DeShawn Watson?

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

4mnvikes1982 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:00 am
VikingLord wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:03 am

Plus, they'd likely have to spend their 1st rounder on him and maybe even trade up to get him depending on how he shows prior to the draft. I get the sense Willis is the sort of player who is going to get a lot of QB needy GMs to fall in love with his potential prior to draft day.

As an additional comment to your earlier points about Willis and Deshaun Watson, I agree with what you're saying. I didn't mean to imply that Willis can come in and perform at the level of Watson, but more that he resembles Watson in terms of play style, athleticism, and potential as a pro. If the Vikings drafted him I'd want them to keep Cousins as the starter for at least a year because Willis is going to take time before he's ready.
This kid reminds me of Jamarcus Russell, high praise in college But mediocre in the pros
How is that even possible? He isn’t a pro yet.

Plus, Russell was a big, lumbering pocket passer with a bad attitude and lazy work ethic. Willis, by all accounts, is a hard worker who respects his coaches.

Just because a guy is raw and in need of seasoning doesn’t warrant a comparison to one of the biggest busts in the history of the league.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

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VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:31 pm
Another absurd reply as I have learned to expect. Cousins has succeeded many, many times and has never had perfect conditions.
When has he succeeded? I see a QB 10 seasons in who has never made it past the divisional round and has only won 10 games in a season once. In the things that should matter to fans of a football team versus a player, he has been a complete failure his entire career.
You used to be all about the last minute drives being all that mattered.
And you used to downplay the fact that our QB sucked in those situations for 3 straight seasons, but in the one fluke season where he did okay (he was very average statistically when down a score or less in the final 2 minutes of games), it suddenly matters more than anything.


And I am really sorry I look up numbers to backup what I say instead of just throwing things out there, but that isn't digging deeeeeep, it is backing up what I say with facts.

The check downs fans care about when they call him captain check down, are the ones that happen on 3rd down that result in punts. And he does that more than the majority of QBs.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:53 am
4mnvikes1982 wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:00 am
This kid reminds me of Jamarcus Russell, high praise in college But mediocre in the pros
How is that even possible? He isn’t a pro yet.

Plus, Russell was a big, lumbering pocket passer with a bad attitude and lazy work ethic. Willis, by all accounts, is a hard worker who respects his coaches.

Just because a guy is raw and in need of seasoning doesn’t warrant a comparison to one of the biggest busts in the history of the league.
The comparisons people are making seem to be more related to how the player looks than anything they have done on the field.
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VikingsVictorious
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by VikingsVictorious »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:12 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 4:31 pm
Another absurd reply as I have learned to expect. Cousins has succeeded many, many times and has never had perfect conditions.
When has he succeeded? I see a QB 10 seasons in who has never made it past the divisional round and has only won 10 games in a season once. In the things that should matter to fans of a football team versus a player, he has been a complete failure his entire career.
You used to be all about the last minute drives being all that mattered.
And you used to downplay the fact that our QB sucked in those situations for 3 straight seasons, but in the one fluke season where he did okay (he was very average statistically when down a score or less in the final 2 minutes of games), it suddenly matters more than anything.


And I am really sorry I look up numbers to backup what I say instead of just throwing things out there, but that isn't digging deeeeeep, it is backing up what I say with facts.

The check downs fans care about when they call him captain check down, are the ones that happen on 3rd down that result in punts. And he does that more than the majority of QBs.
Every time he leads us to a score he succeeds. He has no control over wins and losses and you know this. You dig deeeeep for the stats that support your positions and ignore the far more common ones that don't.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:23 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:53 am
How is that even possible? He isn’t a pro yet.

Plus, Russell was a big, lumbering pocket passer with a bad attitude and lazy work ethic. Willis, by all accounts, is a hard worker who respects his coaches.

Just because a guy is raw and in need of seasoning doesn’t warrant a comparison to one of the biggest busts in the history of the league.
The comparisons people are making seem to be more related to how the player looks than anything they have done on the field.
Both how he looks and how he plays, but as Kapp pointed out, Watson came in more polished and pro-ready than Willis.

Whether Willis ends up a bust will depend in large part on the situation he finds himself in after he's drafted. If he's thrust into an immediate starter, must-save-the-franchise role, I don't see how he succeeds long term. If he's in a situation where he can sit and learn and develop for at least a year, the chances of him realizing his potential go way up.

The Vikings would be a great place for a player like him to land.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:23 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:53 am
How is that even possible? He isn’t a pro yet.

Plus, Russell was a big, lumbering pocket passer with a bad attitude and lazy work ethic. Willis, by all accounts, is a hard worker who respects his coaches.

Just because a guy is raw and in need of seasoning doesn’t warrant a comparison to one of the biggest busts in the history of the league.
The comparisons people are making seem to be more related to how the player looks than anything they have done on the field.
If you're implying what I think you're implying, then I truly hope you're wrong.

I would hate to think we still make judgments on quarterbacks based on the color of their skin.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:12 am He has no control over wins and losses and you know this.
I do know that. He is just along for the ride and will win or lose based on how well the rest of the team does around him. Other QBs elevate their teammates and overcome adversity to help their team win more than they lose, but you are right, Cousins doesn't do that. Well worth 20% of the cap.

Glad we are on the same page.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by VikingsVictorious »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:56 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:12 am He has no control over wins and losses and you know this.
I do know that. He is just along for the ride and will win or lose based on how well the rest of the team does around him. Other QBs elevate their teammates and overcome adversity to help their team win more than they lose, but you are right, Cousins doesn't do that. Well worth 20% of the cap.

Glad we are on the same page.
Sure Mr. Spin Master. We're on the same page. Not.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by JJBreaksRecords »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:03 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:56 pm
I do know that. He is just along for the ride and will win or lose based on how well the rest of the team does around him. Other QBs elevate their teammates and overcome adversity to help their team win more than they lose, but you are right, Cousins doesn't do that. Well worth 20% of the cap.

Glad we are on the same page.
Sure Mr. Spin Master. We're on the same page. Not.
Perhaps proving him wrong for once would help whatever point it is you are try to make? :lol:
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by VikingsVictorious »

JJBreaksRecords wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:48 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 2:03 pm
Sure Mr. Spin Master. We're on the same page. Not.
Perhaps proving him wrong for once would help whatever point it is you are try to make? :lol:
Stump is a chameleon. He hates Cousins no matter what and will just continuously look for some way to back his stance. When that stat becomes wrong he will look for another. However, all the normal stats indicate that Stump is wrong when it comes to Cousins 99% of the time.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Stump I want to revisit this quote from you as exhibit A why you are a horrible researcher.

And I am really sorry I look up numbers to backup what I say instead of just throwing things out there, but that isn't digging deeeeeep, it is backing up what I say with facts.

Those words are the very cardinal sin of bad research. You're not supposed to start with a premise/conclusion and then look for the stats that back it up. If you were a researcher working for a science company and they saw you do that you would probably get fired on the spot. You're supposed to look at all the evidence and come up with conclusions based on that.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Stump I want to revisit this quote from you as exhibit A why you are a horrible researcher.

And I am really sorry I look up numbers to backup what I say instead of just throwing things out there, but that isn't digging deeeeeep, it is backing up what I say with facts.

You should be really sorry you look up numbers to back up what you say. You've incriminated yourself with your own words. You look up numbers to back up what you say. Those words are the very cardinal sin of bad research. You're not supposed to start with a premise/conclusion and then look for the stats/numbers that back it up. If you were a researcher working for a science company and they saw you do that you would probably get fired on the spot. You're supposed to look at all the evidence and come up with conclusions based on that.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:45 am Stump I want to revisit this quote from you as exhibit A why you are a horrible researcher.

And I am really sorry I look up numbers to backup what I say instead of just throwing things out there, but that isn't digging deeeeeep, it is backing up what I say with facts.

You should be really sorry you look up numbers to back up what you say. Those words are the very cardinal sin of bad research. You're not supposed to start with a premise/conclusion and then look for the stats/numbers that back it up. If you were a researcher working for a science company and they saw you do that you would probably get fired on the spot. You're supposed to look at all the evidence and come up with conclusions based on that.
I am not an impartial researcher and never claimed to be one. I have opinions, and unlike most fans, have the ability to confirm if those opinions could be correct based on the numbers.

You can then give your dissenting statistics to counter my point and we can agree to disagree.

It is the way this board is supposed to work, but instead people get all upset about dissenting opinions because they aren't secure enough in their own takes to let things go.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

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StumpHunter wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:56 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:12 am He has no control over wins and losses and you know this.
I do know that. He is just along for the ride and will win or lose based on how well the rest of the team does around him. Other QBs elevate their teammates and overcome adversity to help their team win more than they lose, but you are right, Cousins doesn't do that. Well worth 20% of the cap.

Glad we are on the same page.
There is no qb in the league that can make a team that isn’t competitive, competitive. There’s a reason Mathew stafford won a Super Bowl with a completely stacked rams team but could win a single playoff game with the lions. There is maybe 3 quarters back in the whole league than can somewhat do what your claiming a good qb can do, team game.
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Re: DeShawn Watson?

Post by StumpHunter »

allday1991 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:24 am
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:56 pm
I do know that. He is just along for the ride and will win or lose based on how well the rest of the team does around him. Other QBs elevate their teammates and overcome adversity to help their team win more than they lose, but you are right, Cousins doesn't do that. Well worth 20% of the cap.

Glad we are on the same page.
There is no qb in the league that can make a team that isn’t competitive, competitive. There’s a reason Mathew stafford won a Super Bowl with a completely stacked rams team but could win a single playoff game with the lions. There is maybe 3 quarters back in the whole league than can somewhat do what your claiming a good qb can do, team game.
What exactly do you think I am claiming, because there are a lot more than 3 QBs who can do what I am claiming a good QB can do. Which is improve the team they play for significantly so they win more games.

Jackson, Rodgers, Wilson, Mahomes, Burrow, Allen for sure add wins over the average QB, and you could make the argument Murray and Herbert do the same.

You switch out any of those guys (when healthy) with the Derek Carr's, Kirk Cousins and Matt Ryans of the NFL and that team wins more games than with their current QBs.
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