Post Draft thoughts

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

vikeinmontana
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3146
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:23 pm
x 126

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by vikeinmontana »

StanM wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:51 am These arguments about a draft pick’s previous legal problems are never going to be resolved. Why don’t we just cut to the chase and ask those who don’t support the pick what their bottom line is? Are those of you who don’t support it advocating for all of us not supporting the Vikings? Outrage over assault is a valid moral position, so is giving a young man who was not convicted an opportunity. Arguments can and are being made for both positions and those positions are going to reflect the personal convictions of everyone who comments. That is the kind of thread that can go on forever without ever resolving.

It would seem to me that those who don’t agree with the pick and can no longer support the team would want to move on. Yet here they are quoting court cases and debating how the legal system works. Damn if we aren’t a smart talented group of fans. Why, just a few days ago I marveled at the draft stats and expertise that even scouts, GM’s and coaches don’t have all right here on the Vikes board. Draft experts, judges, high roller attorneys, NFL scouting experts, we have it all. What a great place. Go Vikings, how about those draft choices and all the exciting football we will see this fall?

This post does include some sarcasm in case anyone didn’t catch the gist of what I’m saying. These kinds of discussions never resolve and are the kind of topics that make enemies out of friends. I am not a moderator here and am just an insignificant newcomer but it seemed like a good time to sit back and take a deep breath and have a group hug before the next crisis. :beerock:
Love your perspective. Thanks
i'm ready for a beer.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3358
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 648

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Are we having a rookie mini-camp? If so when does it start?
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8924
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1029

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Texas Vike wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:28 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:40 am

I'm not emotionally charged at all, I'm not dying for you to respond or asking you to pull up 8 million statistics. Just respond at your own will. But again, you said "7th round picks" like 95% of Vikings fans do. The fact that he gained 7ths as throw in's in those other trades again doesnt mean he likes to "stockpile" them. It's simply maximizing your value and taking a chance you find a gem.

If a team comes to you in the 5th round and says, we will give you pick 175 and 215 for pick 170, why would you not do that? You move down 5 spots in a round with a low hit rate regardless and now double your odds to hit on a player gaining a 7th round pick. I'm not sure why people have so much trouble understanding that.
No one has any trouble understanding anything. I just don't think you are representing reality in an objective way, due to your love of Rick.

You say RS would trade down 5 spots and additionally get a 7th as a bonus. It's not lost on me what he was doing. Here's what you are not recognizing: he would do that 4 times in a row (as in the (in)famous 2019 draft), thus he would ultimately move back 20+ spots and by doing so he'd stockpile 6th and 7th round picks.

Kwesi similarly moved down 20 spots in the first round of this draft. But here's the difference: Rick's 6th and 7th rounders NEVER made any impact. If they had, we wouldn't be lacking so much depth on D. Those picks would routinely be training camp fodder. OTOH, I'm willing to bet that Cine and Booth will make contributions.
So since he traded down that far one time in 2019, that means "Rick loves stockpiling 7th rounders"? Most of his 7th round picks came from throw in picks or compensatory picks given by the league.

You cant sit there and tell me that if we still had Rick and he did EXACTLY what Kwesi did, people wouldnt be blowing a lid over it. I can 1000% guarantee people would be in an uproar. "Trader Rick this.. and Trader Rick that". And "all he ever wants to do is trade down". Blah blah blah.

I believe Cine and Booth will both make contributions too. But it was just last year where Rick traded down in round 1 and landed Christian Darrisaw who also made a big contribution. With that trade it also landed us Mond and Davis who the jury is still out on.

Point is, this whole trading back thing with Rick is massively overblown IMO. I wasnt even mad that Kwesi did. I just believe he should've gotten more than what he got in terms of draft pick capital. If there are a lot of guys you like in the middle rounds or whatever it may be, moving back is smart.

Nobody will ever be able to convince me that drafting 7 players over 10 players gives you a better chance to hit. When you get to the mid to late rounds, your hit rate drastically drops. So if I could have one 5th round pick or lets say three 7th round picks, I take three 7ths any day of the week.

Again, since I like to squeeze late round picks out of people in trades in fantasy football, does that mean I like "stockpiling late round picks"? Or am I simply squeezing everything I can out of my trade and taking a chance on one more player?
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3358
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 648

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:06 am
Texas Vike wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:28 am

No one has any trouble understanding anything. I just don't think you are representing reality in an objective way, due to your love of Rick.

You say RS would trade down 5 spots and additionally get a 7th as a bonus. It's not lost on me what he was doing. Here's what you are not recognizing: he would do that 4 times in a row (as in the (in)famous 2019 draft), thus he would ultimately move back 20+ spots and by doing so he'd stockpile 6th and 7th round picks.

Kwesi similarly moved down 20 spots in the first round of this draft. But here's the difference: Rick's 6th and 7th rounders NEVER made any impact. If they had, we wouldn't be lacking so much depth on D. Those picks would routinely be training camp fodder. OTOH, I'm willing to bet that Cine and Booth will make contributions.
So since he traded down that far one time in 2019, that means "Rick loves stockpiling 7th rounders"? Most of his 7th round picks came from throw in picks or compensatory picks given by the league.

You cant sit there and tell me that if we still had Rick and he did EXACTLY what Kwesi did, people wouldnt be blowing a lid over it. I can 1000% guarantee people would be in an uproar. "Trader Rick this.. and Trader Rick that". And "all he ever wants to do is trade down". Blah blah blah.

I believe Cine and Booth will both make contributions too. But it was just last year where Rick traded down in round 1 and landed Christian Darrisaw who also made a big contribution. With that trade it also landed us Mond and Davis who the jury is still out on.

Point is, this whole trading back thing with Rick is massively overblown IMO. I wasnt even mad that Kwesi did. I just believe he should've gotten more than what he got in terms of draft pick capital. If there are a lot of guys you like in the middle rounds or whatever it may be, moving back is smart.

Nobody will ever be able to convince me that drafting 7 players over 10 players gives you a better chance to hit. When you get to the mid to late rounds, your hit rate drastically drops. So if I could have one 5th round pick or lets say three 7th round picks, I take three 7ths any day of the week.

Again, since I like to squeeze late round picks out of people in trades in fantasy football, does that mean I like "stockpiling late round picks"? Or am I simply squeezing everything I can out of my trade and taking a chance on one more player?
I'm in agreement with you that trader down Rick was more myth than reality. However, in fantasy football you are capped on how many players you can draft while in the NFL you aren't. For every trade down you do in fantasy football there has to be a corresponding trade up.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3358
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 648

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Is it just me or does KOC look a bit/lot like Leo DiCaprio.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8924
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1029

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:23 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:06 am

So since he traded down that far one time in 2019, that means "Rick loves stockpiling 7th rounders"? Most of his 7th round picks came from throw in picks or compensatory picks given by the league.

You cant sit there and tell me that if we still had Rick and he did EXACTLY what Kwesi did, people wouldnt be blowing a lid over it. I can 1000% guarantee people would be in an uproar. "Trader Rick this.. and Trader Rick that". And "all he ever wants to do is trade down". Blah blah blah.

I believe Cine and Booth will both make contributions too. But it was just last year where Rick traded down in round 1 and landed Christian Darrisaw who also made a big contribution. With that trade it also landed us Mond and Davis who the jury is still out on.

Point is, this whole trading back thing with Rick is massively overblown IMO. I wasnt even mad that Kwesi did. I just believe he should've gotten more than what he got in terms of draft pick capital. If there are a lot of guys you like in the middle rounds or whatever it may be, moving back is smart.

Nobody will ever be able to convince me that drafting 7 players over 10 players gives you a better chance to hit. When you get to the mid to late rounds, your hit rate drastically drops. So if I could have one 5th round pick or lets say three 7th round picks, I take three 7ths any day of the week.

Again, since I like to squeeze late round picks out of people in trades in fantasy football, does that mean I like "stockpiling late round picks"? Or am I simply squeezing everything I can out of my trade and taking a chance on one more player?
I'm in agreement with you that trader down Rick was more myth than reality. However, in fantasy football you are capped on how many players you can draft while in the NFL you aren't. For every trade down you do in fantasy football there has to be a corresponding trade up.
I'm not sure where you're coming from with the corresponding trade up?
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3358
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 648

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:56 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:23 am
I'm in agreement with you that trader down Rick was more myth than reality. However, in fantasy football you are capped on how many players you can draft while in the NFL you aren't. For every trade down you do in fantasy football there has to be a corresponding trade up.
I'm not sure where you're coming from with the corresponding trade up?
During the draft you can't do a straight up 2 for one trade in fantasy football. For example you cant trade pick 54 for picks 64 and 89. You would have to include say pick 126. So for trading 54 for 64 your compensation is pick 89 for 126. That would be the trade up part of the trade.
StanM
Starter
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:46 am
x 83

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by StanM »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:48 am Is it just me or does KOC look a bit/lot like Leo DiCaprio.
He reminds me of a young Bud Grant so I hope that proves to be a good omen.
StanM
Starter
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:46 am
x 83

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by StanM »

vikeinmontana wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:03 am
StanM wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:51 am These arguments about a draft pick’s previous legal problems are never going to be resolved. Why don’t we just cut to the chase and ask those who don’t support the pick what their bottom line is? Are those of you who don’t support it advocating for all of us not supporting the Vikings? Outrage over assault is a valid moral position, so is giving a young man who was not convicted an opportunity. Arguments can and are being made for both positions and those positions are going to reflect the personal convictions of everyone who comments. That is the kind of thread that can go on forever without ever resolving.

It would seem to me that those who don’t agree with the pick and can no longer support the team would want to move on. Yet here they are quoting court cases and debating how the legal system works. Damn if we aren’t a smart talented group of fans. Why, just a few days ago I marveled at the draft stats and expertise that even scouts, GM’s and coaches don’t have all right here on the Vikes board. Draft experts, judges, high roller attorneys, NFL scouting experts, we have it all. What a great place. Go Vikings, how about those draft choices and all the exciting football we will see this fall?

This post does include some sarcasm in case anyone didn’t catch the gist of what I’m saying. These kinds of discussions never resolve and are the kind of topics that make enemies out of friends. I am not a moderator here and am just an insignificant newcomer but it seemed like a good time to sit back and take a deep breath and have a group hug before the next crisis. :beerock:
Love your perspective. Thanks
You're welcome but I don't think it will stop any dead end debates. A lot of people won't let up in online debates until they get a thumbs up on their viewpoint from everyone. I prefer to concentrate on the football side of things and let the Vikings handle private issues behind closed doors. There is plenty happening out in the open to keep my feeble old mind occupied without having to dig up bones.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8924
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1029

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:03 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:56 am

I'm not sure where you're coming from with the corresponding trade up?
During the draft you can't do a straight up 2 for one trade in fantasy football. For example you cant trade pick 54 for picks 64 and 89. You would have to include say pick 126. So for trading 54 for 64 your compensation is pick 89 for 126. That would be the trade up part of the trade.
Yeah in my league you can. I do an offline dynasty keeper league I've been running for 19 years now. So lets say you and I wanted to trade. If you offer me your 2nd and 3rd round pick for my 1st round pick lets say, it just means my draft would be ending one round earlier than yours because I gained an extra pick. So in a 20 round draft, I'd only be picking to round 19. Although we have a 9 keeper max in my league. So I'd only be picking to round 10 not 11.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
Cliff
Site Admin
Posts: 9190
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:51 pm
Location: Kentucky
x 324

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Cliff »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:06 am
Texas Vike wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:28 am

No one has any trouble understanding anything. I just don't think you are representing reality in an objective way, due to your love of Rick.

You say RS would trade down 5 spots and additionally get a 7th as a bonus. It's not lost on me what he was doing. Here's what you are not recognizing: he would do that 4 times in a row (as in the (in)famous 2019 draft), thus he would ultimately move back 20+ spots and by doing so he'd stockpile 6th and 7th round picks.

Kwesi similarly moved down 20 spots in the first round of this draft. But here's the difference: Rick's 6th and 7th rounders NEVER made any impact. If they had, we wouldn't be lacking so much depth on D. Those picks would routinely be training camp fodder. OTOH, I'm willing to bet that Cine and Booth will make contributions.
So since he traded down that far one time in 2019, that means "Rick loves stockpiling 7th rounders"? Most of his 7th round picks came from throw in picks or compensatory picks given by the league.

You cant sit there and tell me that if we still had Rick and he did EXACTLY what Kwesi did, people wouldnt be blowing a lid over it. I can 1000% guarantee people would be in an uproar. "Trader Rick this.. and Trader Rick that". And "all he ever wants to do is trade down". Blah blah blah.

I believe Cine and Booth will both make contributions too. But it was just last year where Rick traded down in round 1 and landed Christian Darrisaw who also made a big contribution. With that trade it also landed us Mond and Davis who the jury is still out on.

Point is, this whole trading back thing with Rick is massively overblown IMO. I wasnt even mad that Kwesi did. I just believe he should've gotten more than what he got in terms of draft pick capital. If there are a lot of guys you like in the middle rounds or whatever it may be, moving back is smart.

Nobody will ever be able to convince me that drafting 7 players over 10 players gives you a better chance to hit. When you get to the mid to late rounds, your hit rate drastically drops. So if I could have one 5th round pick or lets say three 7th round picks, I take three 7ths any day of the week.

Again, since I like to squeeze late round picks out of people in trades in fantasy football, does that mean I like "stockpiling late round picks"? Or am I simply squeezing everything I can out of my trade and taking a chance on one more player?
Looking at 2013 - 2018 (picks that have firmly had 3+ years to "prove" themselves) Rick actually went out of his way to have higher picks. Eight 1st rounders within that span. I think one of those years he had three 1st round picks. Unfortunately, only one of those picks panned out and is still with the team within that span.

As far as this year's draft, I don't really understand the "value" arguments. So many different stats and point systems. Some for, some against ... how do you really justify using one over the other? In the end, the draft will be judged by how the players perform. We'll see soon enough.
User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7666
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 696

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by VikingLord »

StanM wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:51 am These arguments about a draft pick’s previous legal problems are never going to be resolved. Why don’t we just cut to the chase and ask those who don’t support the pick what their bottom line is? Are those of you who don’t support it advocating for all of us not supporting the Vikings? Outrage over assault is a valid moral position, so is giving a young man who was not convicted an opportunity. Arguments can and are being made for both positions and those positions are going to reflect the personal convictions of everyone who comments. That is the kind of thread that can go on forever without ever resolving.

It would seem to me that those who don’t agree with the pick and can no longer support the team would want to move on. Yet here they are quoting court cases and debating how the legal system works. Damn if we aren’t a smart talented group of fans. Why, just a few days ago I marveled at the draft stats and expertise that even scouts, GM’s and coaches don’t have all right here on the Vikes board. Draft experts, judges, high roller attorneys, NFL scouting experts, we have it all. What a great place. Go Vikings, how about those draft choices and all the exciting football we will see this fall?

This post does include some sarcasm in case anyone didn’t catch the gist of what I’m saying. These kinds of discussions never resolve and are the kind of topics that make enemies out of friends. I am not a moderator here and am just an insignificant newcomer but it seemed like a good time to sit back and take a deep breath and have a group hug before the next crisis. :beerock:
Very reasonable and fair perspective on the topic of all the draft expertise, GMs and coaches we have here on this board...

:lol:

In all seriousness, we have a justice system and a civil system that is imperfect, but its also the best we have. If someone is accused of something, they get their day in court, and if they are not convicted, then in all fairness they should be able to move on.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8924
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1029

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Cliff wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:32 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:06 am

So since he traded down that far one time in 2019, that means "Rick loves stockpiling 7th rounders"? Most of his 7th round picks came from throw in picks or compensatory picks given by the league.

You cant sit there and tell me that if we still had Rick and he did EXACTLY what Kwesi did, people wouldnt be blowing a lid over it. I can 1000% guarantee people would be in an uproar. "Trader Rick this.. and Trader Rick that". And "all he ever wants to do is trade down". Blah blah blah.

I believe Cine and Booth will both make contributions too. But it was just last year where Rick traded down in round 1 and landed Christian Darrisaw who also made a big contribution. With that trade it also landed us Mond and Davis who the jury is still out on.

Point is, this whole trading back thing with Rick is massively overblown IMO. I wasnt even mad that Kwesi did. I just believe he should've gotten more than what he got in terms of draft pick capital. If there are a lot of guys you like in the middle rounds or whatever it may be, moving back is smart.

Nobody will ever be able to convince me that drafting 7 players over 10 players gives you a better chance to hit. When you get to the mid to late rounds, your hit rate drastically drops. So if I could have one 5th round pick or lets say three 7th round picks, I take three 7ths any day of the week.

Again, since I like to squeeze late round picks out of people in trades in fantasy football, does that mean I like "stockpiling late round picks"? Or am I simply squeezing everything I can out of my trade and taking a chance on one more player?
Looking at 2013 - 2018 (picks that have firmly had 3+ years to "prove" themselves) Rick actually went out of his way to have higher picks. Eight 1st rounders within that span. I think one of those years he had three 1st round picks. Unfortunately, only one of those picks panned out and is still with the team within that span.

As far as this year's draft, I don't really understand the "value" arguments. So many different stats and point systems. Some for, some against ... how do you really justify using one over the other? In the end, the draft will be judged by how the players perform. We'll see soon enough.
Agreed.

And the value argument I'm not necessarily saying they should've followed some sort of chart of anything. It's just that we moved out of a prime position at 12 and went WAY down to a less prime position. I feel like we should have gotten a first rounder the following year. That's my main beef. The fact we moved down 20 picks in the first round and didnt land a 2023 first round. And imagine landing Detroits first rounder? We'd be in prime position to draft a QB of the future next year.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9375
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1616

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Cliff wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 9:42 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:51 pm
Oops. Sorry. Didn't see this.
I deleted your post out of fairness. I deleted a couple of other posts too.
Not a problem. Appreciate your work!
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3358
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 648

Re: Post Draft thoughts

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:22 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:03 pm
During the draft you can't do a straight up 2 for one trade in fantasy football. For example you cant trade pick 54 for picks 64 and 89. You would have to include say pick 126. So for trading 54 for 64 your compensation is pick 89 for 126. That would be the trade up part of the trade.
Yeah in my league you can. I do an offline dynasty keeper league I've been running for 19 years now. So lets say you and I wanted to trade. If you offer me your 2nd and 3rd round pick for my 1st round pick lets say, it just means my draft would be ending one round earlier than yours because I gained an extra pick. So in a 20 round draft, I'd only be picking to round 19. Although we have a 9 keeper max in my league. So I'd only be picking to round 10 not 11.
That's very strange. So what happens to a team if they run out of draft picks. They have to wait until Free agency to fill their roster?