Ty Chandler

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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:27 am
CharVike wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:14 am
Thielen hasn't played every game since 2018 and I don't see that changing and he's not cheap either.
I think Cook and Thielen have both played often enough and well enough to justify their salaries, but that is debatable. Cook being worth more than $4 Million a year shouldn't be debatable. Other than somebody on a rookie contract show me a Viking at around $4 million a year who produces more value to us than Cook.
I have nothing against Cook. He's the best all around back we have ever had and will fit the new scheme. The only guy with more value than Cook is Cousins. That goes with the position. Cousins missed one game since coming here and we were destroyed by a team he beat early in the season.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:26 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:27 am
I think Cook and Thielen have both played often enough and well enough to justify their salaries, but that is debatable. Cook being worth more than $4 Million a year shouldn't be debatable. Other than somebody on a rookie contract show me a Viking at around $4 million a year who produces more value to us than Cook.
I have nothing against Cook. He's the best all around back we have ever had and will fit the new scheme. The only guy with more value than Cook is Cousins. That goes with the position. Cousins missed one game since coming here and we were destroyed by a team he beat early in the season.
Kapp is a smart guy. One of the smartest guys on the board if not the smartest guy on the board. However, IMO he's completely lost it with this no more than $4 million for a running back no matter how good that RB is stance. I think he knows better, but he's stubbornly holding on to that stance. If Cook's contract was suddenly voided and he said to help the team I will accept a contract for $4million and one dollars it seems Kapp would say sorry that's too much. Either accept $4million or we're letting you go. He can't really mean that can he?
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:41 am
CharVike wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:26 am
I have nothing against Cook. He's the best all around back we have ever had and will fit the new scheme. The only guy with more value than Cook is Cousins. That goes with the position. Cousins missed one game since coming here and we were destroyed by a team he beat early in the season.
Kapp is a smart guy. One of the smartest guys on the board if not the smartest guy on the board. However, IMO he's completely lost it with this no more than $4 million for a running back no matter how good that RB is stance. I think he knows better, but he's stubbornly holding on to that stance. If Cook's contract was suddenly voided and he said to help the team I will accept a contract for $4million and one dollars it seems Kapp would say sorry that's too much. Either accept $4million or we're letting you go. He can't really mean that can he?
We will all take a stance. Kapp is a long time fan and shares his insights. We won't all agree with those insights. Cook helps our team but I also feel we overpaid for the position he plays. The cap management on our team has been bad for a long time. Even our best OL player O'neil is overpaid. Smith at safety is overpaid. Hunter is overpaid for what he has done the last 2 seasons. We paid to hold the spot for him. Cousins was overpaid because we haven't been able to draft a long term QB for decades and we were desperate and got into a bidding war. That's free agency. Our new group will make decisions and not everyone will agree with those. I hated the trade down in the draft. Others liked it. Some hated that G we drafted in round 2 because of charges against him. He might be a rookie starter because we have nothing at G and he is a good prospect that had an issue in the past as a minor. He didn't go to jail or he wouldn't be here. He never would have played college ball. It's only people's views. We all have them. For us Cook is here and he is a dam good player. He's explosive which is needed on offense.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:31 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:41 am
Kapp is a smart guy. One of the smartest guys on the board if not the smartest guy on the board. However, IMO he's completely lost it with this no more than $4 million for a running back no matter how good that RB is stance. I think he knows better, but he's stubbornly holding on to that stance. If Cook's contract was suddenly voided and he said to help the team I will accept a contract for $4million and one dollars it seems Kapp would say sorry that's too much. Either accept $4million or we're letting you go. He can't really mean that can he?
We will all take a stance. Kapp is a long time fan and shares his insights. We won't all agree with those insights. Cook helps our team but I also feel we overpaid for the position he plays. The cap management on our team has been bad for a long time. Even our best OL player O'neil is overpaid. Smith at safety is overpaid. Hunter is overpaid for what he has done the last 2 seasons. We paid to hold the spot for him. Cousins was overpaid because we haven't been able to draft a long term QB for decades and we were desperate and got into a bidding war. That's free agency. Our new group will make decisions and not everyone will agree with those. I hated the trade down in the draft. Others liked it. Some hated that G we drafted in round 2 because of charges against him. He might be a rookie starter because we have nothing at G and he is a good prospect that had an issue in the past as a minor. He didn't go to jail or he wouldn't be here. He never would have played college ball. It's only people's views. We all have them. For us Cook is here and he is a dam good player. He's explosive which is needed on offense.
Cook may be overpaid, but not at $4million and 1 dollars.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 10:40 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:06 pm
Exactly.

I said this two years ago about Dalvin Cook and just about got laughed off the board. I also said I wouldn’t pay a running back more than $4 million … again, howls of laughter.

Now we have a modern NFL coach with a high IQ in the passing game, yet we pay our 3/4 time running back $13 million while we scream about cap space. Who’s laughing now? I’ll tell you who. Los Angeles, which had no RB start more than 10 games when they won The Bowl last year. Tampa Bay, who won a SB two years ago with a running back on a 1-year, $3 million deal. The Chiefs, whose leading rusher had fewer than 500 yards. The Patriots, who paid their RB1 $480,000. The Eagles, whose RB1 had 700 yards and made $1.25 million. Need I go on?

This has nothing to do with Dalvin Cook. It has everything to do with the fact that modern NFL teams don’t need a highly paid running back who threatens 2,000 yards. The last team to win the Super Bowl with the NFL’s leading rusher was Denver in 1998. That’s 24 years ago if you’re counting.

And frankly, I’m tired of talking about how good Dalvin Cook could be if he could stay healthy. He can’t. Don’t get me wrong. He’s fun to watch. If he’s wearing Vikings purple, I’m cheering my butt off for him. I love Cook. But I loved him more on his rookie deal. Drafting a guy like Chandler is smart. He’s pretty much what you look for in a modern RB — fast, good runner, good in pass pro, good receiver … and cheap.
Kapp I still howl with laughter over your idea not to pay any RB more than $4 million a year. Dalvin has played most of the games the last two years and has been great. I'm very glad we have him and I don't mind the amount of cap he is taking up.
Sorry man, but you’re not looking at this like a GM, unless it’s a fantasy GM.

Teams that pay running backs big money don’t win Super Bowls. It’s really that simple. Instead of laughing at me, look it up. Look at all the Super Bowl rosters over the past 10 years, both winners and losers, and check their running back salaries on overthecap or Spotrac. Most of the teams with the highest-paid running backs don’t even make the playoffs. Or if they do, like Tennessee as CharVike pointed out, they exit quickly.

I do not care about individual accomplishments, fantasy points, or once-in-a-blue-moon exciting runs. I’ve been a fan since 1969, and I’m tired of seeing other teams win the Super Bowl every year. It has been 45 years since we even MADE a Super Bowl.

Everybody who worships Dalvin Cook needs to come to grips with the fact that this may well be his last year as a Viking. He’s entering his 6th year, an eternity for a running back. He’s played in just 56 of a possible 90 games. And he’s going to account for a $12 million cap hit this year and $14 million next year. My belief is that the Vikings will either release him after this season, saving $8 million against the cap, or trade him. Laugh if you want, but you should know that people also laughed when I called both AP’s release and the Diggs trade long before they happened.

And then, you watch. Kwesi will never again put the team on the hook for big money to a running back. He’s all about value, and a running back at $14 million is about as far from value as you can get.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:33 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 10:40 pm
Kapp I still howl with laughter over your idea not to pay any RB more than $4 million a year. Dalvin has played most of the games the last two years and has been great. I'm very glad we have him and I don't mind the amount of cap he is taking up.
Sorry man, but you’re not looking at this like a GM, unless it’s a fantasy GM.

Teams that pay running backs big money don’t win Super Bowls. It’s really that simple. Instead of laughing at me, look it up. Look at all the Super Bowl rosters over the past 10 years, both winners and losers, and check their running back salaries on overthecap or Spotrac. Most of the teams with the highest-paid running backs don’t even make the playoffs. Or if they do, like Tennessee as CharVike pointed out, they exit quickly.

I do not care about individual accomplishments, fantasy points, or once-in-a-blue-moon exciting runs. I’ve been a fan since 1969, and I’m tired of seeing other teams win the Super Bowl every year. It has been 45 years since we even MADE a Super Bowl.

Everybody who worships Dalvin Cook needs to come to grips with the fact that this may well be his last year as a Viking. He’s entering his 6th year, an eternity for a running back. He’s played in just 56 of a possible 90 games. And he’s going to account for a $12 million cap hit this year and $14 million next year. My belief is that the Vikings will either release him after this season, saving $8 million against the cap, or trade him. Laugh if you want, but you should know that people also laughed when I called both AP’s release and the Diggs trade long before they happened.

And then, you watch. Kwesi will never again put the team on the hook for big money to a running back. He’s all about value, and a running back at $14 million is about as far from value as you can get.
Where did I advocate for paying any RB big money. My only claim was that your stance that you NEVER pay any RB no matter how good over $4million is worthy of me and anybody else howling with laughter. In your supposed response to my comment you never even mention the amount I'm howling with laughter over. Instead you're talking 12 Million and 14 Million. You've read my subsequent responses. Don't try to misrepresent me. I am personally OK with Dalvin's contract, but I have no problem with you or anybody else thinking it's too much. I even said it may be too much myself, but you know as well as I do that some RBs are worth over $4Million.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:42 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:33 pm
Sorry man, but you’re not looking at this like a GM, unless it’s a fantasy GM.

Teams that pay running backs big money don’t win Super Bowls. It’s really that simple. Instead of laughing at me, look it up. Look at all the Super Bowl rosters over the past 10 years, both winners and losers, and check their running back salaries on overthecap or Spotrac. Most of the teams with the highest-paid running backs don’t even make the playoffs. Or if they do, like Tennessee as CharVike pointed out, they exit quickly.

I do not care about individual accomplishments, fantasy points, or once-in-a-blue-moon exciting runs. I’ve been a fan since 1969, and I’m tired of seeing other teams win the Super Bowl every year. It has been 45 years since we even MADE a Super Bowl.

Everybody who worships Dalvin Cook needs to come to grips with the fact that this may well be his last year as a Viking. He’s entering his 6th year, an eternity for a running back. He’s played in just 56 of a possible 90 games. And he’s going to account for a $12 million cap hit this year and $14 million next year. My belief is that the Vikings will either release him after this season, saving $8 million against the cap, or trade him. Laugh if you want, but you should know that people also laughed when I called both AP’s release and the Diggs trade long before they happened.

And then, you watch. Kwesi will never again put the team on the hook for big money to a running back. He’s all about value, and a running back at $14 million is about as far from value as you can get.
Where did I advocate for paying any RB big money. My only claim was that your stance that you NEVER pay any RB no matter how good over $4million is worthy of me and anybody else howling with laughter. In your supposed response to my comment you never even mention the amount I'm howling with laughter over. Instead you're talking 12 Million and 14 Million. You've read my subsequent responses. Don't try to misrepresent me. I am personally OK with Dalvin's contract, but I have no problem with you or anybody else thinking it's too much. I even said it may be too much myself, but you know as well as I do that some RBs are worth over $4Million.
In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan, “There you go again.”

You said, and I quote: “I'm very glad we have him and I don't mind the amount of cap he is taking up.” That’s word for word. Nobody put words in your mouth. You’re OK with Cook’s salary, and I laugh at YOU. It’s insane.

Meanwhile, I challenge you to look up running back salaries for Super Bowl teams over the last 10 years. I’m guessing you won’t do it because 1) you never look anything up, and 2) you already know I’m right. You’d rather just sit there and make fun of a proven philosophy. Do you think I pulled that $4 million number out of thin air? It’s based on the top end of what actual Super Bowl contending teams pay their RB1.

In today’s NFL, overpaying for running backs, non-pass-rushing linebackers and safeties leads to teams not contending. The Vikings are doing it with all three, yet Vikings fans complain that we don’t sign positions of need in free agency. Gee, I wonder why? I’d rather overpay for Kirk Cousins than Dalvin Cook because Cousins plays a premium position and Cook does not.

Like I said, laugh all you want. But a year from now, you won’t be laughing. Given a choice between taking a $14 million cap hit for a running back or saving $8 million by cutting him, I’m pretty sure Kwesi will opt for the savings, especially if Cook continues his 62% availability rate.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:13 amExactly.

I said this two years ago about Dalvin Cook and just about got laughed off the board. I also said I wouldn’t pay a running back more than $4 million … again, howls of laughter.

Now we have a modern NFL coach with a high IQ in the passing game, yet we pay our 3/4 time running back $13 million while we scream about cap space. Who’s laughing now? I’ll tell you who. Los Angeles, which had no RB start more than 10 games when they won The Bowl last year. Tampa Bay, who won a SB two years ago with a running back on a 1-year, $3 million deal. The Chiefs, whose leading rusher had fewer than 500 yards. The Patriots, who paid their RB1 $480,000. The Eagles, whose RB1 had 700 yards and made $1.25 million. Need I go on?

This has nothing to do with Dalvin Cook. It has everything to do with the fact that modern NFL teams don’t need a highly paid running back who threatens 2,000 yards. The last team to win the Super Bowl with the NFL’s leading rusher was Denver in 1998. That’s 24 years ago if you’re counting.

And frankly, I’m tired of talking about how good Dalvin Cook could be if he could stay healthy. He can’t. Don’t get me wrong. He’s fun to watch. If he’s wearing Vikings purple, I’m cheering my butt off for him. I love Cook. But I loved him more on his rookie deal. Drafting a guy like Chandler is smart. He’s pretty much what you look for in a modern RB — fast, good runner, good in pass pro, good receiver … and cheap.
I agree with you overall, especially with Cook's injury history, but there is one x-factor; he's also a very good pass catcher. Zimmer's offense forced him into the more traditional role most years but I believe he thrives and is most valuable as a hybrid threat. In fact, under Kevin Stefanski in 2019 he had 53 receptions for 519 yards on top of his 1135 rushing yards and that was with his normal missing two games. That's comparable to what Deebo Samuels did last year just reversed receiving and rushing stats and in two fewer games.

Cook could be extremely successful as a hybrid-threat or that workhorse RB if you need him to be for a specific game.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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You may find some exception that proves the rule about a RB not being paid more than 4 Million, but it's a solid rule of thumb, and coming up with 4,000,001 as a counterpoint is just absurdity. Kapp's point stands as a rule of thumb, though of course there could be an exception, like a Deebo Samuel type player who is functionally also a dynamic and incredibly physical receiving threat. Maybe Dalvin will be used more creatively under KOC and increase his value. It's possible. But in the meantime, its a bad idea to sign RBs to second contracts unless they are inexpensive deals or are exceptions that prove the rule.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:13 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:42 pm
Where did I advocate for paying any RB big money. My only claim was that your stance that you NEVER pay any RB no matter how good over $4million is worthy of me and anybody else howling with laughter. In your supposed response to my comment you never even mention the amount I'm howling with laughter over. Instead you're talking 12 Million and 14 Million. You've read my subsequent responses. Don't try to misrepresent me. I am personally OK with Dalvin's contract, but I have no problem with you or anybody else thinking it's too much. I even said it may be too much myself, but you know as well as I do that some RBs are worth over $4Million.
In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan, “There you go again.”

You said, and I quote: “I'm very glad we have him and I don't mind the amount of cap he is taking up.” That’s word for word. Nobody put words in your mouth. You’re OK with Cook’s salary, and I laugh at YOU. It’s insane.

Meanwhile, I challenge you to look up running back salaries for Super Bowl teams over the last 10 years. I’m guessing you won’t do it because 1) you never look anything up, and 2) you already know I’m right. You’d rather just sit there and make fun of a proven philosophy. Do you think I pulled that $4 million number out of thin air? It’s based on the top end of what actual Super Bowl contending teams pay their RB1.

In today’s NFL, overpaying for running backs, non-pass-rushing linebackers and safeties leads to teams not contending. The Vikings are doing it with all three, yet Vikings fans complain that we don’t sign positions of need in free agency. Gee, I wonder why? I’d rather overpay for Kirk Cousins than Dalvin Cook because Cousins plays a premium position and Cook does not.

Like I said, laugh all you want. But a year from now, you won’t be laughing. Given a choice between taking a $14 million cap hit for a running back or saving $8 million by cutting him, I’m pretty sure Kwesi will opt for the savings, especially if Cook continues his 62% availability rate.
My saying I personally am OK with Cooks salary isn't the same as advocating for paying RBs big money. I also posted which you ignored that maybe Cook is overpaid. The ONLY issue I have with your stand is the howlingly laughable part about paying no RB over $4million no matter how good they are. I gave the example of Cooks contract being voided and him being willing to accept $4million and one dollars. Do you really believe we should let him walk over that one dollar?
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Re: Ty Chandler

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fiestavike wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:14 am You may find some exception that proves the rule about a RB not being paid more than 4 Million, but it's a solid rule of thumb, and coming up with 4,000,001 as a counterpoint is just absurdity. Kapp's point stands as a rule of thumb, though of course there could be an exception, like a Deebo Samuel type player who is functionally also a dynamic and incredibly physical receiving threat. Maybe Dalvin will be used more creatively under KOC and increase his value. It's possible. But in the meantime, its a bad idea to sign RBs to second contracts unless they are inexpensive deals or are exceptions that prove the rule.
The $4Million and one dollars is intentional absurdity regarding Kapp's IMO absurd stance of nothing over $4Million. I've given him every opportunity to admit he's being too Rigid, but he's never backed down from $4Million and not one penny more. Cook is easily worth more than $4million to us. Kapp is just being stubborn.

Thinks of players not on rookie contracts making $4million and try to find me one that you would take over Cook assuming no salary savings.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by fiestavike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:19 pm
fiestavike wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 11:14 am You may find some exception that proves the rule about a RB not being paid more than 4 Million, but it's a solid rule of thumb, and coming up with 4,000,001 as a counterpoint is just absurdity. Kapp's point stands as a rule of thumb, though of course there could be an exception, like a Deebo Samuel type player who is functionally also a dynamic and incredibly physical receiving threat. Maybe Dalvin will be used more creatively under KOC and increase his value. It's possible. But in the meantime, its a bad idea to sign RBs to second contracts unless they are inexpensive deals or are exceptions that prove the rule.
The $4Million and one dollars is intentional absurdity regarding Kapp's IMO absurd stance of nothing over $4Million. I've given him every opportunity to admit he's being too Rigid, but he's never backed down from $4Million and not one penny more. Cook is easily worth more than $4million to us. Kapp is just being stubborn.

Thinks of players not on rookie contracts making $4million and try to find me one that you would take over Cook assuming no salary savings.
Maybe, but most of his production could be replaced with a player on a rookie contract, and that's the reason RBs aren't worth much and aren't drafted early anymore. It's not the Cook isn't good, its that RB is the single easiest position to replace. If cook doesn't find himself more involved in the passing game under KOC, he is drastically overpaid. That doesn't mean Cook isn't an excellent RB.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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fiestavike wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:44 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:19 pm
The $4Million and one dollars is intentional absurdity regarding Kapp's IMO absurd stance of nothing over $4Million. I've given him every opportunity to admit he's being too Rigid, but he's never backed down from $4Million and not one penny more. Cook is easily worth more than $4million to us. Kapp is just being stubborn.

Thinks of players not on rookie contracts making $4million and try to find me one that you would take over Cook assuming no salary savings.
Maybe, but most of his production could be replaced with a player on a rookie contract, and that's the reason RBs aren't worth much and aren't drafted early anymore. It's not the Cook isn't good, its that RB is the single easiest position to replace. If cook doesn't find himself more involved in the passing game under KOC, he is drastically overpaid. That doesn't mean Cook isn't an excellent RB.
Ty Chandler will be our RB on a rookie contract. I like him, but I highly doubt he could replace most of Cooks production. In the world of NFL contracts $4million and one dollars is nothing. I'll take Cook for comparably nothing. Unfortunately we aren't paying him nothing. We are paying him a lot.
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Re: Ty Chandler

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 7:33 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 10:40 pm
Kapp I still howl with laughter over your idea not to pay any RB more than $4 million a year. Dalvin has played most of the games the last two years and has been great. I'm very glad we have him and I don't mind the amount of cap he is taking up.
Sorry man, but you’re not looking at this like a GM, unless it’s a fantasy GM.

Teams that pay running backs big money don’t win Super Bowls. It’s really that simple. Instead of laughing at me, look it up. Look at all the Super Bowl rosters over the past 10 years, both winners and losers, and check their running back salaries on overthecap or Spotrac. Most of the teams with the highest-paid running backs don’t even make the playoffs. Or if they do, like Tennessee as CharVike pointed out, they exit quickly.

I do not care about individual accomplishments, fantasy points, or once-in-a-blue-moon exciting runs. I’ve been a fan since 1969, and I’m tired of seeing other teams win the Super Bowl every year. It has been 45 years since we even MADE a Super Bowl.

Everybody who worships Dalvin Cook needs to come to grips with the fact that this may well be his last year as a Viking. He’s entering his 6th year, an eternity for a running back. He’s played in just 56 of a possible 90 games. And he’s going to account for a $12 million cap hit this year and $14 million next year. My belief is that the Vikings will either release him after this season, saving $8 million against the cap, or trade him. Laugh if you want, but you should know that people also laughed when I called both AP’s release and the Diggs trade long before they happened.

And then, you watch. Kwesi will never again put the team on the hook for big money to a running back. He’s all about value, and a running back at $14 million is about as far from value as you can get.
I agree with your premise Kapp. You simply don't win it all on the backs of your RB's anymore.

Where I tend to disagree is that all teams aren't built equally. Thus all salary caps won't look the same. You know what else nearly all champs have had in common over the last 20+ years? Elite QB play. Often hall-of-fame QB play. Aside from the anomalies such as Flacco, Foles and Dilfer that everyone mentions, nearly every other team has had unquestioned elite QB play. Those teams won't, and don't need to, overpay for RB's.

The goal is still winning it all. Only one does. The other 31 do not. So all of the teams without an elite QB need to do whatever they can to win with the roster they have. If we had Pat Mahomes I don't believe for a second we would have given a guy like Dalvin the money we did. But as it stands, and when the contract was given, Dalvin was the guy that was our best option to win football games. I don't love it. But you see every team without elite QB's overpay at other positions to land guys that they consider their best players. Dalvin is one of our best players, at the risk of starting our 1,639th debate on how good Kirk is.... :whistle:

I can assure you that if we ever land a hall-of-fame type player at the QB position, we'll never pay a RB over 5 million again.
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Re: Ty Chandler

Post by VikingsVictorious »

I'm playing the price is right. Kapp has Dalvin at $4Million
I go $4Million and 1. Anything over $4 million i win. His cap hit this year is just a little under $12 Million, but goes up to 14 million and 15 million in 23 and 24. Dead Cap those two years is 6Million and 3Million. I agree we can't really afford to pay him that much those two years. We save 8Million by letting him walk next year and 12Million the following year. We probably let him go next year or for sure the year after unless a new deal can be worked out saving us a sheetload of money. Hopefully Ty Chandler is as good as we think he can be.