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:41 pm
The big concern is why this guy was hired as the GM in the first place. He has done nothing so far that hasn't been done here for decades. Same #### different year. That process has created a half baked roster. We are ranked middle of the road talent wise.
Here is a quote from the so called genius.
“There is a threshold of championship talent,” Adofo-Mensah said. “I study these things. I know them. And if you don’t have them, you don’t win. That’s very binary.
Him and this binary BS is getting old. Human brains don't work in a binary mode. That's how a CPU works. 1's and 0's. Basically what he is saying is you need the most top level players on your roster or you can't compete. So we have zero chance to even compete in our GMs view. Moron Mensah should be canned right now. To win you will need to beat teams that have more talented rosters. That's called getting the most out of each guy. No team can win unless you have Brady or Mahomes or Rodgers in his view. Moron Mensah needs to close his eyes and get the hell out of the way. He provides nothing to our team. He already threw the towel in and gave up on the season and it didn't even start. What a loser and that spreads top down. Hopefully fans don't pay to watch a team that our GM has already said has zero chance to compete because our talent level isn't the best.
I'm not much of a KAM fan and even I think you are way over the top with this stance. I don't think he has given up like you think. You're portrayal of him is more straw man than reality.
He's back tracking today. But I don't really care what this guy thinks. If he has half a brain he would just shut up. I think we will have a good season mainly because of our coach and the staff he put together. You don't need the most talented roster. You need to get the most out of every player. Not 1 or 2 but all of them. Plus health is key. If a few top guys go down it's over.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingLord »

CharVike wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:41 pm The big concern is why this guy was hired as the GM in the first place. He has done nothing so far that hasn't been done here for decades. Same #### different year. That process has created a half baked roster. We are ranked middle of the road talent wise.
Here is a quote from the so called genius.
“There is a threshold of championship talent,” Adofo-Mensah said. “I study these things. I know them. And if you don’t have them, you don’t win. That’s very binary.
Him and this binary BS is getting old. Human brains don't work in a binary mode. That's how a CPU works. 1's and 0's. Basically what he is saying is you need the most top level players on your roster or you can't compete. So we have zero chance to even compete in our GMs view. Moron Mensah should be canned right now. To win you will need to beat teams that have more talented rosters. That's called getting the most out of each guy. No team can win unless you have Brady or Mahomes or Rodgers in his view. Moron Mensah needs to close his eyes and get the hell out of the way. He provides nothing to our team. He already threw the towel in and gave up on the season and it didn't even start. What a loser and that spreads top down. Hopefully fans don't pay to watch a team that our GM has already said has zero chance to compete because our talent level isn't the best.
To be fair to KAM, the team the Vikings are trotting out there this year is in large part the same team they trotted out there the last two years, and the players on those teams haven't been known for their ability to compete in the postseason. As to why he took that approach and kept things largely stable, for all we know the Wilfs tied one hand behind his back by insisting on a "competitive rebuild" and KAM agreed not to make aggressive moves to see if that approach would work for this season. While I took his original comments as a swipe at Cousins, I'm seeing them now more as a possible indication he doesn't feel a competitive rebuild can produce the desired results. It might be more a swipe at the Wilfs, or at least an acknowledgment he has concrete ideas on what he's going to do next offseason already. If true, that is a good thing, I guess.

Maybe I'm just rationalizing, but I'm trying to think of reasonable ways to explain some of his statements and moves thus far. I find it hard to believe he could get hired as the GM of a pro football team if he's truly a moron. On the flip side, he might be better off letting his moves do his talking, because some of the stuff he says certainly isn't being received in the way he likely intends.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

CharVike wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:41 pm
Him and this binary BS is getting old.
You mean binary BS like this?
Everything starts at the LOS.
When a team loses the LOS battle they typically don't win.
They understand that everything starts at the LOS
Everything starts at the LOS and works back
IMO it all starts at the LOS. You need to win that battle or your chances of getting a win become very slim.
Just a small sample of you claiming the key to success in the NFL is the LOS and that not controlling it means you don't win. A very binary take that a lot of us are guilty of admittedly.

KAM did not say you need a QB like Mahomes or Brady to win it all, he said that gives you the best chance and arguing otherwise means you haven't watched football the past two decades. He has looked at the data, seen patterns emerge with each and every SB winning team and realized the current Vikings' roster doesn't have everything it needs. The same thing all but the most delusional Vikings fans have done.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:55 am Just a small sample of you claiming the key to success in the NFL is the LOS and that not controlling it means you don't win. A very binary take that a lot of us are guilty of admittedly.
Either you're guilty or you're not...

:rofl:

There is something in human nature that seeks simplicity. Comprehending complex situations requires a lot of effort and brainpower, and when most of our ancestors were worried about finding their next meal or avoiding being something else's next meal, it's understandable why we boil things down. Like you say, we're all prone to it and guilty of it, myself included, and not just when it comes to our favorite pro football team.
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:55 am He has looked at the data, seen patterns emerge with each and every SB winning team and realized the current Vikings' roster doesn't have everything it needs.
If I didn't know better, are you saying that the 2022 Vikings don't have everything they need to win the Superbowl this year?

Looks like I picked the wrong year to stop sniffin' glue...

:ripple:

Just trying to be humorous. It's too early in the season to be serious.

But I will say, it's just odds, which is what I think you're saying and KAM likely agrees with. Having better overall players or a better QB just increases the odds of winning a Superbowl, while having lesser players or a worse QB just reduces them relative to the other teams in the league. If all teams had on net the same quality level of player at each position, each team would have a 1/32 chance of winning a Superbowl at the start of every season. Teams that have better players at more critical positions increase those odds relative to the "standard equal" team, but so do teams that avoid injuries to key players, or obtain more out of a drafted or acquired player than expected. And there is always the chance, however remote, that KOC finds a way to unlock "Beast Mode" Kirk this year, or the players just believe more in him or respond better to him and play at a higher overall level as a result. There is a chance that Hunter and Smith stay healthy all year and open a personal injury firm specializing in QB pain, fear and suffering about 7 yards behind the offensive line of scrimmage. There is a chance the Vikings OL finally puts together a complete season and their offensive skill players all stay healthy all year.

None of this is likely to happen, but if it were to happen, I think even KAM would agree the Vikings should end up in the Superbowl.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by CharVike »

VikingLord wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:27 pm
CharVike wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:41 pm The big concern is why this guy was hired as the GM in the first place. He has done nothing so far that hasn't been done here for decades. Same #### different year. That process has created a half baked roster. We are ranked middle of the road talent wise.
Here is a quote from the so called genius.
“There is a threshold of championship talent,” Adofo-Mensah said. “I study these things. I know them. And if you don’t have them, you don’t win. That’s very binary.
Him and this binary BS is getting old. Human brains don't work in a binary mode. That's how a CPU works. 1's and 0's. Basically what he is saying is you need the most top level players on your roster or you can't compete. So we have zero chance to even compete in our GMs view. Moron Mensah should be canned right now. To win you will need to beat teams that have more talented rosters. That's called getting the most out of each guy. No team can win unless you have Brady or Mahomes or Rodgers in his view. Moron Mensah needs to close his eyes and get the hell out of the way. He provides nothing to our team. He already threw the towel in and gave up on the season and it didn't even start. What a loser and that spreads top down. Hopefully fans don't pay to watch a team that our GM has already said has zero chance to compete because our talent level isn't the best.
To be fair to KAM, the team the Vikings are trotting out there this year is in large part the same team they trotted out there the last two years, and the players on those teams haven't been known for their ability to compete in the postseason. As to why he took that approach and kept things largely stable, for all we know the Wilfs tied one hand behind his back by insisting on a "competitive rebuild" and KAM agreed not to make aggressive moves to see if that approach would work for this season. While I took his original comments as a swipe at Cousins, I'm seeing them now more as a possible indication he doesn't feel a competitive rebuild can produce the desired results. It might be more a swipe at the Wilfs, or at least an acknowledgment he has concrete ideas on what he's going to do next offseason already. If true, that is a good thing, I guess.

Maybe I'm just rationalizing, but I'm trying to think of reasonable ways to explain some of his statements and moves thus far. I find it hard to believe he could get hired as the GM of a pro football team if he's truly a moron. On the flip side, he might be better off letting his moves do his talking, because some of the stuff he says certainly isn't being received in the way he likely intends.
I agree let the moves do the talking. IMO the Wilf's would like to see their team win the whole thing. Is that the most important thing to them? Of course not. They may have told KAM to keep most of the core team together. Their team was tied with the Chiefs at 100.4 pct full for home attendance. That was 1st in the NFL. So there is no reason to strip this team down to nothing. The product is good enough to draw many fans for entertainment. That's what it's all about anyway. He's not a moron. There are only 32 GM jobs available and he has one of them. I won't take that away from him. The Bengal team was given very little chance to make the SB because very few felt the entire roster was good enough. Last season odds showed that. But they were able to do it. They held the best young QB to nothing in the 2nd half of the champ game. Their D stepped up when it was needed. Our team played both SB teams last year and after both those games I didn't think either team was that great. Yes they beat us but we did many things to shoot ourselves in the foot both games.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by CharVike »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:55 am
CharVike wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:41 pm
Him and this binary BS is getting old.
You mean binary BS like this?
Everything starts at the LOS.
When a team loses the LOS battle they typically don't win.
They understand that everything starts at the LOS
Everything starts at the LOS and works back
IMO it all starts at the LOS. You need to win that battle or your chances of getting a win become very slim.
Just a small sample of you claiming the key to success in the NFL is the LOS and that not controlling it means you don't win. A very binary take that a lot of us are guilty of admittedly.

KAM did not say you need a QB like Mahomes or Brady to win it all, he said that gives you the best chance and arguing otherwise means you haven't watched football the past two decades. He has looked at the data, seen patterns emerge with each and every SB winning team and realized the current Vikings' roster doesn't have everything it needs. The same thing all but the most delusional Vikings fans have done.
Your thought is that the LOS has nothing to do with the game. You already informed me of that. I think it's very important. If it wasn't no team would ever pick a LOS player early in the draft. I'm surprised when Booth JR. picked off loser Kirk during practice you didn't suggest your guy Cam "the scam" be brought in to right the ship as you did before. He's still out there telling everybody how great he is. If in fact KAM did look at the data that does not mean he understood it. He should be testing his algorithm in an aggressive manner. A one off test isn't good enough to ensure it's bug free.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

CharVike wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:14 am
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:55 am
You mean binary BS like this?











Just a small sample of you claiming the key to success in the NFL is the LOS and that not controlling it means you don't win. A very binary take that a lot of us are guilty of admittedly.

KAM did not say you need a QB like Mahomes or Brady to win it all, he said that gives you the best chance and arguing otherwise means you haven't watched football the past two decades. He has looked at the data, seen patterns emerge with each and every SB winning team and realized the current Vikings' roster doesn't have everything it needs. The same thing all but the most delusional Vikings fans have done.
Your thought is that the LOS has nothing to do with the game. You already informed me of that. I think it's very important. If it wasn't no team would ever pick a LOS player early in the draft.
Missed the point, but that isn't unusual.

Maybe you can find some quotes of me saying the LOS has nothing to do with the game?

I'm surprised when Booth JR. picked off loser Kirk during practice you didn't suggest your guy Cam "the scam" be brought in to right the ship as you did before. He's still out there telling everybody how great he is.
I think Dantzler is completely overrated by fans and PFF so I am not sure where this is coming from. I might be the most negative on Cam Dantzler on here.
If in fact KAM did look at the data that does not mean he understood it. He should be testing his algorithm in an aggressive manner. A one off test isn't good enough to ensure it's bug free.
The tests are every SB that has ever been won. He has lots of test cases and they all point to one thing: You need a really good team to win the SB, and if you don't have a great QB you need an even better one, and this team is not that good.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by phantom »

StumpHunter wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:28 am
CharVike wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:14 am
Your thought is that the LOS has nothing to do with the game. You already informed me of that. I think it's very important. If it wasn't no team would ever pick a LOS player early in the draft.
Missed the point, but that isn't unusual.

Maybe you can find some quotes of me saying the LOS has nothing to do with the game?

I'm surprised when Booth JR. picked off loser Kirk during practice you didn't suggest your guy Cam "the scam" be brought in to right the ship as you did before. He's still out there telling everybody how great he is.
I think Dantzler is completely overrated by fans and PFF so I am not sure where this is coming from. I might be the most negative on Cam Dantzler on here.
If in fact KAM did look at the data that does not mean he understood it. He should be testing his algorithm in an aggressive manner. A one off test isn't good enough to ensure it's bug free.
The tests are every SB that has ever been won. He has lots of test cases and they all point to one thing: You need a really good team to win the SB, and if you don't have a great QB you need an even better one, and this team is not that good.
I would say the majority of Super Bowls have been one by Hall of Fame QB's.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

phantom wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:18 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:28 am
Missed the point, but that isn't unusual.

Maybe you can find some quotes of me saying the LOS has nothing to do with the game?



I think Dantzler is completely overrated by fans and PFF so I am not sure where this is coming from. I might be the most negative on Cam Dantzler on here.


The tests are every SB that has ever been won. He has lots of test cases and they all point to one thing: You need a really good team to win the SB, and if you don't have a great QB you need an even better one, and this team is not that good.
I would say the majority of Super Bowls have been one by Hall of Fame QB's.
I just did a count and so far 28 of the 56 Super Bowls the QB on the winning team is in the HOF. That's not counting the Brady, Big Ben, Eli Manning, A Rodgers, Wilson or Pat Mahomes teams. Brady is a certain HoFer and the others have a good shot at it so that number will grow. If not for being on the winning team in the Super Bowl Eli wouldn't even be in consideration. Is Eli truly great or just happened to be in the right place at the right time?
Another count has a total of 32 different QBs to play on the Super Bowl winner in it's 56 years. That means 24 of the Super Bowl winners featured a repeating QB.