Vikings @ Lions post game

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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

808vikingsfan wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:45 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:37 pm Another set of holy sh!t stats.

The Minnesota Vikings have given up the 3rd fewest points in the first 28 minutes of first halves.

The Minnesota Vikings have given up the 7th fewest points in the 56 minutes outside of the final 2 minutes of each half.

If the Minnesota Vikings had scored the same number of points in the last 2 minutes of both halves as they’ve given up, they’d be 9-2-1 and the No. 1 seed in the NFC (because they would have beaten the Cardinals).

The ineptitude displayed at the end of FIRST halves has been historically bad. We’re giving up 6 points per game in the last 2 minutes — by far the worst in league history. How far is by far? The difference between the Vikings and the second-worst team in NFL history (the 2018 Bengals) is the same as the difference between the Bengals and the 40th worst team (2013 Cleveland Browns).

If Mike Zimmer isn’t embarrassed by this, then he’s numb to humanity.
any stats on the offense in the last 2 minutes of each half? Just curious. Other team can't score if the offense has the ball (unless there's a turnover of course).

Not trying to take the blame away from the defense. I think Barr is such a liability on this team. He's practically invisible.

The puzzling stat. Vikings are #2 in sacks and sacks allowed.
I mean Barr has only played 6 games this year. Not saying he is all world, but having him play makes a big difference especially in coverage. Last game showed just how bad our backup LBs cover. They were torched by TEs.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

CharVike wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:37 am
VikingLord wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:20 pm

I have been watching football for a long time, and I can't recall any offense actually mishandling a kneel down that was returned for a score. I suppose it could happen, but I also suppose that if your team is in a situation where they need something like that to happen in order to win, just calling the game is the more merciful way to end it.
Miracle at the Meadowlands wasn't a kneel down but it should have been. That all started with a snap that the QB didn't appear to get clean. The ball was fumbled and returned for a TD by the defense. The game was over.
Pisarcik mishandled the snap but he was also trying to hand the ball off to Larry Czonka. A QB takes a snap differently for a handoff than he does for a kneel-down. Also, running backs set up much closer to the LOS in the '70s than they do now, so QBs had to turn and hand off very quickly.

Watch it here.

As a result of this play, other NFL coaches immediately began instructing the quarterback to simply take the snap and kneel, rather than trying to run a normal running play. In other words, the Miracle at the Meadowlands STARTED the idea of kneeling down. It also prompted the now-common "victory formation."

Since then, no team in the 43 years to follow has ever lost the lead on a kneel-down. Games have been lost when teams DON'T choose to kneel down, but never on a kneel-down.

The weirdness, chaos and difficulty in clearing the field following the Minneapolis Miracle prompted the NFL to change the rule that if a game-winning TD is scored as time expires, an extra point isn't necessary.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:37 pm Another set of holy sh!t stats.

The Minnesota Vikings have given up the 3rd fewest points in the first 28 minutes of first halves.

The Minnesota Vikings have given up the 7th fewest points in the 56 minutes outside of the final 2 minutes of each half.

If the Minnesota Vikings had scored the same number of points in the last 2 minutes of both halves as they’ve given up, they’d be 9-2-1 and the No. 1 seed in the NFC (because they would have beaten the Cardinals).

The ineptitude displayed at the end of FIRST halves has been historically bad. We’re giving up 6 points per game in the last 2 minutes — by far the worst in league history. How far is by far? The difference between the Vikings and the second-worst team in NFL history (the 2018 Bengals) is the same as the difference between the Bengals and the 40th worst team (2013 Cleveland Browns).

If Mike Zimmer isn’t embarrassed by this, then he’s numb to humanity.
Was actually just about to post this same stat. Goes to show how pathetic Zimmer's coaching has been. Like I've said before, he coaches petrified of making the wrong call. Coaches not to lose, he doesnt coach to win. Especially against weaker teams. This is exactly why we're in a barn burner every week. Because he's incapable of just stepping on a teams throat and being aggressive from the start. Instead he coaches so risk-adverse. But then when he goes and plays Aaron Rodgers and Justin Herbert, he comes out and says he threw everything he could at them and we win. But when we play Jared Goff twice and Cooper Rush, we dont blitz hardly at all, call a very vanilla defense and put zero pressure on them. Also known as being scared of losing to a bad team.

This is why I dont think Spielman should go. Because if Zimmer wasnt this teams head coach and holding this team back, we're at worst an 8-4 team right now with an offensive minded, ballsy head coach. Someone that maximizes his players talent and steps on the throats of the garbage teams and takes care of business against teams like Arizona, Cincy, Baltimore, etc.

It's pathetic to watch anymore. You know what's coming as you sit there and watch TV. Every time a game is close at the end, we all say to ourselves "when is the choke coming?". If you dont, you arent a Vikings fan. You just feel it in the air. And I can 100% tell you that this year, it's not the QB doing the choking. He's the only reason Mike Zimmer still has a job.

But mark my words, they will beat Pitt tonight because it's the classic bounce back game for the Vikings and per usual, it will keep Zim around just a little bit longer. It's time to move on from this clown. He's washed.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:57 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:37 pm Another set of holy sh!t stats.

The Minnesota Vikings have given up the 3rd fewest points in the first 28 minutes of first halves.

The Minnesota Vikings have given up the 7th fewest points in the 56 minutes outside of the final 2 minutes of each half.

If the Minnesota Vikings had scored the same number of points in the last 2 minutes of both halves as they’ve given up, they’d be 9-2-1 and the No. 1 seed in the NFC (because they would have beaten the Cardinals).

The ineptitude displayed at the end of FIRST halves has been historically bad. We’re giving up 6 points per game in the last 2 minutes — by far the worst in league history. How far is by far? The difference between the Vikings and the second-worst team in NFL history (the 2018 Bengals) is the same as the difference between the Bengals and the 40th worst team (2013 Cleveland Browns).

If Mike Zimmer isn’t embarrassed by this, then he’s numb to humanity.
Was actually just about to post this same stat. Goes to show how pathetic Zimmer's coaching has been. Like I've said before, he coaches petrified of making the wrong call. Coaches not to lose, he doesnt coach to win. Especially against weaker teams. This is exactly why we're in a barn burner every week. Because he's incapable of just stepping on a teams throat and being aggressive from the start. Instead he coaches so risk-adverse. But then when he goes and plays Aaron Rodgers and Justin Herbert, he comes out and says he threw everything he could at them and we win. But when we play Jared Goff twice and Cooper Rush, we dont blitz hardly at all, call a very vanilla defense and put zero pressure on them. Also known as being scared of losing to a bad team.

This is why I dont think Spielman should go. Because if Zimmer wasnt this teams head coach and holding this team back, we're at worst an 8-4 team right now with an offensive minded, ballsy head coach. Someone that maximizes his players talent and steps on the throats of the garbage teams and takes care of business against teams like Arizona, Cincy, Baltimore, etc.

It's pathetic to watch anymore. You know what's coming as you sit there and watch TV. Every time a game is close at the end, we all say to ourselves "when is the choke coming?". If you dont, you arent a Vikings fan. You just feel it in the air. And I can 100% tell you that this year, it's not the QB doing the choking. He's the only reason Mike Zimmer still has a job.

But mark my words, they will beat Pitt tonight because it's the classic bounce back game for the Vikings and per usual, it will keep Zim around just a little bit longer. It's time to move on from this clown. He's washed.
Solid post. Here's where I disagree slightly. I think Spielman has to go, too.

Rick Spielman is supposed to provide not only quality starters, but he's also supposed to find good depth players. The Vikings have NO QUALITY DEPTH, and that was proven beyond a doubt last week at Detroit. Now whether that's the fault of Zimmer and his nepotism minions or Spielman, I don't know. But if Rick Spielman is kowtowing to Mike Zimmer on personnel issues, then he's weak and needs to go anyway.

The other mark against Spielman, in my opinion, is the big spending he's done on Cousins and other veterans. It's not that Cousins isn't playing well. It's that the Vikings are hamstrung by his salary taking up 20% of the cap, and that figure grows to nearly 25% next year. Perhaps even more egregious, however, are the contracts for guys like Barr and Harry, which are really hurting the team. The Dalvin Cook deal is not working out either ... everybody knows I was not in favor of that, so I'll leave it alone. But again, Rick is responsible for all of those contracts. In the age of the salary cap, you can't give thank-you contracts to guys who have played well in the past. You give deals to guys you believe are going to play at a high level in the future. That's what makes Bill Belichick so successful. He never pays for past performance. Rick Spielman does, and it's what makes him unsuccessful, in my opinion.

As for Cousins, that's going to be up to the new regime. However, you and I both know that new GMs/coaches usually want to start with "their own guy" at quarterback. Whether that means picking up a bridge QB until they can draft a stud, or whether they try to find their guy sooner, there's a good chance their guy won't be Kirk Cousins. I could be wrong, but that would be my suspicion.

However, that's not to say Cousins is trash. Far from it. Check out the thread "The perfect Kirk Cousins solution." In the last couple of days, I've made a case for about 7 teams that might be in the market for a guy like Kirk Cousins. Why do I believe there are teams that would make a play for a guy with such a big contract? Because like you, I feel he has value as a starter in the NFL, probably as a Tier 1b kind of guy ... not on the level of Mahomes, Rodgers, etc., but a guy who can thrive in the right system. I just presented, for example, Cleveland as a place that could be the right system for Cousins ... strong running game, stud O-line, plus a head coach in Kevin Stefanski who has led Cousins to success and believes in what he can do.

My preference would be to clean house of GM and coach, then let them decide about Cousins. One thing I'm confident about ... the Vikings will not make a playoff run that saves their jobs. I think the Wilfs have already decided what they're going to do. We'll see what happens.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

Post by Maelstrom88 »

Can someone explain to me how Woods earned unnecessary roughness on his his to Hockenson? It didn't look like helmet to helmet on gamepass. Looked like a well timed legal hit.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

Post by 808vikingsfan »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:52 am
808vikingsfan wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:45 pm

any stats on the offense in the last 2 minutes of each half? Just curious. Other team can't score if the offense has the ball (unless there's a turnover of course).

Not trying to take the blame away from the defense. I think Barr is such a liability on this team. He's practically invisible.

The puzzling stat. Vikings are #2 in sacks and sacks allowed.
Our offense has been outscored 67-16 in the last 2 minutes of the first halves of games.
Our offense has been outscored 36-31 in the last 2 minutes of the second halves of games.
In total, the Vikings have been outscored 103-47 in the final 2 minutes of both halves.

Pretty pathetic.
Someone posted on Reddit earlier
The Viking offense is 28th in the league with a 20% first down percentage in the last two min of either half. Their 8 punts in the last 2 min are the 2nd most in the NFL.

Since we're getting super into our team's performance in the last 2 min of either half [here's a link](https://stathead.com/tiny/F9FGz) to those stats. Everyone make a thread! We need to dig into this!


Let's take a look at the offense:




- 28th in first down percentage (20%)


- 2nd most punts in NFL (8)


- 20th in the league in points scored with (39, counting all TDs as 7 since it's not on the sheet)



Yeah offense! You suck in a normal way. Not the historical way the defense sucks!
Even tonight. If the offense could have not turned the ball over and then have to punt on their final 2 possessions, this game wouldn’t have been in question. It’s both the offense and the defense.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

Post by StumpHunter »

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/139-the- ... -90208428/

A little after the 13:30 minute mark Andre Patterson just rips into Dantzler.

If you don't want to listen, he talks about the 2 plays where the Lions dumped it off in the middle of the field and poor tackling allowing the Lions to get out of bounds. One of those plays was Dantzler missing a tackle, so it wasn't just the last play where Dantzler blew it.

As for the last play, he said he not only was supposed to not be lined up where he was to start out, he was 100% not supposed to backup and has been taught in practice all the time to force the fade on that play.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

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StumpHunter wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:14 am https://www.iheart.com/podcast/139-the- ... -90208428/

A little after the 13:30 minute mark Andre Patterson just rips into Dantzler.

If you don't want to listen, he talks about the 2 plays where the Lions dumped it off in the middle of the field and poor tackling allowing the Lions to get out of bounds. One of those plays was Dantzler missing a tackle, so it wasn't just the last play where Dantzler blew it.

As for the last play, he said he not only was supposed to not be lined up where he was to start out, he was 100% not supposed to backup and has been taught in practice all the time to force the fade on that play.
Good stuff. IMO this is as big of an indictment of Patterson (Zimmer) as it is of Dantzler.

If you've had success either coaching or teaching, you know that everyone involved is allowed to throw up their hands and simply say "these players suck" - EXCEPT FOR THE COACHES. Fans, commentators, players themselves - all have the luxury of saying the players suck. But the coaches get paid to keep grinding.

If your coaching style in game 12 or 13 is STILL leading to players lining up wrong, then it's very likely your coaching style, content or both. YOU NEED TO ADJUST as a coach if your players "do not get it".

I've been there many, many times. It always amazed me that I could explain something plain as day on a whiteboard, then go do it on the field a dozen times and some players would simply still get it wrong.

I finally came to the conclusion that the magic number of repetitions is 75. When we practiced something 75 times relatively successfully, I was pretty sure the players got it. If by number 25 or so we were still screwing it up, I knew the problem was me.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

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psjordan wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:48 am
StumpHunter wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:14 am https://www.iheart.com/podcast/139-the- ... -90208428/

A little after the 13:30 minute mark Andre Patterson just rips into Dantzler.

If you don't want to listen, he talks about the 2 plays where the Lions dumped it off in the middle of the field and poor tackling allowing the Lions to get out of bounds. One of those plays was Dantzler missing a tackle, so it wasn't just the last play where Dantzler blew it.

As for the last play, he said he not only was supposed to not be lined up where he was to start out, he was 100% not supposed to backup and has been taught in practice all the time to force the fade on that play.
Good stuff. IMO this is as big of an indictment of Patterson (Zimmer) as it is of Dantzler.

If you've had success either coaching or teaching, you know that everyone involved is allowed to throw up their hands and simply say "these players suck" - EXCEPT FOR THE COACHES. Fans, commentators, players themselves - all have the luxury of saying the players suck. But the coaches get paid to keep grinding.

If your coaching style in game 12 or 13 is STILL leading to players lining up wrong, then it's very likely your coaching style, content or both. YOU NEED TO ADJUST as a coach if your players "do not get it".

I've been there many, many times. It always amazed me that I could explain something plain as day on a whiteboard, then go do it on the field a dozen times and some players would simply still get it wrong.

I finally came to the conclusion that the magic number of repetitions is 75. When we practiced something 75 times relatively successfully, I was pretty sure the players got it. If by number 25 or so we were still screwing it up, I knew the problem was me.
In the coaching staff's defense, this is probably the reason they only play Dantzler if they have to. The lack of blitzing I put on the coaches, the player doing the opposite of what they are coached I put on the player.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

Post by psjordan »

StumpHunter wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:10 am
psjordan wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:48 am

Good stuff. IMO this is as big of an indictment of Patterson (Zimmer) as it is of Dantzler.

If you've had success either coaching or teaching, you know that everyone involved is allowed to throw up their hands and simply say "these players suck" - EXCEPT FOR THE COACHES. Fans, commentators, players themselves - all have the luxury of saying the players suck. But the coaches get paid to keep grinding.

If your coaching style in game 12 or 13 is STILL leading to players lining up wrong, then it's very likely your coaching style, content or both. YOU NEED TO ADJUST as a coach if your players "do not get it".

I've been there many, many times. It always amazed me that I could explain something plain as day on a whiteboard, then go do it on the field a dozen times and some players would simply still get it wrong.

I finally came to the conclusion that the magic number of repetitions is 75. When we practiced something 75 times relatively successfully, I was pretty sure the players got it. If by number 25 or so we were still screwing it up, I knew the problem was me.
In the coaching staff's defense, this is probably the reason they only play Dantzler if they have to. The lack of blitzing I put on the coaches, the player doing the opposite of what they are coached I put on the player.
Which is your perogative as a fan of course. You and I are not getting paid hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to make sure the players line up correctly though. I realize the player is culpable, I'm just of the opinion the coach is much more so.

Coaches in the first game can "put it on the player for lining up wrong" in closed door meetings. Not in game 12 or 13 they can't. It's literally why the coaches get paid.

Players can be dumb as a brick and eventually get unseated, cut or traded. While they are still on the team and playing, coach has to make sure it's right by any means possible.
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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

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Re: Vikings @ Lions post game

Post by Purple Reign »

Maelstrom88 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:44 pm Can someone explain to me how Woods earned unnecessary roughness on his his to Hockenson? It didn't look like helmet to helmet on gamepass. Looked like a well timed legal hit.
It doesn't have to be helmet to helmet. Any hit on a receiver in the head/neck area will get flagged. Just like the Pittsburgh defender was flagged for his hit on Osborn in the end zone the other night. Looked like a perfectly legal hit, used his shoulder and hit Osborn in the chest but still got flagged. When the defender was talking to the ref, the ref pointed at his neck indicating he thought the hit was too close to the neck area. Very subjective.