Post Draft thoughts

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vikeinmontana
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by vikeinmontana »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:22 pm Stump's accusations that those who are giving the benefit of the doubt to Ingram only because the Vikings picked him is flat out insulting and to me would elicit a fight with a lot of people. I'm not a fighter so not with me. However, I'm very angry with him. I have him blocked once again and this time it will be permanent. I would give Ingram the benefit of the doubt no matter who picked him. How dare Stump act like he knows our motives.
It's a real wild take for sure. If you don't assume this guy raped two girls because I assume this guy raped two girls it's just because you put your love of a football team ahead of the two girls I'm assuming got raped.

Had to read this thread a couple times to see if what I thought was being said was really being said.

What is the purpose of even having a legal system if we are always going to assume guilt no matter what? Head scratching for sure. :?
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by StumpHunter »

vikeinmontana wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 3:06 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:22 pm Stump's accusations that those who are giving the benefit of the doubt to Ingram only because the Vikings picked him is flat out insulting and to me would elicit a fight with a lot of people. I'm not a fighter so not with me. However, I'm very angry with him. I have him blocked once again and this time it will be permanent. I would give Ingram the benefit of the doubt no matter who picked him. How dare Stump act like he knows our motives.
It's a real wild take for sure. If you don't assume this guy raped two girls because I assume this guy raped two girls it's just because you put your love of a football team ahead of the two girls I'm assuming got raped.

Had to read this thread a couple times to see if what I thought was being said was really being said.

What is the purpose of even having a legal system if we are always going to assume guilt no matter what? Head scratching for sure. :?
You are pretending like he got a fair trial and was acquitted when that is not what happened.

The only way he is innocent is if two young girls were lying and fooled detectives, a DA and a grand jury. Possible certainly, but not plausible and if you are clinging to the small chance that he is innocent and giving HIM the benefit of the doubt instead of the victims, well then I am going to question your motives.

I mean I HOPE this reaction is because people are fans of the team and not because they think they should always assume victims are lying, out for money, or that the perp was just "playing a game and things got out of hand". Or that "boys will be boys" and he was only 15 so what are you going to do?
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by StumpHunter »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:47 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:38 pm
Yep wanting an explanation of why my favorite team drafted a guy accused of raping two little girls is what is wrong with America.

So the parents decided to destroy his career before it even began to make money? Makes sense. Or how about this, the sisters were pressured into silence when their parents realized they could make a lot of money off of this guy when some team made him a millionaire if they didn't testify in a trial and put him behind bars? A little more logical than what you put forward, no?


I don't actually think I need to dignify this with a response. He was charged with 2 counts of aggravated sexual assault, it was not a game, and being 16 does not excuse raping two sisters over a year long period.


I don't believe I have called for him to be incarcerated without a fair trial where this point would actually mean anything.

People need to take a step back and really think about what they are defending here. If the Vikings are this important to you that you will ignore them drafting someone who probably raped two girls, or worse than ignoring, defend the rapist's actions, then you really need reassess your life.
Why do you need an explanation though? What makes you think you are entitled to one?
How about so that the victims of sexual assault know that the Vikings didn't just give someone just like their attacker their dream job? Is that a good enough reason?
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by StumpHunter »

Cliff wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:46 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:22 pmIf you talked to a victim of sexual assault who did come forward, you would know that the victims are absolutely grilled by detectives, psychologist and the DA before any charges are even filed. It is an awful process where detectives go in assuming the woman is lying, regardless of what you think the impact MeToo had on the justice system. The system is incredibly hard on victims, intentionally, with the premise that it weeds out the women who are lying, but with the reality that rapist end up getting away with their crimes because the victims finally just cave in and want the pain of having to relive the assault go away. If a crime of this level made it all the way past a grand jury, something that not even Watson's dozens of accusers could get past, it means the guy was guilty the vast majority of times. That is with adults, and with children it is almost unheard of for a young person like that to be able to lie to the point that a DA would take it the case this far.

So no, #MeToo and Kwesi saying "he looked into it" isn't good enough for me and the only reason it is for some people is because they don't want to believe their team intentionally drafted a rapist.
So in your opinion everyone accused of being a rapist *is* a rapist and should be treated as such? Or just cases that make it to a grand jury? Is it your opinion every that every case which involves a grand jury means the person is guilty?

The fact is that you have no facts. You've judged someone guilty because they almost went to trial.
You saying this says YOU have no facts. It didn't just go to the grand jury, he was INDICTED by the grand jury and the case went to trial when the victims didn't show up to testify. If they had, he would be in jail right now.
It's got nothing to do with the Vikings drafting him except it's more proof that nothing was found in his background. Do you really think the Vikings are going to risk a scandal over a second round draft pick?
What scandal are they risking? The Vikings drafted a guy who was indicted by a grand jury for two counts of aggravated sexual assault against children and NO ONE CARES. What exactly are they risking again? Kwesi played the analytics and knew if he gave fans the choice between being disgusted by their team or ignoring what their draft pick did, they would ignore what he did. His first big win with analytics.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by vikeinmontana »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 3:50 pm
vikeinmontana wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 3:06 pm
It's a real wild take for sure. If you don't assume this guy raped two girls because I assume this guy raped two girls it's just because you put your love of a football team ahead of the two girls I'm assuming got raped.

Had to read this thread a couple times to see if what I thought was being said was really being said.

What is the purpose of even having a legal system if we are always going to assume guilt no matter what? Head scratching for sure. :?
You are pretending like he got a fair trial and was acquitted when that is not what happened.

The only way he is innocent is if two young girls were lying and fooled detectives, a DA and a grand jury. Possible certainly, but not plausible and if you are clinging to the small chance that he is innocent and giving HIM the benefit of the doubt instead of the victims, well then I am going to question your motives.

I mean I HOPE this reaction is because people are fans of the team and not because they think they should always assume victims are lying, out for money, or that the perp was just "playing a game and things got out of hand". Or that "boys will be boys" and he was only 15 so what are you going to do?
I'm not pretending anything. That's the difference. I'm not pretending to have the facts because I wasn't there when it happened and I wasn't on the legal team working the case. Perhaps you were or know more about what happened than what's being reported?

It's precisely why I try not to voice opinions as if they're certainty unless I was directly involved. Here's my take on what could have happened as I wasn't there. He could have raped the girls and gotten off. He could have been accused of rape when one didn't occur. Believe it or not that happens. You'd be shocked to know many people are of the belief that we have thousands of innocent people sitting in prison as I type this. The girls could have been telling the truth and only didn't testify due to fear. The girls could have been lying and became fearful of the thought of a trial. I have no idea. The cops could have been fooled. They could have made mistakes. They could have been corrupt. All has happened before.

Honestly the only difference I see between you and many of us here are that one of us is convinced he knows exactly what happened while the others maintain we don't know what happened and he wasn't convicted of a crime so he shouldn't pay the rest of his life for something that POSSIBLY didn't happen. :confused:
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by StumpHunter »

vikeinmontana wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:22 pm

It's precisely why I try not to voice opinions as if they're certainty unless I was directly involved. Here's my take on what could have happened as I wasn't there. He could have raped the girls and gotten off. He could have been accused of rape when one didn't occur. Believe it or not that happens.
Which do you think is most likely? That two children were able to convince detectives, a DA and a grand jury that they were raped over a year long period when it didn't happen or that they were able to convince them of that because it did?
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by vikeinmontana »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:24 pm
vikeinmontana wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 4:22 pm

It's precisely why I try not to voice opinions as if they're certainty unless I was directly involved. Here's my take on what could have happened as I wasn't there. He could have raped the girls and gotten off. He could have been accused of rape when one didn't occur. Believe it or not that happens.
Which do you think is most likely? That two children were able to convince detectives, a DA and a grand jury that they were raped over a year long period when it didn't happen or that they were able to convince them of that because it did?
I don't know enough about the girls, their family life, Ingram, his family life, or any of the detectives to suggest which was more likely. :confused:

Just so I'm clear where you're coming from. Wouldn't every single person in our legal system be guilty anytime there was a trial? After all, to get to a trial would mean the detectives believed guilt, or were fooled, the DA believed in guilt, or were fooled, and there would be an indictment, which apparently means guilt,

To be clear you could be 100% spot on correct about what happened. But seems to me using the same logic if you are accused of anything, and it goes to trial, said defendant is guilty. I just don't believe that to be the case every single time.
Last edited by vikeinmontana on Wed May 04, 2022 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by VikingsVictorious »

The courts after investigating dropped the charges.
LSU after investigating reinstated him.
The Vikings after investigating drafted him.
That is good enough for me to let it be.

It's so nice having Stump on block. I gave him the benefit of the doubt for a long time, but he has proven to me that he is a poster I no longer want to interact with.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Cliff »

This is the last post about the legality. Suffice it to say we don't all agree but that isn't what this forum is for. I'll be deleting posts about it from here on out.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Cliff wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 7:08 pm This is the last post about the legality. Suffice it to say we don't all agree but that isn't what this forum is for. I'll be deleting posts about it from here on out.
Oops. Sorry. Didn't see this.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Cliff wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 7:08 pm This is the last post about the legality. Suffice it to say we don't all agree but that isn't what this forum is for. I'll be deleting posts about it from here on out.
Good move.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Texas Vike wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:02 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:42 pm

Again, I'm looking at all his draft trades since 2014. That's just simply not true. I literally just said what he did. Trade down a few picks in middle to late rounds and get a 7th as a throw in. If a team comes to you and wants to trade up 4 spots in the 4th round and will throw you a 7th round pick for it, why would you not do that? Especially if there are multiple players you like at that spot. It's literally a no brainer.

And you're saying he's trading OUT of the 3rd and DOWN to the 7th..... what? That literally never happened. Ever. One of his trades would read similar to:

Vikings trade: 3rd round pick (100)

Jets trade: 4th round pick (104) and a 7th round pick

I dont look at the round of these trades. I look at the pick number. Because if the 3rd round goes into the 4th round at lets say pick 102-103 and we trade pick 100 for pick 104, yeah we technically traded a 3rd round pick for a 4th round pick but when they are only 4 picks apart, does it really matter? It's about the pick number. Like would anyone really not take that deal above? I would 10 times out of 10 unless there was someone at pick 100 that I REALLY wanted that fell to me. And adding that 7th is a free chance at finding an impact player. Think of it like the lottery. If someone offered you a free $1 lottery ticket, would you take it? I know I would. Chances are you arent going to win, and even if you do, they dont pay out for shi#. But there's still a small chance of a home run. So you take it 10 times out of 10. The difference in player talent from pick 100 to pick 104 is literally 0.

And passed on "great players" for 7th rounders huh? Care to share who? I'm all ears.
Look, you're WAY too emotionally charged about this issue for me to really want to engage with you on it. I am confident that you have an entrenched opinion, and no amount of objective evidence will sway you from it. As I stated, I'm too busy (and frankly don't care enough) to gather all of the data, but my very first search brought up this article from 2019, which I believe is a more complete illustration of RS's MO:
The Vikings made multiple moves in the third round of the 2019 NFL Draft on Friday.

First, Minnesota traded its 81st overall pick to Detroit in exchange for the Lions 88th overall pick and the 204th overall pick, which will fall in the sixth round.

Detroit selected Boston College safety Will Harris at No. 81.

The Vikings then sent the 88th overall pick and the 209th (sixth round) to Seattle in exchange for the 92nd and 159th overall selections. The 159th will fall in the fifth round.

Seattle selected Utah LB Cody Barton at 88th.

Vikings General Manager Rick Spielman couldn't resist another trade, or another, however. He agreed to send the 92nd selection to the New York Jets to acquire the 93rd and 217th overall picks.

The Jets selected Southern Cal T Chuma Edoga 92nd.

Fourthly, Spielman dealt the 93rd pick to Baltimore for the 102nd (third round), 191st and 193rd (both in the sixth round)

The Ravens tabbed Notre Dame WR Miles Boykin.

The deals are the 27th, 28th, 29th and 30th draft-day trades the Vikings have made since Spielman became GM in 2012.
https://www.vikings.com/news/vikings-ma ... -3rd-round

Taking in the whole picture, he didn't ultimately just go down a few spots, he went from 81 to 102, and along the way picked up a lot of 6th and 7th rounders. Now, if you want to argue that this approach is intelligent, fine. I don't like it. But let's just clarify that this is the kind of thing that RS did and that it isn't some myth.
I'm not emotionally charged at all, I'm not dying for you to respond or asking you to pull up 8 million statistics. Just respond at your own will. But again, you said "7th round picks" like 95% of Vikings fans do. The fact that he gained 7ths as throw in's in those other trades again doesnt mean he likes to "stockpile" them. It's simply maximizing your value and taking a chance you find a gem.

If a team comes to you in the 5th round and says, we will give you pick 175 and 215 for pick 170, why would you not do that? You move down 5 spots in a round with a low hit rate regardless and now double your odds to hit on a player gaining a 7th round pick. I'm not sure why people have so much trouble understanding that.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Texas Vike »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:40 am
Texas Vike wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:02 pm

Look, you're WAY too emotionally charged about this issue for me to really want to engage with you on it. I am confident that you have an entrenched opinion, and no amount of objective evidence will sway you from it. As I stated, I'm too busy (and frankly don't care enough) to gather all of the data, but my very first search brought up this article from 2019, which I believe is a more complete illustration of RS's MO:

https://www.vikings.com/news/vikings-ma ... -3rd-round

Taking in the whole picture, he didn't ultimately just go down a few spots, he went from 81 to 102, and along the way picked up a lot of 6th and 7th rounders. Now, if you want to argue that this approach is intelligent, fine. I don't like it. But let's just clarify that this is the kind of thing that RS did and that it isn't some myth.
I'm not emotionally charged at all, I'm not dying for you to respond or asking you to pull up 8 million statistics. Just respond at your own will. But again, you said "7th round picks" like 95% of Vikings fans do. The fact that he gained 7ths as throw in's in those other trades again doesnt mean he likes to "stockpile" them. It's simply maximizing your value and taking a chance you find a gem.

If a team comes to you in the 5th round and says, we will give you pick 175 and 215 for pick 170, why would you not do that? You move down 5 spots in a round with a low hit rate regardless and now double your odds to hit on a player gaining a 7th round pick. I'm not sure why people have so much trouble understanding that.
No one has any trouble understanding anything. I just don't think you are representing reality in an objective way, due to your love of Rick.

You say RS would trade down 5 spots and additionally get a 7th as a bonus. It's not lost on me what he was doing. Here's what you are not recognizing: he would do that 4 times in a row (as in the (in)famous 2019 draft), thus he would ultimately move back 20+ spots and by doing so he'd stockpile 6th and 7th round picks.

Kwesi similarly moved down 20 spots in the first round of this draft. But here's the difference: Rick's 6th and 7th rounders NEVER made any impact. If they had, we wouldn't be lacking so much depth on D. Those picks would routinely be training camp fodder. OTOH, I'm willing to bet that Cine and Booth will make contributions.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by StanM »

These arguments about a draft pick’s previous legal problems are never going to be resolved. Why don’t we just cut to the chase and ask those who don’t support the pick what their bottom line is? Are those of you who don’t support it advocating for all of us not supporting the Vikings? Outrage over assault is a valid moral position, so is giving a young man who was not convicted an opportunity. Arguments can and are being made for both positions and those positions are going to reflect the personal convictions of everyone who comments. That is the kind of thread that can go on forever without ever resolving.

It would seem to me that those who don’t agree with the pick and can no longer support the team would want to move on. Yet here they are quoting court cases and debating how the legal system works. Damn if we aren’t a smart talented group of fans. Why, just a few days ago I marveled at the draft stats and expertise that even scouts, GM’s and coaches don’t have all right here on the Vikes board. Draft experts, judges, high roller attorneys, NFL scouting experts, we have it all. What a great place. Go Vikings, how about those draft choices and all the exciting football we will see this fall?

This post does include some sarcasm in case anyone didn’t catch the gist of what I’m saying. These kinds of discussions never resolve and are the kind of topics that make enemies out of friends. I am not a moderator here and am just an insignificant newcomer but it seemed like a good time to sit back and take a deep breath and have a group hug before the next crisis. :beerock:
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Cliff »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:51 pm
Cliff wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 7:08 pm This is the last post about the legality. Suffice it to say we don't all agree but that isn't what this forum is for. I'll be deleting posts about it from here on out.
Oops. Sorry. Didn't see this.
I deleted your post out of fairness. I deleted a couple of other posts too.