Vikings "a good quarterback on a cheaper contract away from being dangerous"

[StumpHunter]

Garcon and Jackson in their primes and a really good Oline. Pretty much the Detroit Lions.

1.) Hah well I guess jokes on you because in 2015 Garçon and Jackson were both 29. Not sure where that classifies as them being in their “prime”. And to add onto that, Jackson played half the season.

Come 2016, both garçon and Jackson were 30 and played a full year just about.

Come 2017 both were gone.

2.) And mind you, their starting RBs those 3 years:

2015: Alfred Morris (who didn’t break 800 yards and scored 1 TD)
2016: Robert Kelly (no comment needed)
2017: Semaje Perine (a plodder of a RB)

3.) His offensive lines in 2015 and 2016 were solid. However in 2017, he was sacked 41 times. That line was horrid.

4.) Oh and one more thing:

Washington’s total defense those 3 years:

2015: 28th
2016: 28th
2017: 21st

So maybe they weren’t the Detroit Lions, but those Washington teams weren’t far off. And without cousins they probably would’ve been bottom of the barrel. Cousins got those teams to .500. Literally nobody else did. Not the defense, not the RBs, maybe the WRs one year. But it was cousins. Without cousins, those teams were picking top 5 every year with or without Jackson and Garçon.

So I can tell you that you’re going nowhere with this one. Those Washington teams were bad. In nearly every facet. So don’t even try to make yourself look like a fool and try and defend those teams. I’m helping you save face here.

Believe it or not, I don't blame Cousins for his failures in 2017, but then again I was only talking about when McVay was with the Redskins so I am not sure why you even brought that year up.

The other years he had a great Oline, and great WRs who were in their primes getting coached by one of the best offensive minds in the modern era. That amounted to 17-15-1 and a single blowout loss in the WC round.

In 2015, his defense gave up the 17th most points per drive of any defense, points given up by the D being the thing that makes it harder for a QB to win, not yards. 2016 was worse, but not insurmountable at 24th in the NFL.

However, I do find it funny though that so many fans give Stafford the Detroit excuse but don’t give cousins the Washington excuse acting like Washington was some sort of powerhouse that cousins couldn’t get over the hump. When at one point Stafford had a loaded defense for a couple years in Detroit and one of the best WRs to ever play the game in Calvin Johnson. Much better than Jackson and Garçon in their “29 year old prime”

Well here is the thing. When Stafford left Detroit, his team won 2 fewer games with the SB QB who replaced him. When Cousins left Washington, his team won the exact same amount of games with Alex Smith and a bunch of guys off the street.

When Stafford went to the Rams and replaced a borderline starter the Rams got better and won the SB. When Cousins came to the Vikings and replaced a borderline starter, they got much worse and didn't make the playoffs.

Those reasons are probably why fans give Stafford a pass and not Cousins, don't you think?

[allday1991]

This times 1000, anyone who thinks this team has the talent to compete with a "good quarterback" on a cheaper contract needs to take the purple sunglasses off, team is filled with holes.

I think the point of the "cheaper contract" would be to use the savings to fill a couple of those holes.

Does an extra 10-15 million and 2-3 decent players make this team “dangerous”? I really don’t think so, and the fact management has taken this approach for the last 3 years with no success I’d say all the evidence points to them being more than just a few good players away from great.

[Cliff]

I think the point of the "cheaper contract" would be to use the savings to fill a couple of those holes.

Does an extra 10-15 million and 2-3 decent players make this team “dangerous”? I really don’t think so, and the fact management has taken this approach for the last 3 years with no success I’d say all the evidence points to them being more than just a few good players away from great.

Where are you pulling the extra 10-15 million from? Kirk is 45m against the cap in 2022 isn't he? A replacement QB is going to take up some of that, of course. If there's a rookie at pick #12 that you want that would be ideal really. That would be a 3m cap hit leaving something like 30-40m to spend on filling those holes.

If they could trade Kirk for a 1st somehow and potentially move up to get the QB they want it would free up a ton a money.

I know this is a "weak" draft class according to many but it doesn't seem like our GM sees it that way:

New Vikings general manager Kwesi Adofo-Mensah isn't a fan of the "weak quarterback class" idea for this year's crop.

"It's funny, I just had a conversation with somebody about that," he said on Tuesday in Indianapolis. "I would probably go back and ask people what they thought about [Patrick] Mahomes and [Deshaun] Watson's class. I thought they said the same thing. You always want to be open minded."


One thing Adofo-Mensah pointed out is that the current scouting reports for QBs are far from definitive. Players can improve if they land in the right environment and get good coaching. We've seen that recently with players like Josh Allen and Justin Herbert who had major questions in the pre-draft process yet have developed into two of the best quarterbacks in the NFL.

"You're just guessing," he said. "You're predicting. We have information today and you watch a player and then you see in five years what they are like. Those things don't always line up. People come through, they improve their mechanics, they get different coaching, they get in different schemes that fit their skillsets. I'm not going to sit here and stamp that this isn't a great quarterback class because I see a lot of good stuff on film from these guys."

Vikings Leadership Pushes Back Against the Idea of a Weak 2022 Quarterback Draft Class

[J. Kapp 11]

It's uncanny how Kirk Cousins manages to get his teams to .500. Year after year. Probably why he's 59-59-2.

Pull Cousins off Washington during those years and tell me what they have..... I can tell you its a well below .500 team. Not sure what anyone expected him to do in Washington. Just like nobody expected Stafford to do anything in Detroit. Washington is arguably the biggest laughing stock of a franchise in the NFL.

Here’s the way I see it.

Never once have the Vikings gone into a game where I thought, “Kirk Cousins is the difference today.” Explain it however you want, but Kirk Cousins is exactly a .500 quarterback after 10 years.

I won’t apologize for wanting better.

[StumpHunter]

Does an extra 10-15 million and 2-3 decent players make this team “dangerous”? I really don’t think so, and the fact management has taken this approach for the last 3 years with no success I’d say all the evidence points to them being more than just a few good players away from great.

Where are you pulling the extra 10-15 million from? Kirk is 45m against the cap in 2022 isn't he? A replacement QB is going to take up some of that, of course. If there's a rookie at pick #12 that you want that would be ideal really. That would be a 3m cap hit leaving something like 30-40m to spend on filling those holes.

If they could trade Kirk for a 1st somehow and potentially move up to get the QB they want it would free up a ton a money.

I know this is a "weak" draft class but it doesn't seem like our GM sees it that way:

New Vikings general manager Kwesi Adofo-Mensah isn't a fan of the "weak quarterback class" idea for this year's crop.

"It's funny, I just had a conversation with somebody about that," he said on Tuesday in Indianapolis. "I would probably go back and ask people what they thought about [Patrick] Mahomes and [Deshaun] Watson's class. I thought they said the same thing. You always want to be open minded."


One thing Adofo-Mensah pointed out is that the current scouting reports for QBs are far from definitive. Players can improve if they land in the right environment and get good coaching. We've seen that recently with players like Josh Allen and Justin Herbert who had major questions in the pre-draft process yet have developed into two of the best quarterbacks in the NFL.

"You're just guessing," he said. "You're predicting. We have information today and you watch a player and then you see in five years what they are like. Those things don't always line up. People come through, they improve their mechanics, they get different coaching, they get in different schemes that fit their skillsets. I'm not going to sit here and stamp that this isn't a great quarterback class because I see a lot of good stuff on film from these guys."

https://www.si.com/nfl/vikings/news/vik ... raft-class

Agree 100% with KAM on this one.

I have been watching a lot of games of the 2022 class of QBs, and I decided to go back and look at the #1 QB in 2017, Mitch Trubisky, to see how he compares. From a film standpoint, Willis, Pickett and Strong all have significantly better tape than Trubisky, the 3rd overall pick in what would end up being a very strong QB class.

Willis is a sure thing starter if the team that drafts him implements a similar offense to Baltimore's. He is a Jackson clone, except he throws it better in college than Lamar did. Unless he learns to be more of a pocket passer his career will be shortened in the pros and upside will be limited, but for a few years he will be great and is well worth a 1st round pick.

Pickett had by far the best tape of any of the QBs I watched. He just does everything well and fits that Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers mold of buying time with his legs to make throws on the run downfield. Prior to seeing his hand size I was all on board drafting him, but that hand size is an issue as is his 3 years prior to 2021. Still wouldn't mind taking him at 12, but I would be less excited now than I was before.

Strong is by far the biggest gamble in the draft. Watching him, he almost always got the ball out on time, has a huge arm and was incredibly accurate downfield, and reminded me a little of Peyton Manning with his style of play. Where I would worry with him is he absolutely sucks when pressured and struggled when forced to move out of the pocket. I think I saw maybe 2 completed passes over 5 yards from him on the run. He also forces throws he shouldn't because he believes too much in his arm. If his quick release translates to the pros that isn't an issue and he will be elite, just like it wasn't an issue for Brady, Manning and Brees, but if he struggles with the speed of the NFL and can't get that ball out quick, he won't be a good backup, let alone a good starter.

Guys I watched who I would not want are Desmond Ridder who is like Willis but much worse at everything, and Bailey Zappe. Zappe more because he never seemed to be challenged in any of the games I watched and throwing to open guys while not being pressured doesn't tell you a lot about a QB.

Corral is the next guy I want to take a look at, but my initial look was promising and again looked better than Trubisky's. I honestly have no idea what Pace was thinking there.

[allday1991]

Does an extra 10-15 million and 2-3 decent players make this team “dangerous”? I really don’t think so, and the fact management has taken this approach for the last 3 years with no success I’d say all the evidence points to them being more than just a few good players away from great.

Where are you pulling the extra 10-15 million from? Kirk is 45m against the cap in 2022 isn't he? A replacement QB is going to take up some of that, of course. If there's a rookie at pick #12 that you want that would be ideal really. That would be a 3m cap hit leaving something like 30-40m to spend on filling those holes.

If they could trade Kirk for a 1st somehow and potentially move up to get the QB they want it would free up a ton a money.

I know this is a "weak" draft class according to many but it doesn't seem like our GM sees it that way:

New Vikings general manager Kwesi Adofo-Mensah isn't a fan of the "weak quarterback class" idea for this year's crop.

"It's funny, I just had a conversation with somebody about that," he said on Tuesday in Indianapolis. "I would probably go back and ask people what they thought about [Patrick] Mahomes and [Deshaun] Watson's class. I thought they said the same thing. You always want to be open minded."


One thing Adofo-Mensah pointed out is that the current scouting reports for QBs are far from definitive. Players can improve if they land in the right environment and get good coaching. We've seen that recently with players like Josh Allen and Justin Herbert who had major questions in the pre-draft process yet have developed into two of the best quarterbacks in the NFL.

"You're just guessing," he said. "You're predicting. We have information today and you watch a player and then you see in five years what they are like. Those things don't always line up. People come through, they improve their mechanics, they get different coaching, they get in different schemes that fit their skillsets. I'm not going to sit here and stamp that this isn't a great quarterback class because I see a lot of good stuff on film from these guys."

Vikings Leadership Pushes Back Against the Idea of a Weak 2022 Quarterback Draft Class

I was assuming that being a good quarterback away on a cheaper contract was referring to a QB a tier or 2 lower than Cousins, So id assume that quarterback would be making 25-30 million, 10-15 million cheaper. If we could hit a "good" qb on a draft pick that's a no brainer. I agree with CAM and someone else has mentioned it, why not draft a QB ever year till you get a franchise guy?

[Texas Vike]

I guess this is the best place to post this.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a ... 0552744580

Very worthwhile listen, even though it seems to be a few days old (pre-Rodgers extension and RW to Broncos). These guys are well-informed and do an excellent job of critically analyzing what KAM and KOC have said about Cousins (and other large contracts that we may look to move on from) at the combine in Indy.

[Cliff]

I was assuming that being a good quarterback away on a cheaper contract was referring to a QB a tier or 2 lower than Cousins, So id assume that quarterback would be making 25-30 million, 10-15 million cheaper. If we could hit a "good" qb on a draft pick that's a no brainer. I agree with CAM and someone else has mentioned it, why not draft a QB ever year till you get a franchise guy?

I see, yeah, that makes sense. I think drafting a QB is basically the only way to do what the article is suggesting realistically. If they *can* trade Cousins, get a QB in the draft, and then plug a few holes with 40m instead of 20m they certainly seem more dangerous.

Of course, the QB has to actually pan out. It's not like Kirk has "panned out" though and it's even more unlikely he's going to with the team in it's current state.

[CharVike]

Pull Cousins off Washington during those years and tell me what they have..... I can tell you its a well below .500 team. Not sure what anyone expected him to do in Washington. Just like nobody expected Stafford to do anything in Detroit. Washington is arguably the biggest laughing stock of a franchise in the NFL.

Here’s the way I see it.

Never once have the Vikings gone into a game where I thought, “Kirk Cousins is the difference today.” Explain it however you want, but Kirk Cousins is exactly a .500 quarterback after 10 years.

I won’t apologize for wanting better.

Even for the 2nd Packer game last season. I thought it was a difference. We went from maybe to no chance.

[StumpHunter]

Here’s the way I see it.

Never once have the Vikings gone into a game where I thought, “Kirk Cousins is the difference today.” Explain it however you want, but Kirk Cousins is exactly a .500 quarterback after 10 years.

I won’t apologize for wanting better.

Even for the 2nd Packer game last season. I thought it was a difference. We went from maybe to no chance.

I think the idea is that if the Vikings moved on from Cousins, we wouldn't start Sean Mannion next season. Could be wrong though.

[CharVike]

Even for the 2nd Packer game last season. I thought it was a difference. We went from maybe to no chance.

I think the idea is that if the Vikings moved on from Cousins, we wouldn't start Sean Mannion next season. Could be wrong though.

Teddy? That sounds great. IMO I don't see them trading Cousins. If I were the new HC the last thing I would do is but all my eggs in a journeyman FA QB especially when our D is getting an overhaul. I would go in looking to score as much as possible and don't stop. Try to put the D into one dimensional mode and attack the QB. Hunter will be back and some young guys showed getting pressure. Of course what I want will be the complete opposite. We missed getting a QB last year again. It won't be this year unless we pick the kid from Pitt but he is far from Jones. Maybe the Wilf's told them to take your time. I doubt that. They want to sell tickets and the other stuff that goes with it. With no QB we won't compete and that was shown last year. Our team isn't good enough to compete with a stiff QB.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Pull Cousins off Washington during those years and tell me what they have..... I can tell you its a well below .500 team. Not sure what anyone expected him to do in Washington. Just like nobody expected Stafford to do anything in Detroit. Washington is arguably the biggest laughing stock of a franchise in the NFL.

Here’s the way I see it.

Never once have the Vikings gone into a game where I thought, “Kirk Cousins is the difference today.” Explain it however you want, but Kirk Cousins is exactly a .500 quarterback after 10 years.

I won’t apologize for wanting better.

So does Stafford get a pass? I mean sure, now but prior to this season?

[Pondering Her Percy]

The other years he had a great Oline, and great WRs who were in their primes getting coached by one of the best offensive minds in the modern era. That amounted to 17-15-1 and a single blowout loss in the WC round.

Ok, you keep telling yourself that the prime of a WRs career is 29-30 years old and that those WRs at that stage in their career were "great". So great that in 2015 they went for 777 and 528 yards on the year....wow greatness at it's finest. Hell they actually had a better year the following year. But you know what's weird, you're talking up the WRs but not the guy getting them the ball. Hmmm....

But either way, I'm not going down the road of your cherry picked stats. Spin it any way you want, the Redskins were a bad football team. No matter what you say, their roster was a BAD roster. Like you're fighting to find stats that they were simply average in just to create an argument. That's how desperate you are to point the finger at Kirk. You're literally trying to defend the Washington Redskins, the most dysfunctional organization in professional football. Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

[CharVike]

Here’s the way I see it.

Never once have the Vikings gone into a game where I thought, “Kirk Cousins is the difference today.” Explain it however you want, but Kirk Cousins is exactly a .500 quarterback after 10 years.

I won’t apologize for wanting better.

So does Stafford get a pass? I mean sure, now but prior to this season?

People don't understand football is a team game. They also don't understand the fact that they all want to make money. Cousins who some say don't care about winning but he turned down the Jets plus all the other opportunities to make money in the market to come here for less because we were a better team. Our former QBs go to teams not looking to win but to make money. They don't see that simple part. Keenum would go to any team that offers a contract. Even if the team sucks. Just looking for money not winning. But these guys all want to win. They never would have made it to the top of their career if they didn't.

[StumpHunter]

But either way, I'm not going down the road of your cherry picked stats.

Can you explain this one? How is how few points a defense gives up per drive a "cherry picked stat" when the discussion is around how easy it is for a QB to win with said defense? What better stat to is there and why is it better?