Top Tier QB's

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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by phantom »

Frozen Rope wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:28 pm
phantom wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:01 pm

Don't post your sh&& then. Go to your cult Cousin group and preach to the choir, and figure out who else to blame when you can't make plays to put teams away. Everyone else can be doing there job, but if your QB is not making the right decisions your not going to win. He's the one throwing the ball.
You talk about a10 win season with Zimmer.
Let’s look at the Vikings last year. Cousins fumbled on the 25 yd line on a game winning drive. No wait, I’m wrong, it was Cook. Another game, all Cousins has to do is make a short chip shot FG to win it. No wait, that was Joseph. The Lions game, Cousins scores with less than a minute. He didn’t play defense. He should have been out there playing D. He’s smart enough to plant himself at the goal line. There’s your 10 win season. And you can’t compare the Z 10 win season with last years team. We had more bad players at key positions than in recent history. And Cousins was playing for a coach who has always disliked (being kind) him. I wonder if there has been a QB in NFL history who has played for 7 different OC’s in 7 years. Not even close. You can pile on all you want. I have stayed in the group chat when he’s having a bad game and said so several times over the years so don’t call me a Cousins Cult member. I’ve had some players I didn’t like but never got poisoned with pure hate. The narrative following Cousins is juiced by Simms and a few other guys. I predict, if our key players stay healthy, we will win 10 games minimum. Otherwise, I’ll take a pie to the face
You sound more like a Zimmer hater to me. Five years latter all of the sudden Zimmer hated Cousins. Cousins has been given a golden opportunity that most don't get. I don't want to hear any excuse. He's had his more than his fair share of blunders. For a guy who lines up under guard. Oh wait that was Cousins. Slides 2 yards short of the 1st down against KC to get a 1st down..real inspiring. Oh wait that was Cousins. Would want you get hurt Kirk. Kirk is for Kirk. That's what was said about him coming out of Washington. 7-37 against winning teams.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by Frozen Rope »

phantom wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:09 pm
Frozen Rope wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:28 pm
You talk about a10 win season with Zimmer.
Let’s look at the Vikings last year. Cousins fumbled on the 25 yd line on a game winning drive. No wait, I’m wrong, it was Cook. Another game, all Cousins has to do is make a short chip shot FG to win it. No wait, that was Joseph. The Lions game, Cousins scores with less than a minute. He didn’t play defense. He should have been out there playing D. He’s smart enough to plant himself at the goal line. There’s your 10 win season. And you can’t compare the Z 10 win season with last years team. We had more bad players at key positions than in recent history. And Cousins was playing for a coach who has always disliked (being kind) him. I wonder if there has been a QB in NFL history who has played for 7 different OC’s in 7 years. Not even close. You can pile on all you want. I have stayed in the group chat when he’s having a bad game and said so several times over the years so don’t call me a Cousins Cult member. I’ve had some players I didn’t like but never got poisoned with pure hate. The narrative following Cousins is juiced by Simms and a few other guys. I predict, if our key players stay healthy, we will win 10 games minimum. Otherwise, I’ll take a pie to the face
You sound more like a Zimmer hater to me. Five years latter all of the sudden Zimmer hated Cousins. Cousins has been given a golden opportunity that most don't get. I don't want to hear any excuse. He's had his more than his fair share of blunders. For a guy who lines up under guard. Oh wait that was Cousins. Slides 2 yards short of the 1st down against KC to get a 1st down..real inspiring. Oh wait that was Cousins. Would want you get hurt Kirk. Kirk is for Kirk. That's what was said about him coming out of Washington. 7-37 against winning teams.
I give you real facts on 3 losses and you come back with Cousins lines up under guard or slides 2 yards short. I’m taking games we should have won and you come back with this. Let me just say this. You have done a masterful job of convincing me I was a fool to respond to your text. I tried to have a reasonable conversation with you, but to no avail. I’m done.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

CharVike wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:42 pm
phantom wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:01 pm

Don't post your sh&& then. Go to your cult Cousin group and preach to the choir, and figure out who else to blame when you can't make plays to put teams away. Everyone else can be doing there job, but if your QB is not making the right decisions your not going to win. He's the one throwing the ball.
Basically you are saying if we had Brady the last 4 seasons a SB win would have been easy to achieve. Even with a compete piece of junk defense. That's new football knowledge for me.
The 3rd and 5th best D in DVOA and 3rd and 8th best scoring D are complete pieces of junk defenses? That's new football knowledge to me.
I never thought a team could go all the way with a junk D.
Well then you must have a real short memory. Peyton Manning won with the 30th best scoring D in 2006, Eli did it with the 24th best scoring D in 2011. Cousins has only had one D worse than 24th in scoring and never had one worse than 28th in his entire career.

More recently the 28th best scoring D nearly won the SB in 2016 and in 2018 the 28th best scoring D was in OT of the AFCCG.

A good D makes winning easier, but there have been countless examples of a good QB winning with a lousy D. Cousins just isn't in that tier of QBs which is why he loses a higher percentage of high scoring games than just about any other QB in the NFL. That is a FACT.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

Frozen Rope wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:27 pm
phantom wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 6:09 pm

You sound more like a Zimmer hater to me. Five years latter all of the sudden Zimmer hated Cousins. Cousins has been given a golden opportunity that most don't get. I don't want to hear any excuse. He's had his more than his fair share of blunders. For a guy who lines up under guard. Oh wait that was Cousins. Slides 2 yards short of the 1st down against KC to get a 1st down..real inspiring. Oh wait that was Cousins. Would want you get hurt Kirk. Kirk is for Kirk. That's what was said about him coming out of Washington. 7-37 against winning teams.
I give you real facts on 3 losses and you come back with Cousins lines up under guard or slides 2 yards short. I’m taking games we should have won and you come back with this.
I like how fans love to point out close losses and how easily they could have been wins while ignoring close wins like the ones against Detroit and Carolina and ignore that those could have just easily have gone the other way.

The QB has a little to do with only putting up 19 on arguably the worst defense in the NFL, no?
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by CharVike »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:30 pm
CharVike wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:42 pm
Basically you are saying if we had Brady the last 4 seasons a SB win would have been easy to achieve. Even with a compete piece of junk defense. That's new football knowledge for me.
The 3rd and 5th best D in DVOA and 3rd and 8th best scoring D are complete pieces of junk defenses? That's new football knowledge to me.
I never thought a team could go all the way with a junk D.
Well then you must have a real short memory. Peyton Manning won with the 30th best scoring D in 2006, Eli did it with the 24th best scoring D in 2011. Cousins has only had one D worse than 24th in scoring and never had one worse than 28th in his entire career.

More recently the 28th best scoring D nearly won the SB in 2016 and in 2018 the 28th best scoring D was in OT of the AFCCG.

A good D makes winning easier, but there have been countless examples of a good QB winning with a lousy D. Cousins just isn't in that tier of QBs which is why he loses a higher percentage of high scoring games than just about any other QB in the NFL. That is a FACT.
We already went through this. You act like these teams make the playoffs and their D gets rolled over like our No 1 did against Nick Foles in 2017. Once in the playoffs it's a new season. In 2011 that junk Giant D only allowed 17 points to Brady in the SB. This year we selected a D player round 1. Don't make much sense based on what you just posted. We are in great shape with the old vet PP as our top cover guy. Booth was a stupid pick also. Our new GM needs to refocus. We need OL and a Theilen understudy and injury replacement would have helped more.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

CharVike wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:55 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:30 pm
The 3rd and 5th best D in DVOA and 3rd and 8th best scoring D are complete pieces of junk defenses? That's new football knowledge to me.


Well then you must have a real short memory. Peyton Manning won with the 30th best scoring D in 2006, Eli did it with the 24th best scoring D in 2011. Cousins has only had one D worse than 24th in scoring and never had one worse than 28th in his entire career.

More recently the 28th best scoring D nearly won the SB in 2016 and in 2018 the 28th best scoring D was in OT of the AFCCG.

A good D makes winning easier, but there have been countless examples of a good QB winning with a lousy D. Cousins just isn't in that tier of QBs which is why he loses a higher percentage of high scoring games than just about any other QB in the NFL. That is a FACT.
We already went through this. You act like these teams make the playoffs and their D gets rolled over like our No 1 did against Nick Foles in 2017. Once in the playoffs it's a new season. In 2011 that junk Giant D only allowed 17 points to Brady in the SB. This year we selected a D player round 1. Don't make much sense based on what you just posted. We are in great shape with the old vet PP as our top cover guy. Booth was a stupid pick also. Our new GM needs to refocus. We need OL and a Theilen understudy and injury replacement would have helped more.
How was Booth a stupid pick?
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

CharVike wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:55 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:30 pm
The 3rd and 5th best D in DVOA and 3rd and 8th best scoring D are complete pieces of junk defenses? That's new football knowledge to me.


Well then you must have a real short memory. Peyton Manning won with the 30th best scoring D in 2006, Eli did it with the 24th best scoring D in 2011. Cousins has only had one D worse than 24th in scoring and never had one worse than 28th in his entire career.

More recently the 28th best scoring D nearly won the SB in 2016 and in 2018 the 28th best scoring D was in OT of the AFCCG.

A good D makes winning easier, but there have been countless examples of a good QB winning with a lousy D. Cousins just isn't in that tier of QBs which is why he loses a higher percentage of high scoring games than just about any other QB in the NFL. That is a FACT.
We already went through this. You act like these teams make the playoffs and their D gets rolled over like our No 1 did against Nick Foles in 2017.
Well if that is the measure of junk D, Brady won 6 SBs with a junk D since NE got rolled over by Nick Foles in 2017. :D
This year we selected a D player round 1. Don't make much sense based on what you just posted.
It doesn't, because I am pretty sure I wrote "A good D makes winning easier to win". With a lesser QB like the Vikings have they need a better D than most teams in the NFL to win.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Frozen Rope wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:28 pm
phantom wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:01 pm

Don't post your sh&& then. Go to your cult Cousin group and preach to the choir, and figure out who else to blame when you can't make plays to put teams away. Everyone else can be doing there job, but if your QB is not making the right decisions your not going to win. He's the one throwing the ball.
You talk about a10 win season with Zimmer.
Let’s look at the Vikings last year. Cousins fumbled on the 25 yd line on a game winning drive. No wait, I’m wrong, it was Cook. Another game, all Cousins has to do is make a short chip shot FG to win it. No wait, that was Joseph. The Lions game, Cousins scores with less than a minute. He didn’t play defense. He should have been out there playing D. He’s smart enough to plant himself at the goal line. There’s your 10 win season. And you can’t compare the Z 10 win season with last years team. We had more bad players at key positions than in recent history. And Cousins was playing for a coach who has always disliked (being kind) him. I wonder if there has been a QB in NFL history who has played for 7 different OC’s in 7 years. Not even close. You can pile on all you want. I have stayed in the group chat when he’s having a bad game and said so several times over the years so don’t call me a Cousins Cult member. I’ve had some players I didn’t like but never got poisoned with pure hate. The narrative following Cousins is juiced by Simms and a few other guys. I predict, if our key players stay healthy, we will win 10 games minimum. Otherwise, I’ll take a pie to the face
If Z and Hunter both play 17 I'm calling 11 wins minimum.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:32 am
CharVike wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:55 pm
We already went through this. You act like these teams make the playoffs and their D gets rolled over like our No 1 did against Nick Foles in 2017. Once in the playoffs it's a new season. In 2011 that junk Giant D only allowed 17 points to Brady in the SB. This year we selected a D player round 1. Don't make much sense based on what you just posted. We are in great shape with the old vet PP as our top cover guy. Booth was a stupid pick also. Our new GM needs to refocus. We need OL and a Theilen understudy and injury replacement would have helped more.
How was Booth a stupid pick?
If Booth plays well for us he was a great pick. If he doesn't play or plays poorly he was a stupid pick. Your question will be answered by 20/20 hindsight.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:47 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:32 am

How was Booth a stupid pick?
If Booth plays well for us he was a great pick. If he doesn't play or plays poorly he was a stupid pick. Your question will be answered by 20/20 hindsight.
I dont think a stupid pick is decided whether a player pans out or not in the NFL. It's about what's logical at the time of the pick and going off that players tape at the time. Booth was a highly touted corner in college and going into the draft. So you cant blame them for the pick AT THE TIME. Corner was a need, Booth was excellent in college and it made sense at the time and by the looks of it, was good value in round 2. I dont see that as a "stupid pick" whether he busts or not we cant predict that nor can the coaching staff or GM. A tackle in round 2 would be a stupid pick. Because we dont need one, have Oneill under contract and Darrisaw is only in year 2. So that wouldnt make any sense. Booth 100% made sense. I would've taken Booth at 32, let alone 42.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:44 am
Frozen Rope wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:28 pm
You talk about a10 win season with Zimmer.
Let’s look at the Vikings last year. Cousins fumbled on the 25 yd line on a game winning drive. No wait, I’m wrong, it was Cook. Another game, all Cousins has to do is make a short chip shot FG to win it. No wait, that was Joseph. The Lions game, Cousins scores with less than a minute. He didn’t play defense. He should have been out there playing D. He’s smart enough to plant himself at the goal line. There’s your 10 win season. And you can’t compare the Z 10 win season with last years team. We had more bad players at key positions than in recent history. And Cousins was playing for a coach who has always disliked (being kind) him. I wonder if there has been a QB in NFL history who has played for 7 different OC’s in 7 years. Not even close. You can pile on all you want. I have stayed in the group chat when he’s having a bad game and said so several times over the years so don’t call me a Cousins Cult member. I’ve had some players I didn’t like but never got poisoned with pure hate. The narrative following Cousins is juiced by Simms and a few other guys. I predict, if our key players stay healthy, we will win 10 games minimum. Otherwise, I’ll take a pie to the face
If Z and Hunter both play 17 I'm calling 11 wins minimum.
Is that good enough for you?
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:15 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:47 am
If Booth plays well for us he was a great pick. If he doesn't play or plays poorly he was a stupid pick. Your question will be answered by 20/20 hindsight.
I dont think a stupid pick is decided whether a player pans out or not in the NFL. It's about what's logical at the time of the pick and going off that players tape at the time. Booth was a highly touted corner in college and going into the draft. So you cant blame them for the pick AT THE TIME. Corner was a need, Booth was excellent in college and it made sense at the time and by the looks of it, was good value in round 2. I dont see that as a "stupid pick" whether he busts or not we cant predict that nor can the coaching staff or GM. A tackle in round 2 would be a stupid pick. Because we dont need one, have Oneill under contract and Darrisaw is only in year 2. So that wouldnt make any sense. Booth 100% made sense. I would've taken Booth at 32, let alone 42.
I agree with you PHP. Obviously a pick's eventual value isn't known until down the road, but that doesn't determine whether a pick was smart or stupid. Dalvin Cook tore his ACL in Week 4 of his rookie year. If we use the 20/20 hindsight model, at the time we might have concluded that it was a stupid pick. Or if he hadn't come back from it. The criteria I believe we should be using are things like scouting reports, the player's measurables, his intelligence, etc. ... the things you use to make the decision to pick him, and where you pick him.

In Booth's case, I think it was a great pick. And while some had him at a first-round grade, I think his injury history and relative inexperience caused him to drop, and the Vikings made a good pick at 42.

Here's what NFL Network had to say about Booth.
A press/zone combo corner with good size and length, Booth plays with an urgent, competitive nature. He has the strength, balance and foot agility to press and slow the release. He has limited starting experience, though. He will need more development to prevent route specialists from manipulating his feet and hips. Booth has the ball-tracking and play strength to find and maintain top-dog positioning through catch tries. He's more effective in off coverage underneath than tight man. He needs to play more football, but his ball-hawking instincts, burst to close and toughness in run support will be very appealing for zone teams looking for an upgrade at cornerback.
Strengths
1. Five-star background with five-star measurables.
2. Feet are very agile and twitchy.
3. Slides and slows release from press.
4. Strength to maintain extended jab through release.
5. Backpedal is smooth and fast.
6. Consistently competitive and urgent in his coverage.
7. Better playmaking talent than ball production would indicate.
8. Awareness to read and overlap from zone.
9. Burst and length helps him close out a catch point.
10. Ball judgment and tracking is top-notch.
11. Maintains positioning and contorts to challenge throws.
12. A downhill striker.

Weaknesses
1. Split high with slight stall in his hips when matching lateral break points.
2. Will need to dial back physical hands beyond the line of scrimmage.
3. False steps and inefficiencies in coverage movements.
4. Gets prematurely turned by a quality route-runner.
5. Unable to generate instant acceleration from transitions.
6. Can be too anticipatory and overreactive.
7. Needs better eye balance from zone and off-man coverage.
8. Tackling lacks control at times.

As far as weaknesses are concerned, some can be improved through coaching and experience, while some will be more difficult. I'd say Numbers 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8 can be improved with coaching. And it doesn't hurt that he's coming to a team with Patrick Peterson, a veteran who is one of the best to ever play the position.

And this is a relatively conservative scouting report. Others have him as good as Gardner and Stingley. NFL Network gives him a prospect grade of 6.34, meaning he has the potential to become a plus-starter. That's just about perfect for Round 2.

I think we did just fine with Booth at 42. It's a smart pick. That doesn't mean he'll work out. But it's certainly not a stupid pick.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by CharVike »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:32 am
CharVike wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:55 pm
We already went through this. You act like these teams make the playoffs and their D gets rolled over like our No 1 did against Nick Foles in 2017. Once in the playoffs it's a new season. In 2011 that junk Giant D only allowed 17 points to Brady in the SB. This year we selected a D player round 1. Don't make much sense based on what you just posted. We are in great shape with the old vet PP as our top cover guy. Booth was a stupid pick also. Our new GM needs to refocus. We need OL and a Theilen understudy and injury replacement would have helped more.
How was Booth a stupid pick?
His claim is that D won't hold a team back. Many teams have won it all with worse Ds than ours the last two years. That is why I mentioned our team picking guys and it was stupid based on his analysis. I like the Booth pick because we need help at CB.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:15 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:47 am
If Booth plays well for us he was a great pick. If he doesn't play or plays poorly he was a stupid pick. Your question will be answered by 20/20 hindsight.
I dont think a stupid pick is decided whether a player pans out or not in the NFL. It's about what's logical at the time of the pick and going off that players tape at the time. Booth was a highly touted corner in college and going into the draft. So you cant blame them for the pick AT THE TIME. Corner was a need, Booth was excellent in college and it made sense at the time and by the looks of it, was good value in round 2. I dont see that as a "stupid pick" whether he busts or not we cant predict that nor can the coaching staff or GM. A tackle in round 2 would be a stupid pick. Because we dont need one, have Oneill under contract and Darrisaw is only in year 2. So that wouldnt make any sense. Booth 100% made sense. I would've taken Booth at 32, let alone 42.
What's logical or makes sense will be meaningless in the end. If he sucks people will think he was a stupid pick. If he gets injured we should have saw that he was injury prone. I like the pick. IMO worth the IMO slight risk.
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Re: Top Tier QB's

Post by StumpHunter »

CharVike wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:01 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:32 am

How was Booth a stupid pick?
His claim is that D won't hold a team back. Many teams have won it all with worse Ds than ours the last two years. That is why I mentioned our team picking guys and it was stupid based on his analysis. I like the Booth pick because we need help at CB.
Literally wrote that it is easier to win with a good D, but don't let facts get in the way of a good strawman. You never have before, so why start now?