Top Tier QB's

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 625

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

phantom wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:19 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:31 pm

Stafford took over a 0-16 team, big difference from taking over a 13-3 Super Bowl contender. Cousins and Cousins Camp got faced when Stafford got a Super Bowl contender an won the 1st year. One of the desired and expected results when Cousins got here. He could run the Offense better and keep the ball rolling. He got everything he wanted for X-mas in 2018.
I provided the numbers. Kirk comes out ahead of Stafford and quite easily. Since you like W/L and consider W/L to be on the QB Cousins comes out well ahead in that stat also.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 625

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

JJBreaksRecords wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:57 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:46 am

I have seen a lot of Viking homers before. Theres even those that try and project everything, their anger, right back, thinking that makes a valid argument. Congrats VV, you are more of one than PA. At least he gets paid for it.

Have to remember to proofread.*
Nothing homer about Cousins having been a better QB than Stafford throughout their careers. Stats and W/L document that very easily.
User avatar
phantom
Backup
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:40 pm
x 5

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by phantom »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:06 pm
JJBreaksRecords wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:57 pm

Nothing homer about Cousins having been a better QB than Stafford throughout their careers. Stats and W/L document that very easily.
I guess your going to ignore the fact I said there a big difference. If you think the League values Kirk as much as Stafford or Wilson, The Vikes would have got as much for him if they wanted. Instead the Vikes have to pick up 10 million of his contract just to trade him and you think your making a good point. Lets compare Cousins to Brady and P. Manning, the good throw 1st QB's who know how to win. Instead of making bad points in comparing Cousins to a Guy who was in a much worse situation in Det. Don't give me Cousins football card stats. Go run your fantasy team where winning doesn't matter.
User avatar
phantom
Backup
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:40 pm
x 5

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by phantom »

phantom wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:26 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:06 pm

I guess your going to ignore the fact I said there a big difference. If you think the League values Kirk as much as Stafford or Wilson, The Vikes would have got as much for him if they wanted. Instead the Vikes have to pick up 10 million of his contract just to trade him and you think your making a good point. Lets compare Cousins to Brady and P. Manning, the good throw 1st QB's who know how to win. Instead of making bad points in comparing Cousins to a Guy who was in a much worse situation in Det. Don't give me Cousins football card stats. Go run your fantasy team where winning doesn't matter.
You Cousins fans to convince yourself the 2+2=5
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 625

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

phantom wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:26 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:06 pm

I guess your going to ignore the fact I said there a big difference. If you think the League values Kirk as much as Stafford or Wilson, The Vikes would have got as much for him if they wanted. Instead the Vikes have to pick up 10 million of his contract just to trade him and you think your making a good point. Lets compare Cousins to Brady and P. Manning, the good throw 1st QB's who know how to win. Instead of making bad points in comparing Cousins to a Guy who was in a much worse situation in Det. Don't give me Cousins football card stats. Go run your fantasy team where winning doesn't matter.
You know you have NOTHING to stand on. I'm basing my stance on the facts/Stats. I'm going along with you on winning does matter so I'm also including Wins and Losses since they are so important to you. Cousins has been better in pretty much every way throughout both of their careers.
All you want to do is make EXCUSES for poor Matt because he played for Detroit. Boo Hoo waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh. Aren't Wins and losses the QBs responsibility?? Do you want some cheese with that whine? :hitfan:





Confession: I'm debating some of this in bad faith to show you all how it looks and feels. I know Stafford had tough conditions that affected his Wins and Losses. It's not excuses. It's fact. So despite him having a losing record he has always been a good QB. That stated Kirk has gone 15 and 17 over the last two years despite having what is probably the worst defense in the NFL over the last two years. That's pretty good. Not excuses. Fact. Cousins and Stafford are both good QBs and eerily similar. If Stafford can win it all under the right circumstances clearly Kirk can also. If you're a Vikings fan that should give you hope. If it's more important to hate Cousins you won't like it.
StumpHunter
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 587

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:17 pm You know you have NOTHING to stand on. I'm basing my stance on the facts/Stats. I'm going along with you on winning does matter so I'm also including Wins and Losses since they are so important to you. Cousins has been better in pretty much every way throughout both of their careers.
All you want to do is make EXCUSES for poor Matt because he played for Detroit. Boo Hoo waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh. Aren't Wins and losses the QBs responsibility?? Do you want some cheese with that whine? :hitfan:





Confession: I'm debating some of this in bad faith to show you all how it looks and feels. I know Stafford had tough conditions that affected his Wins and Losses. It's not excuses. It's fact. So despite him having a losing record he has always been a good QB. That stated Kirk has gone 15 and 17 over the last two years despite having what is probably the worst defense in the NFL over the last two years. That's pretty good. Not excuses. Fact. Cousins and Stafford are both good QBs and eerily similar. If Stafford can win it all under the right circumstances clearly Kirk can also. If you're a Vikings fan that should give you hope. If it's more important to hate Cousins you won't like it.
Here are some of Cousins tough conditions since 2015:
OCs 4 of his 7 seasons who had either won a SB in the past as a HC, won one later on or won coach of the year.
6 of 7 seasons with receivers ranked in the top 9, with his worst receiver group coming in at 16th.
An elite run game 3 of the 4 past seasons.
2 top 10 scoring defenses.
1 bottom 5 scoring defense in his entire career and only 2 bottom 10

Kirk has actually had a lot of luck with the teams he has played on, especially the talent teams have put around him on offense. Stafford played for the Lions for most of his career and won big the first time he ever played on a truly good team. The opposite of what Kirk did.
User avatar
phantom
Backup
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:40 pm
x 5

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by phantom »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:17 pm
phantom wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:26 pm
You know you have NOTHING to stand on. I'm basing my stance on the facts/Stats. I'm going along with you on winning does matter so I'm also including Wins and Losses since they are so important to you. Cousins has been better in pretty much every way throughout both of their careers.
All you want to do is make EXCUSES for poor Matt because he played for Detroit. Boo Hoo waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh. Aren't Wins and losses the QBs responsibility?? Do you want some cheese with that whine? :hitfan:





Confession: I'm debating some of this in bad faith to show you all how it looks and feels. I know Stafford had tough conditions that affected his Wins and Losses. It's not excuses. It's fact. So despite him having a losing record he has always been a good QB. That stated Kirk has gone 15 and 17 over the last two years despite having what is probably the worst defense in the NFL over the last two years. That's pretty good. Not excuses. Fact. Cousins and Stafford are both good QBs and eerily similar. If Stafford can win it all under the right circumstances clearly Kirk can also. If you're a Vikings fan that should give you hope. If it's more important to hate Cousins you won't like it.
I was just trying to have a conversation with someone about Case and you jumped in and made this about Stafford. It's not just about Stafford and the Only stats you look up. You rule out the General Point that of QB;s that win like Brady, P. Manning, Young Elway, Aikman, Farve Rogers, Montana, Bradshaw, Starbuck, Super Bowls and a bunch of winning seasons. You then deflect to Stafford. Take your Days of our Lives Cr@# somewhere else. I am not interest in reading your book and Nonsense.
User avatar
phantom
Backup
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:40 pm
x 5

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by phantom »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:10 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:17 pm You know you have NOTHING to stand on. I'm basing my stance on the facts/Stats. I'm going along with you on winning does matter so I'm also including Wins and Losses since they are so important to you. Cousins has been better in pretty much every way throughout both of their careers.
All you want to do is make EXCUSES for poor Matt because he played for Detroit. Boo Hoo waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh. Aren't Wins and losses the QBs responsibility?? Do you want some cheese with that whine? :hitfan:





Confession: I'm debating some of this in bad faith to show you all how it looks and feels. I know Stafford had tough conditions that affected his Wins and Losses. It's not excuses. It's fact. So despite him having a losing record he has always been a good QB. That stated Kirk has gone 15 and 17 over the last two years despite having what is probably the worst defense in the NFL over the last two years. That's pretty good. Not excuses. Fact. Cousins and Stafford are both good QBs and eerily similar. If Stafford can win it all under the right circumstances clearly Kirk can also. If you're a Vikings fan that should give you hope. If it's more important to hate Cousins you won't like it.
Here are some of Cousins tough conditions since 2015:
OCs 4 of his 7 seasons who had either won a SB in the past as a HC, won one later on or won coach of the year.
6 of 7 seasons with receivers ranked in the top 9, with his worst receiver group coming in at 16th.
An elite run game 3 of the 4 past seasons.
2 top 10 scoring defenses.
1 bottom 5 scoring defense in his entire career and only 2 bottom 10

Kirk has actually had a lot of luck with the teams he has played on, especially the talent teams have put around him on offense. Stafford played for the Lions for most of his career and won big the first time he ever played on a truly good team. The opposite of what Kirk did.
:thumbsup: Skol
User avatar
phantom
Backup
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:40 pm
x 5

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by phantom »

phantom wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:04 am
StumpHunter wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:10 am
Here are some of Cousins tough conditions since 2015:
OCs 4 of his 7 seasons who had either won a SB in the past as a HC, won one later on or won coach of the year.
6 of 7 seasons with receivers ranked in the top 9, with his worst receiver group coming in at 16th.
An elite run game 3 of the 4 past seasons.
2 top 10 scoring defenses.
1 bottom 5 scoring defense in his entire career and only 2 bottom 10

Kirk has actually had a lot of luck with the teams he has played on, especially the talent teams have put around him on offense. Stafford played for the Lions for most of his career and won big the first time he ever played on a truly good team. The opposite of what Kirk did.
:thumbsup: Skol
[/quote

I sure Vike Vic. will just ignore it.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 625

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

phantom wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:13 am
phantom wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:04 am

:thumbsup: Skol
[/quote

I sure Vike Vic. will just ignore it.
Nothing to ignore. Kirk has always been a better QB than Stafford. If Stafford can win the big one so can Kirk. I'm sure you would be massively disappointed if that happened. You can continue to debate in bad faith all you want, but all the evidence that you completely ignore points to Kirk being a little bit better than Stafford.
StumpHunter
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 587

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

Wow, even our own GM feels Kirk is a step below what is needed:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... k-cousins/
Kwesi Adofo-Mensah acknowledges the limitations of Kirk Cousins

The Vikings have opted to keep plenty of incumbent players in place, even with a new General Manager and head coach. However, G.M. Kwesi Adofo-Mensah admits that he at least pondered a quarterback change.

“I’ll be frank,” Adofo-Mensah told Jori Epstein of USA Today. “The one asset where you get nervous about not burning it down is quarterback.”

The General Manager acknowledges that Cousins is a “good quarterback,” but Adofo-Mensah added that “we don’t have Tom Brady . . . we don’t have Pat Mahomes.”

So is Cousins good enough?

“[The Super Bowl] is more likely to win if you have that quarterback,” Adofo-Mensah said. “It’s very unlikely to have that quarterback.”
User avatar
phantom
Backup
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:40 pm
x 5

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by phantom »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:29 am
phantom wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:13 am

Nothing to ignore. Kirk has always been a better QB than Stafford. If Stafford can win the big one so can Kirk. I'm sure you would be massively disappointed if that happened. You can continue to debate in bad faith all you want, but all the evidence that you completely ignore points to Kirk being a little bit better than Stafford.
Your entitled to your opinion, but my opinion at this point in Kirk Career, I would consider it a Fluke. Your right i am not a Cousin fan. Was not impressed his 1st 2 season. I was expecting teams that were close to 1998, 2009, 2017. To live up to that Top QB contract he signed. I was debating Stafford you are. Tom Brady 242-73, P. Manning 186-79, R. Wilson 103-53-1, Drew Brees 172-114. That's what I have been comparing him to, not just Stafford. Which I would take over Cousin any day of the Week. To bad the league doesn't value Kirk as much as Stafford and Wilson.
User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7573
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 667

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:08 am Wow, even our own GM feels Kirk is a step below what is needed:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... k-cousins/
Kwesi Adofo-Mensah acknowledges the limitations of Kirk Cousins

The Vikings have opted to keep plenty of incumbent players in place, even with a new General Manager and head coach. However, G.M. Kwesi Adofo-Mensah admits that he at least pondered a quarterback change.

“I’ll be frank,” Adofo-Mensah told Jori Epstein of USA Today. “The one asset where you get nervous about not burning it down is quarterback.”

The General Manager acknowledges that Cousins is a “good quarterback,” but Adofo-Mensah added that “we don’t have Tom Brady . . . we don’t have Pat Mahomes.”

So is Cousins good enough?

“[The Super Bowl] is more likely to win if you have that quarterback,” Adofo-Mensah said. “It’s very unlikely to have that quarterback.”
I wonder why KAM extended Cousins if he doesn't believe in him? If he truly believes Cousins can't get the team over the bar, why not trade him this past offseason for some draft capital and take a swing in the draft? Or even just let him play out his prior deal which would have ended the team's financial obligation to him after this year?

By extending him, one would think that was done because KAM believed in his ability to elevate the team. Very confusing, almost contradictory comments from the new GM of the Vikings. I'm still willing to give KAM some runway here to show results, but after watching some of the deals he made in this past draft and now reading comments like these, I'm starting to think that he really has no idea what he's doing.
StumpHunter
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 587

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingLord wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:20 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:08 am Wow, even our own GM feels Kirk is a step below what is needed:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... k-cousins/

I wonder why KAM extended Cousins if he doesn't believe in him? If he truly believes Cousins can't get the team over the bar, why not trade him this past offseason for some draft capital and take a swing in the draft? Or even just let him play out his prior deal which would have ended the team's financial obligation to him after this year?

By extending him, one would think that was done because KAM believed in his ability to elevate the team. Very confusing, almost contradictory comments from the new GM of the Vikings. I'm still willing to give KAM some runway here to show results, but after watching some of the deals he made in this past draft and now reading comments like these, I'm starting to think that he really has no idea what he's doing.
I think you are coming at this from the mindset that KAM's #1 priority over anything else is to build a SB caliber team. If his #1 goal isn't that, and is to simply not lose 9+ games a season, then this move makes perfect sense. Kirk is a limited QB who is consistent enough to avoid bottoming out, and that more than anything is why Kirk was extended.

We know this because in that same article KAM essentially admits he does not think this team is just a piece or two away from competing for a SB which is why he did not go full Rams mode on it, trading away picks to win now and instead go with this stupid competitive rebuild plan that keeps the team out of the gutter but doesn't actually do anything to get them to competing for a SB.
User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7573
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 667

Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:55 pm
VikingLord wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:20 pm

I wonder why KAM extended Cousins if he doesn't believe in him? If he truly believes Cousins can't get the team over the bar, why not trade him this past offseason for some draft capital and take a swing in the draft? Or even just let him play out his prior deal which would have ended the team's financial obligation to him after this year?

By extending him, one would think that was done because KAM believed in his ability to elevate the team. Very confusing, almost contradictory comments from the new GM of the Vikings. I'm still willing to give KAM some runway here to show results, but after watching some of the deals he made in this past draft and now reading comments like these, I'm starting to think that he really has no idea what he's doing.
I think you are coming at this from the mindset that KAM's #1 priority over anything else is to build a SB caliber team. If his #1 goal isn't that, and is to simply not lose 9+ games a season, then this move makes perfect sense. Kirk is a limited QB who is consistent enough to avoid bottoming out, and that more than anything is why Kirk was extended.

We know this because in that same article KAM essentially admits he does not think this team is just a piece or two away from competing for a SB which is why he did not go full Rams mode on it, trading away picks to win now and instead go with this stupid competitive rebuild plan that keeps the team out of the gutter but doesn't actually do anything to get them to competing for a SB.
I can't imagine the Wilfs would fire Spielman only to hire a GM who aspires to just not lose more than he wins. I really hope that isn't the case.

I wonder what happens if this team ekes out another 8 win season and misses the playoffs yet again... Do you think that will force the team to aggressively move on players finally? We know the Wilfs won't blame themselves for that outcome and they certainly won't blame KAM or KOC, both of whom came to them with built-in excuses for underperformance in their first year in their respective jobs. The great Axe of Accountability would almost certainly have nowhere to fall at that point other than on the necks of the expensive vets, and Cousins would have to be the vet at the front of that line, right?