Post Draft thoughts

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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 6:51 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 10:45 am
I'd give our draft a solid B+ and I'm excited to see how the new players work out. Sorry for getting into it a bit with Stump, but I don't like just letting him go unchallenged.
Was it really important to challenge my stance about not wanting a child rapist on the team? To the point you diminished what he did by claiming it could have been consensual between a 15 and 13 year old or that they were "just playing doctor"? I sort of understand the people who have to ignore the charges to be able to continue to follow the team, but defending what that monster actually did? That is just plain evil.
Again, we dont know if "that's what he actually did". I would have to imagine that given as much as the Vikings investigated it, there's a lot more to the story that you have no idea about. You are automatically assuming he was guilty and calling him a rapist. I guess I can call Ray Lewis a murderer, Dalvin Cook a woman beater, etc. Even though they were never proved to be guilty. That's fair?

Have your questions about it, sure. But to sit here and call the guy a rapist and say he did this or did that, is not fair at all IMO. Just my two cents.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Foreman44 wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 12:33 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 8:55 pm This was by far the most disappointed I have been with my favorite team and I cannot believe we drafted a guy who was indicted by a grand jury for aggravated sexual assault against children.

Not sure how people can put that aside and still like this draft. Just disgusting that Kwesi would even consider drafting someone like that and no amount of analytics should warrant adding a man who only escaped prison because he was lucky enough his victims didn't show up to testify. Something all too common in a criminal justice system that treats victims of these cases like they are criminals themselves.
I was disappointed as well. Who did we get.. we don’t really know how these picks will turn out. It could be anywhere between as bad as some think to to average, or a super bowl type year...I hope somewhere in in between or better.
I mean couldnt we say that about every draft, for every team, every year? You never know how these picks are going to turn out until they actually hit the field. I always have trouble giving or believing any sort of "draft grade". Because even NFL analysts know no more than we do if these players will pan out or not.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by StumpHunter »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 7:42 am
StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 6:51 am
Was it really important to challenge my stance about not wanting a child rapist on the team? To the point you diminished what he did by claiming it could have been consensual between a 15 and 13 year old or that they were "just playing doctor"? I sort of understand the people who have to ignore the charges to be able to continue to follow the team, but defending what that monster actually did? That is just plain evil.
Again, we dont know if "that's what he actually did". I would have to imagine that given as much as the Vikings investigated it, there's a lot more to the story that you have no idea about. You are automatically assuming he was guilty and calling him a rapist. I guess I can call Ray Lewis a murderer, Dalvin Cook a woman beater, etc. Even though they were never proved to be guilty. That's fair?

Have your questions about it, sure. But to sit here and call the guy a rapist and say he did this or did that, is not fair at all IMO. Just my two cents.
The Vikings do not know more than the grand jury that indicted Ingram, the DA that charged him and the detectives that brought this case to the DA and I have yet to hear a good explanation of how a case got that far if it was all completely fabricated. Something that our GM owes fans and victims of sexual assault who see this as a team rewarding someone who only got off because his victims were too afraid or ashamed to testify. If he knows cold hard facts that make these little girls liars, lets hear them.

Cook and Lewis's cases are very different, with Cook not even being charged with anything and Lewis, who was at least an accomplice to murder getting off because he had a lot of money and could afford a good attorney. I feel very comfortable calling him a murderer, btw and do pretty much every time I talk about him.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Cliff »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:00 am The Vikings do not know more than the grand jury that indicted Ingram, the DA that charged him and the detectives that brought this case to the DA and I have yet to hear a good explanation of how a case got that far if it was all completely fabricated. Something that our GM owes fans and victims of sexual assault who see this as a team rewarding someone who only got off because his victims were too afraid or ashamed to testify. If he knows cold hard facts that make these little girls liars, lets hear them.

Cook and Lewis's cases are very different, with Cook not even being charged with anything and Lewis, who was at least an accomplice to murder getting off because he had a lot of money and could afford a good attorney. I feel very comfortable calling him a murderer, btw and do pretty much every time I talk about him.
Because every accusation of sexual assault is taken seriously but especially in the heat of the MeToo movement that was going on at the time. The fact that it was dropped in 2018, when everybody was being (rightfully) forced to take these kinds of charges very seriously, makes me think there was no case.

There was no settlement paid and all charges were dropped. There's no reason to believe after waiting 3-4 years to come forward, with women coming forward and having major victories against powerful men that committed those types of crimes all over the country, that they were too afraid or ashamed to testify.

Without knowing anything about the case, you're making accusations based on nothing. Just because he doesn't want to go into what happened doesn't make him guilty.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:00 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 7:42 am

Again, we dont know if "that's what he actually did". I would have to imagine that given as much as the Vikings investigated it, there's a lot more to the story that you have no idea about. You are automatically assuming he was guilty and calling him a rapist. I guess I can call Ray Lewis a murderer, Dalvin Cook a woman beater, etc. Even though they were never proved to be guilty. That's fair?

Have your questions about it, sure. But to sit here and call the guy a rapist and say he did this or did that, is not fair at all IMO. Just my two cents.
The Vikings do not know more than the grand jury that indicted Ingram, the DA that charged him and the detectives that brought this case to the DA and I have yet to hear a good explanation of how a case got that far if it was all completely fabricated. Something that our GM owes fans and victims of sexual assault who see this as a team rewarding someone who only got off because his victims were too afraid or ashamed to testify. If he knows cold hard facts that make these little girls liars, lets hear them.

Cook and Lewis's cases are very different, with Cook not even being charged with anything and Lewis, who was at least an accomplice to murder getting off because he had a lot of money and could afford a good attorney. I feel very comfortable calling him a murderer, btw and do pretty much every time I talk about him.
Ok I mean I dont know what to tell you. We're fans sitting behind a computer screen. There are plenty of guys in their front office with a lot more information and did a lot more digging than we did. They clearly know something we dont otherwise I highly doubt KAM takes that risk in his first year as GM.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Cliff wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:32 am
StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:00 am The Vikings do not know more than the grand jury that indicted Ingram, the DA that charged him and the detectives that brought this case to the DA and I have yet to hear a good explanation of how a case got that far if it was all completely fabricated. Something that our GM owes fans and victims of sexual assault who see this as a team rewarding someone who only got off because his victims were too afraid or ashamed to testify. If he knows cold hard facts that make these little girls liars, lets hear them.

Cook and Lewis's cases are very different, with Cook not even being charged with anything and Lewis, who was at least an accomplice to murder getting off because he had a lot of money and could afford a good attorney. I feel very comfortable calling him a murderer, btw and do pretty much every time I talk about him.
Because every accusation of sexual assault is taken seriously but especially in the heat of the MeToo movement that was going on at the time. The fact that it was dropped in 2018, when everybody was being (rightfully) forced to take these kinds of charges very seriously, makes me think there was no case.

There was no settlement paid and all charges were dropped. There's no reason to believe after waiting 3-4 years to come forward, with women coming forward and having major victories against powerful men that committed those types of crimes all over the country, that they were too afraid or ashamed to testify.

Without knowing anything about the case, you're making accusations based on nothing. Just because he doesn't want to go into what happened doesn't make him guilty.
You said that much better than I could have Cliff!
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:00 am Something that our GM owes fans and victims of sexual assault who see this as a team rewarding someone who only got off because his victims were too afraid or ashamed to testify. If he knows cold hard facts that make these little girls liars, lets hear them.
This right here is what is wrong with American sports. In fact, it's a big part of what's wrong with America.

The GM of the Minnesota Vikings owes you nothing. The DA on the case owes you nothing. The police owe you nothing, and the grand jury owes you nothing. You are not entitled to all the facts just because you think you should be.

The plain simple truth is that maybe Ingram got away with something. Or maybe these girls ARE liars. Or maybe their parents were looking for a tidy settlement from a kid who would someday be rich. Or maybe it was kids playing a game that went too far. Ingram was FIFTEEN. It's not like he had a fully matured adult mind. Have you ever raised a 15-year-old? For most 15-year-olds, the capacity for rational thought and emotional self control barely register on a scale of 1 to 1,000. That doesn't excuse violent crime, but you can't prove one was committed here because actual law enforcement and legal professionals couldn't prove it.

The legal standard for criminal cases in this country is "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt." Amazing how so many people believe it ought to be "guilty because I say he is."
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by StanM »

VikingLord wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 5:36 pm
StanM wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:43 pm I deal with high blood pressure and that sort of thing at 70 and it's directly attributable to having been a Vikings fan for their entire existence. We old Vikings fans have to be careful, we're damaged goods and it wouldn't take much to make us keel over.
I wonder if the Vikings should come with one of those FDA warning labels.

"This team has been linked to inexplicable collapses, clearly blown bad calls, and impossible blunders at key moments in big games. They are usually supremely talented and known to get people's hopes way up before mercilessly crushing them into the dirt. As a result, there is a very high chance if you choose to follow this team you may be exposed to physical and mental dangers to your health and well-being. These include, but are not limited to, loudly yelling at the TV, refs, coaches and players who cannot hear you and, if they could hear you, would not change anything they did or will do, sulking for hours or, in some cases, days, after a bad loss, or otherwise malaise as you constantly wonder how fate could be so cruel to so many for so long. Following this team has been known to cause irrational exuberance at other times, especially around the time of the draft and preseason where you are prone to note that player X "looks good" or you note that the coaches, GM, or player X seem to be saying the right things and have the right attitude. All of these things then inevitably may lead you back to yelling at the TV, refs, coaches and players. Being a fan of this team has been known to cause actual physical harm. If possible, try to be a fan of at least one other pro sports team outside of the state of Minnesota. This can counteract at least some portion of what you will experience as a Vikings fan."
You nailed it!!! :slice:
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:51 am
StumpHunter wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:00 am Something that our GM owes fans and victims of sexual assault who see this as a team rewarding someone who only got off because his victims were too afraid or ashamed to testify. If he knows cold hard facts that make these little girls liars, lets hear them.
This right here is what is wrong with American sports. In fact, it's a big part of what's wrong with America.

The GM of the Minnesota Vikings owes you nothing. The DA on the case owes you nothing. The police owe you nothing, and the grand jury owes you nothing. You are not entitled to all the facts just because you think you should be.

The plain simple truth is that maybe Ingram got away with something. Or maybe these girls ARE liars. Or maybe their parents were looking for a tidy settlement from a kid who would someday be rich. Or maybe it was kids playing a game that went too far. Ingram was FIFTEEN. It's not like he had a fully matured adult mind. Have you ever raised a 15-year-old? For most 15-year-olds, the capacity for rational thought and emotional self control barely register on a scale of 1 to 1,000. That doesn't excuse violent crime, but you can't prove one was committed here because actual law enforcement and legal professionals couldn't prove it.

The legal standard for criminal cases in this country is "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt." Amazing how so many people believe it ought to be "guilty because I say he is."
Also very well said. Entitlement in the country is a massive, massive problem. I'm a special education teacher and lacrosse coach. I literally see it every single day with both parents and kids. It's disgusting to be quite honest.
Last edited by Pondering Her Percy on Wed May 04, 2022 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

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Foreman44 wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:36 am I just read a article about this draft looking so much like past drafts of R.S.

Basically it said that our GM is still using R.S. draft specialists.. Those he wouldn’t change till after the draft.....
I can see similarities, but also some differences.

Did he trade down (and up) a fair bit? yes. But we didn't stockpile 7th round picks like Rick. We also didn't see complete head scratchers like Chaz Surrat, the German WR, etc. Lastly, it looks like there was an overriding philosophy placed on speed, particularly 10 yard splits and measures of explosiveness. Opting for Cine and Booth instead of Hamilton / McDuffie speaks to this. For the latter, his short arms and likelihood of playing slot had me hesitant.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Texas Vike wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 10:51 am
Foreman44 wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 5:36 am I just read a article about this draft looking so much like past drafts of R.S.

Basically it said that our GM is still using R.S. draft specialists.. Those he wouldn’t change till after the draft.....
I can see similarities, but also some differences.

But we didn't stockpile 7th round picks like Rick.
Ugh this is an all too common typical Viking fan response when it comes to Spielman and it drives me nuts. That is literally a myth. We were awarded multiple 7th round COMPENSATORY picks year after year. You guys act like he traded away the first pick in the draft for 7th rounders. He didnt stockpile 7th round picks. They were given to him by the league. What is he suppose to do? Decline them? Yet it's held over his head by SO many Vikings fans that he stockpiled them and many act like he traded back for them....Not. True. They were given to him by the league!
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Foreman44 »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 7:45 am
Foreman44 wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 12:33 pm

I was disappointed as well. Who did we get.. we don’t really know how these picks will turn out. It could be anywhere between as bad as some think to to average, or a super bowl type year...I hope somewhere in in between or better.
I mean couldnt we say that about every draft, for every team, every year? You never know how these picks are going to turn out until they actually hit the field. I always have trouble giving or believing any sort of "draft grade". Because even NFL analysts know no more than we do if these players will pan out or not.
You are absolutely right. The problem is how well have we and did we do..or other teams.

I guess that is the trick. Finding those picks. If our GM found them p, he could be genius
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by makila »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:24 am
Texas Vike wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 10:51 am

I can see similarities, but also some differences.

But we didn't stockpile 7th round picks like Rick.
Ugh this is an all too common typical Viking fan response when it comes to Spielman and it drives me nuts. That is literally a myth. We were awarded multiple 7th round COMPENSATORY picks year after year. You guys act like he traded away the first pick in the draft for 7th rounders. He didnt stockpile 7th round picks. They were given to him by the league. What is he suppose to do? Decline them? Yet it's held over his head by SO many Vikings fans that he stockpiled them and many act like he traded back for them....Not. True. They were given to him by the league!
Eh......it isn't a myth that we acquired 7ths via trade.

From 1995-2019 the Vikings were compensated 21 picks (bottom half of the NFL). 6 of them were 7th rounders. https://overthecap.com/compensatory-pick-history/
In 2020 they were comped 3 picks. 1 3rd and 2 7ths. https://www.twincities.com/2020/03/10/v ... ird-round/
In 2021 they were comped 2 picks. 1 4th and 1 6th. https://www.vikings.com/news/compensato ... -nfl-draft
In 2022 they were comped 0 picks. https://www.vikings.com/news/comp-picks-2022-nfl-draft

Since 1995, they have been awarded EIGHT 7th round comp picks. (total of above numbers)

Since 1995, they have made 49 7th round picks. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... /draft.htm
Of which 28 we would have had just due to 1 per round for each team. Plus the 8 above. 36 via natural draft and comp picks. 13 acquired via other methods. That's more than the comp picks awarded.

Since 2005, they have made 33 7th round picks, of which 17 would have been natural picks. We were not comped an additional 16 7th rounders during RS' time (the difference).

RS liked to get his 7th round picks. I understand some of them came via comp. He also traded for plenty. It was both him, and comp picks. I am sure a deeper dive into each transaction would have more insight that this 30000 ft fly over. IE, how the 7th was acquired in each specific trade? I am sure some a throw ins, I hope. Ha. At work and can't at this time.

Disclaimer, on phone and could have typed something wrong. Think numbers are correct.
Last edited by makila on Wed May 04, 2022 12:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:24 am
Texas Vike wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 10:51 am

I can see similarities, but also some differences.

But we didn't stockpile 7th round picks like Rick.
Ugh this is an all too common typical Viking fan response when it comes to Spielman and it drives me nuts. That is literally a myth. We were awarded multiple 7th round COMPENSATORY picks year after year. You guys act like he traded away the first pick in the draft for 7th rounders. He didnt stockpile 7th round picks. They were given to him by the league. What is he suppose to do? Decline them? Yet it's held over his head by SO many Vikings fans that he stockpiled them and many act like he traded back for them....Not. True. They were given to him by the league!
When Spielman got 7th round picks they were usually a throw in deals for 5th and 6th round picks. Spielman never trade a first or second round pick for 6th or 7th round picks. As you said it's a myth.
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Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by VikingsVictorious »

makila wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:59 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 11:24 am

Ugh this is an all too common typical Viking fan response when it comes to Spielman and it drives me nuts. That is literally a myth. We were awarded multiple 7th round COMPENSATORY picks year after year. You guys act like he traded away the first pick in the draft for 7th rounders. He didnt stockpile 7th round picks. They were given to him by the league. What is he suppose to do? Decline them? Yet it's held over his head by SO many Vikings fans that he stockpiled them and many act like he traded back for them....Not. True. They were given to him by the league!
Eh......it isn't a myth that we acquired 7ths via trade.

From 1995-2019 the Vikings were compensated 21 picks (bottom half of the NFL). 6 of them were 7th rounders. https://overthecap.com/compensatory-pick-history/
In 2020 they were comped 3 picks. 1 3rd and 2 7ths. https://www.twincities.com/2020/03/10/v ... ird-round/
In 2021 they were comped 2 picks. 1 4th and 1 6th. https://www.vikings.com/news/compensato ... -nfl-draft
In 2022 they were comped 0 picks. https://www.vikings.com/news/comp-picks-2022-nfl-draft

Since 1995, they have been awarded EIGHT 7th round comp picks. (total of above numbers)

Since 1995, they have made 49 7th round picks. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... /draft.htm
Of which 27 we would have had just due to 1 per round for each team. Plus the 8 above. 35 via natural draft and comp picks. 14 acquired via other methods. That's more than the comp picks awarded. Almost double.

Since 2005, they have made 33 7th round picks, of which 17 would have been natural picks. We were not comped an additional 16 7th rounders during RS' time (the difference).

RS liked to get his 7th round picks. I understand some of them came via comp. He also traded for plenty. It was both him, and comp picks. I am sure a deeper dive into each transaction would have more insight that this 30000 ft fly over. At work and can't at this time.

Disclaimer, on phone and could have typed something wrong. Think numbers are correct.
Spielman got 6th and 7th round picks thrown in on deals for mostly 5th round picks. He never got a 6th or 7th round pick that I'm aware of in a deal for a first or 2nd round pick. I think one time he got them when he traded back 5 times before drafting Mattison and that started with a 3rd round pick.
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