The Vikings Playoff Hunt Thread

[psjordan]

... the utter failure to address the interior OL effectively is a huge indictment of Spielman's philosophy for drafting at those positions...

I'm no Spielman apologist, and yes his job is to select the best players that fit what the team is trying to do. He is mediocre in most if not all GM departments IMO. I don't see any great overall grades in draft selections, trades or FA signings. In fact he's had a few spectacular failures for every "hit".

My questions revolve around the supposition that for instance our HC, OC and OL coach are all pounding the table for bigger OL but Rick just has no more f's to give and selects what he thinks is best? Or the entire coaching staff is demanding we take Mac Jones and Rick says "pound salt" and takes Darrisaw. Are any of those scenarios realistic in any way, shape or form?

Is it even reasonably possible that Rick selects OL, DB's and QB's where, how and when he wants to, and completely ignores what the coaching staff says they want? Lordy I give that a .0001% of being the actual case.

Would it be more reasonable to assume that the "Zimiaks" are carrying over GKubiak's running philosophy and tell Rick to get the smaller, faster, "athletic" OL?

Now, we can argue whether or not Rick is selecting the BEST zone blocking OL out there, but to chide him for not selecting DAL caliber roadgraders I think is an unrealistic view of how the front office works.

Just my opinion.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I disagree. This defense is going to continue to give up a lot of points with the lack of talent we have on that side of the ball due to injuries and poor drafting and at the end of the season Zimmer will have lost more games than he won and will have a bottom 10 defense to boot.

He will be the sacrificial lamb given up to save Spielman his job, and the team will go with an offensive minded head coach, who will fail because he has no talent on D and the offense doesn't have enough talent to win the shootouts required to win with a bottom ten defense.

At that point, Rick will also be fired, but not until after the 2022 season where the GM will have stolen a ton of cap from 2023 and 2024 in an attempt to save his job. This will make the next GM's job even harder, but too many fans don't want to accept the fact this team lacks talent because of the GM, is being coached by this coach because of the GM, and is in the cap situation next year because of this GM and there isn't a big enough push from the fanbase to fire Rick.

I blame Udoh for Cook's injury yesterday. Udoh, yet again, consistently gave up pressures and allowed penetration deep into the backfield. He was called for holding at least once and could have been called more than that as he just can't keep his pad level low enough to maintain leverage as an interior blocker. This has been happening all year, too, and after so many years the utter failure to address the interior OL effectively is a huge indictment of Spielman's philosophy for drafting at those positions. This whole "athletic" OL philosophy has been an utter failure for the most part. Bradbury can't hold up in the middle because he's not substantial enough, Mason Cole isn't much better, Cleveland struggles for much of the same reason at LG, Udoh is a right tackle playing RG and is way too tall to effectively man the position they have him playing, O'Neill is their best OL at RT and yet even he is marginal for the most part, and Darrisaw might be the answer at LT although he hasn't been on the field long enough to tell. His backup Hill is a disaster as a starter. Maybe as a backup he's serviceable but even there I think it could be better.

Overall, the "zone blocking" OL approach has been an utter failure by any measure IMHO. Maybe if the Vikings had the "right" OL at every spot to play that effectively it could work, but it's pretty clear they don't and even if they did, it seems like pretty much everything has to go right with that approach for it to be effective game-in and game-out.

The "old school" style of bigger, more powerful and substantial OL might not be as flashy, but man, when you need the hard yards or you need to wear down a smaller, more aggressive DL, that is the ticket every time. Obviously, the bigger guys up front still need to be able to move their feet and hands effectively, so you can't just go on pure size, but where the rubber meets the road you can't beat having five Mack trucks up front.

Udoh directly cost Cook on that play. No way around it. Spielman cost the team by not finding a suitable RG during the offseason and forcing the Vikes to use Udoh at that position.

Spielman needs to go. He's had way more time than most GMs to field a competitive team. This team, despite it's penchant for churning out a lot of moral victories despite adversity, is not a truly competitive team, at least not in the sense that it is competitive for Superbowls. It is, as currently constructed, at best competitive for making the wildcard round. That shouldn't be acceptable for the Wilfs at this point. Spielman has had more than enough time to get this team where it needs to be, and he's failed by any objective measure.

Gotta disagree here. Where are you getting O'Neill being "marginal" from? Sorry but that just doesnt make any sense. He's definitely a very above average right tackle. I honestly dont think the OL has been nearly as bad this year as it has in the past. Udoh sucks even though he started the year off well. I mean I've spoken about the stupidity of them playing tackles at guard.

But you say "Spielman failed to find a suitable guard" in the offseason. I think that's false, we just have a stubborn coach that downright refuses to play rookies until he absolutely has to. I mean the fact that it took him 2 games to play Justin Jefferson who is arguably a top 3 WR in the NFL says enough even though there are plenty of other circumstances that show this. Spielman drafted the Big 10 offensive lineman of the year in Wyatt Davis in the 3rd round. A TRUE guard. In the first two preseason games, Wyatt Davis was the #1 ranked rookie offensive lineman in the entire NFL with a grade of 90.2. NUMBER ONE. And he's sitting the pine and doesnt even go in when Udoh goes down. Blake Brandel did.

Zimmer sets and substitutes his roster exactly like he coaches. Risk-averse. Scared of making a mistake. Scared of costing the team. Scared of getting fired. Conservative, conservative, conservative. Nobody can sit there and tell me that both Udoh who's getting at least one holding penalty a game and Blake Brandel (who is also a former tackle) are better than Wyatt Davis right now. There isnt a man on the planet that can convince me of that right now. But instead we will kill any confidence Davis has by letting him rot on the bench while we start a bum out of position.

Trey Smith, (who I was obsessed with in the pre draft process) didnt go until the 6th round due to medical. Was a projected 3rd rounder leading up to the draft. Trey Smith is currently starting for the Chiefs as a 6th rounder and playing some very solid football. He won the starting job day 1 for the Chiefs. Yet our BIG 10 OL OF THE YEAR cant see the field after having a very strong preseason? HUH? HOW? WHY?

Blame Rick Spielman all you want but the reason us fans are so frustrated with this team is because we know how talented we are but are underachieving. Well that talent we know we have comes from one man. Rick Spielman. The underachieving comes from the guy that doesnt know how to utilize the talent he is handed, especially offensively. That's Mike Zimmer.

[StumpHunter]

But you say "Spielman failed to find a suitable guard" in the offseason. I think that's false, we just have a stubborn coach that downright refuses to play rookies until he absolutely has to.

How do you explain Darrisaw getting to play as soon as he was ready off of his injury?

I mean the fact that it took him 2 games to play Justin Jefferson who is arguably a top 3 WR in the NFL says enough

This is a lie. JJ ran as many routes in those first two games as the starter did. He played a significant amount in both those games.

Spielman drafted the Big 10 offensive lineman of the year in Wyatt Davis in the 3rd round. A TRUE guard. In the first two preseason games, Wyatt Davis was the #1 ranked rookie offensive lineman in the entire NFL with a grade of 90.2. NUMBER ONE. And he's sitting the pine and doesnt even go in when Udoh goes down. Blake Brandel did.

Doing good in preseason is better than doing poorly, but it still means little. The 2nd highest rated qualifying Olineman in the preseason was Greg Senat and he sits on the Colts practice squad currently. It is great that you fall in love with all of these draft picks simply because the Vikings pick them, but how often do these guys you are pounding the table for them to start halfway through the season, actually work out?

Trey Smith, (who I was obsessed with in the pre draft process) didnt go until the 6th round due to medical. Was a projected 3rd rounder leading up to the draft. Trey Smith is currently starting for the Chiefs as a 6th rounder and playing some very solid football. He won the starting job day 1 for the Chiefs. Yet our BIG 10 OL OF THE YEAR cant see the field after having a very strong preseason? HUH? HOW? WHY?

Probably because he isn't playing at an NFL level yet. Just like Lynch wasn't very good last year. And Samia the year before. And so on, and so on.

Blame Rick Spielman all you want but the reason us fans are so frustrated with this team is because we know how talented we are but are underachieving. Well that talent we know we have comes from one man. Rick Spielman. The underachieving comes from the guy that doesnt know how to utilize the talent he is handed, especially offensively. That's Mike Zimmer.

This team has some talent no doubt, but not enough. The D started 4 backup level guys on the defensive line the last game, the secondary is starting 3 bargain bin castoff free agents, and the QB is not a SB caliber QB. It is a borderline playoff team talentwise that will end the season a borderline playoff team. Maybe with Hunter and Griffen we could have won a playoff game or two since a great pass rush can completely change games, but with those two out we do not have a secondary that is good enough to hold up to QBs having an extra second or two to make a play.

That isn't excusing Zimmer either. It is his fault the D is in the position it is in and his time here has run its course. It is also Rick's fault though, and it is Rick's fault the team has no cap space to make it better in 2022.

[VikingLord]

Now, we can argue whether or not Rick is selecting the BEST zone blocking OL out there, but to chide him for not selecting DAL caliber roadgraders I think is an unrealistic view of how the front office works.

I probably worded my criticism on that point poorly as I don't think Rick is just doing whatever he wants. He's definitely working with the coaches and a general idea of what he wants to achieve.

But I think that the general idea is what is flawed, and I also think it's the job of the GM to determine if the outcomes of that idea are producing the desired results, and if not, start moving in another direction.

How long has Spielman been putting together this OL? Is it any better now than it was in 2017, or I don't even know how far back we'd have to go for the last truly competent OL the Vikings had.

If the approach isn't working, the GM has to step up and be willing to challenge or change it. If the coaches resist that for some reason, he's got to be willing to make the move(s) necessary to get the overall team back on the right track.

[psjordan]

But I think that the general idea is what is flawed

Yep, no arguments there whatsoever.

... and I also think it's the job of the GM to determine if the outcomes of that idea are producing the desired results, and if not, start moving in another direction ... If the approach isn't working, the GM has to step up and be willing to challenge or change it. If the coaches resist that for some reason, he's got to be willing to make the move(s) necessary to get the overall team back on the right track.

It's just from my perspective, there is a lot of assumptions about the power Rick yields. He and Zim each report directly to Mark Wilf. Does Rick have the power to fire Zim? I have no idea, but with the genesis being the "triangle of authority" my assumption is no way he has that power. I could be wrong. If the Wilfs want to fire Zim, they may make Rick do it, but I can't envision him walking into Mark's office and saying "I'm firing Zim, where do you want to go for lunch?".

I've seen posters claim Rick hired Zim, Rick hired all asst coaches, etc. Rick may have led the search committee for Zim, and maybe even asst coaches, but I 100% cannot imagine he had/has the power to hire and fire all coaches. Recommend? Sure. Full authority? I just don't see it.

As an aside, I think Rick, Zim, Zim's model girlfriend, cousins of the Kubiaks and the janitor's daughter all know our attempts at building an OL have been futile. That is the amazingly infuriating part of it all. There is no way in carnation they haven't discussed their methodology being a fail.

But all of your original points stand. The org is flawed beyond redemption. I sure hope once the house cleaning begins, it brings a more traditional GM-over-HC power structure.

[VikingLord]

Gotta disagree here. Where are you getting O'Neill being "marginal" from? Sorry but that just doesnt make any sense. He's definitely a very above average right tackle. I honestly dont think the OL has been nearly as bad this year as it has in the past. Udoh sucks even though he started the year off well. I mean I've spoken about the stupidity of them playing tackles at guard.

Maybe "marginal" is a little harsh. He's done pretty well overall, and he's not a weak link on the line, but he's not a dominant player at the position either. When he was drafted he dropped well into the late 2nd IIRC, and when Spielman took him it seemed like more of a reach based on need given there had been a run on top-tier OL to that point in the draft. That isn't a knock on O'Neill, but nobody can tell me Rick Spielman went into that draft coveting O'Neill or that O'Neill was even great value where the Vikings got him. My main criticism of Spielman and the Vikings (that they have struggled to build a competent OL despite many years to do so and knowing they have invested massive dollars in a QB who requires a competent OL to maximize what he can do) still stands despite the O'Neill pick largely working out.

But you say "Spielman failed to find a suitable guard" in the offseason. I think that's false, we just have a stubborn coach that downright refuses to play rookies until he absolutely has to. I mean the fact that it took him 2 games to play Justin Jefferson who is arguably a top 3 WR in the NFL says enough even though there are plenty of other circumstances that show this. Spielman drafted the Big 10 offensive lineman of the year in Wyatt Davis in the 3rd round. A TRUE guard. In the first two preseason games, Wyatt Davis was the #1 ranked rookie offensive lineman in the entire NFL with a grade of 90.2. NUMBER ONE. And he's sitting the pine and doesnt even go in when Udoh goes down. Blake Brandel did.

Hard to say if Wyatt Davis is a suitable guard given he hasn't seen the field yet. It's true he was a guard in college and a highly regarded prospect for the most part, and to be honest I was thrilled when the Vikings drafted him as I figured much the same as you that the Vikings had found their guard of the future. I don't know why he hasn't seen the field yet. That could be on the coaches, or it could be that he just isn't the best guy (yet?) to put in there. Zimmer needs to win games. I can't imagine he's sitting on a better option at this point just because he's got a different guy who has more experience.

The other indictment of the team's approach is who the starting guards are. Ezra Cleveland played tackle in college and is physically built to be a tackle in the pros, while the same is true of Udoh. And yet there they are, playing positions more out of necessity than anything else it seems.

And the most amazing part of this is, as OL positions go, the guard positions are generally the easiest to draft. It is rare that OGs come out that truly stand out relative to their peers. They are rarely drafted in the first round, and many very good ones are drafted in the middle rounds and even start as rookies after being drafted in the middle rounds. As you noted, the Vikings did draft Davis last year, and he seems to fit that mold, but he's not starting. He's not contributing and nobody knows why. Could be Zimmer I suppose, but could be something else specific to him too.

Whatever the explanation, here we sit heading into December with the same OL concerns the Vikings have had for what seems like forever. That can't just be bad luck anymore. I wish I knew what the answer was but it seems obvious what the answer isn't - the current draft evaluation and player development process for OL does not know what it is doing. It is just not competent.

Trey Smith, (who I was obsessed with in the pre draft process) didnt go until the 6th round due to medical. Was a projected 3rd rounder leading up to the draft. Trey Smith is currently starting for the Chiefs as a 6th rounder and playing some very solid football. He won the starting job day 1 for the Chiefs. Yet our BIG 10 OL OF THE YEAR cant see the field after having a very strong preseason? HUH? HOW? WHY?

Smith is *exactly* the kind of OG who gets drafted in those mid rounds and thrives. Vikings missed him.

Maybe Davis is just as good or better and the Vikings refuse to put him on the field. I doubt that is the case but I can't prove it. Still, it doesn't seem logical or rational that Zimmer would sit a more talented player for a less talented player at this point in his career. His job is on the line. His team needs to win and I don't think he can afford to try to prove he or Spielman was right about Udoh if Davis could make a difference.

Personally, I'd like to see what Davis can do even if it's just a drive or two. I find it hard to believe he could be worse than Udoh.

Blame Rick Spielman all you want but the reason us fans are so frustrated with this team is because we know how talented we are but are underachieving. Well that talent we know we have comes from one man. Rick Spielman. The underachieving comes from the guy that doesnt know how to utilize the talent he is handed, especially offensively. That's Mike Zimmer.

I'm not so convinced the team is all that talented. I think that is highly subjective when talking about this team.

I also think Zimmer, Spielman and Cousins are tightly linked at this point, like the legs of a 3-legged stool. If one leg goes, the chair falls and all go. I think that is what is going to happen at the end of this season.

[Pondering Her Percy]

But you say "Spielman failed to find a suitable guard" in the offseason. I think that's false, we just have a stubborn coach that downright refuses to play rookies until he absolutely has to.

How do you explain Darrisaw getting to play as soon as he was ready off of his injury?

I mean the fact that it took him 2 games to play Justin Jefferson who is arguably a top 3 WR in the NFL says enough

This is a lie. JJ ran as many routes in those first two games as the starter did. He played a significant amount in both those games.

Spielman drafted the Big 10 offensive lineman of the year in Wyatt Davis in the 3rd round. A TRUE guard. In the first two preseason games, Wyatt Davis was the #1 ranked rookie offensive lineman in the entire NFL with a grade of 90.2. NUMBER ONE. And he's sitting the pine and doesnt even go in when Udoh goes down. Blake Brandel did.

Doing good in preseason is better than doing poorly, but it still means little. The 2nd highest rated qualifying Olineman in the preseason was Greg Senat and he sits on the Colts practice squad currently. It is great that you fall in love with all of these draft picks simply because the Vikings pick them, but how often do these guys you are pounding the table for them to start halfway through the season, actually work out?

Trey Smith, (who I was obsessed with in the pre draft process) didnt go until the 6th round due to medical. Was a projected 3rd rounder leading up to the draft. Trey Smith is currently starting for the Chiefs as a 6th rounder and playing some very solid football. He won the starting job day 1 for the Chiefs. Yet our BIG 10 OL OF THE YEAR cant see the field after having a very strong preseason? HUH? HOW? WHY?

Probably because he isn't playing at an NFL level yet. Just like Lynch wasn't very good last year. And Samia the year before. And so on, and so on.

Blame Rick Spielman all you want but the reason us fans are so frustrated with this team is because we know how talented we are but are underachieving. Well that talent we know we have comes from one man. Rick Spielman. The underachieving comes from the guy that doesnt know how to utilize the talent he is handed, especially offensively. That's Mike Zimmer.

This team has some talent no doubt, but not enough. The D started 4 backup level guys on the defensive line the last game, the secondary is starting 3 bargain bin castoff free agents, and the QB is not a SB caliber QB. It is a borderline playoff team talentwise that will end the season a borderline playoff team. Maybe with Hunter and Griffen we could have won a playoff game or two since a great pass rush can completely change games, but with those two out we do not have a secondary that is good enough to hold up to QBs having an extra second or two to make a play.

That isn't excusing Zimmer either. It is his fault the D is in the position it is in and his time here has run its course. It is also Rick's fault though, and it is Rick's fault the team has no cap space to make it better in 2022.

Wasnt talking to you nor do I have any care in the world what you have to say

[StumpHunter]

Wasnt talking to you nor do I have any care in the world what you have to say

Maybe you should just stick with private messages then, if you want avoid reading specific responses to your post. Or just put me on ignore.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Maybe "marginal" is a little harsh. He's done pretty well overall, and he's not a weak link on the line, but he's not a dominant player at the position either. When he was drafted he dropped well into the late 2nd IIRC, and when Spielman took him it seemed like more of a reach based on need given there had been a run on top-tier OL to that point in the draft. That isn't a knock on O'Neill, but nobody can tell me Rick Spielman went into that draft coveting O'Neill or that O'Neill was even great value where the Vikings got him. My main criticism of Spielman and the Vikings (that they have struggled to build a competent OL despite many years to do so and knowing they have invested massive dollars in a QB who requires a competent OL to maximize what he can do) still stands despite the O'Neill pick largely working out.

Marginal is definitely harsh. There is no doubt he is a top 5-7 RT in the league. So whatever you may call that....above average, good, great, elite, not sure. But that's what he is.

As for Spielman, this is exactly what fans that tend to disapprove of Spielman generally say. That he "didnt highly covet O'Neill" or he "just took a chance on Diggs and got lucky" or that "Hunter was just a flier pick that panned out" or that he "never scouted Thielen and got lucky because he was a Minnesota kid", and so on. They rip his bad picks and then make excuses and put their own narrative behind his good picks.

Has Spielman had draft and free agency mistakes, of course. But when you look at the team overall and look at the amount of talent on this roster, I would say they no doubt have a top 10 team in pure talent across the board. That is the upper third of the league. And if you dont believe that is the case I'd like to hear 10 rosters that have more talent on them than the Vikings do. HE built this roster, drafted and signed these players. Nobody else. Are there holes? Yes but show me a roster that doesnt have any? We could be the Rams and have no future draft picks and holes all over their defense. We could be a bottom feeder team with no future.

We all get so frustrated with this team because we know in our minds that they have the talent but tend to underachieve. But dissect that statement a little bit. We HAVE the talent to be better than we are. The talent is Spielmans job. If he's doing his job (for the most part) there is no reason he should be let go. Look at the Cowboys over the past however many years. Nobody questioned their talent from an overall team standpoint but always questioned Jason Garrett and rightfully so. The Vikings fall right under the Cowboys category. The Cowboys should not be underachieving with the talent they have on their roster and they constantly do (and are trending toward that direction with McCarthy as well). This is much more of a coaching problem than it is a GM problem. If your GM is constantly making dumb decisions and you have next to no talent on your roster than okay. But that sure isnt the case here.

Hard to say if Wyatt Davis is a suitable guard given he hasn't seen the field yet. It's true he was a guard in college and a highly regarded prospect for the most part, and to be honest I was thrilled when the Vikings drafted him as I figured much the same as you that the Vikings had found their guard of the future. I don't know why he hasn't seen the field yet. That could be on the coaches, or it could be that he just isn't the best guy (yet?) to put in there. Zimmer needs to win games. I can't imagine he's sitting on a better option at this point just because he's got a different guy who has more experience.

The other indictment of the team's approach is who the starting guards are. Ezra Cleveland played tackle in college and is physically built to be a tackle in the pros, while the same is true of Udoh. And yet there they are, playing positions more out of necessity than anything else it seems.

And the most amazing part of this is, as OL positions go, the guard positions are generally the easiest to draft. It is rare that OGs come out that truly stand out relative to their peers. They are rarely drafted in the first round, and many very good ones are drafted in the middle rounds and even start as rookies after being drafted in the middle rounds. As you noted, the Vikings did draft Davis last year, and he seems to fit that mold, but he's not starting. He's not contributing and nobody knows why. Could be Zimmer I suppose, but could be something else specific to him too.

Whatever the explanation, here we sit heading into December with the same OL concerns the Vikings have had for what seems like forever. That can't just be bad luck anymore. I wish I knew what the answer was but it seems obvious what the answer isn't - the current draft evaluation and player development process for OL does not know what it is doing. It is just not competent.

Again I dont have near the concerns with this OL like I did prior. Darrisaw looks like a very promising LT. ONeill is as solid as they come. Even Cleveland, who I didnt agree with at LG is starting to play a lot better. To the point where this past week against SF, Cleveland had the highest offensive grade of any player in the entire NFL. Mason Cole looks decent but dont think he is a long term fix. The black sheep this year seems to be Udoh. Who actually started the year solid but is just CONSTANTLY causing us holding penalty after holding penalty. Also the one that go Dalvin hurt.

Smith is *exactly* the kind of OG who gets drafted in those mid rounds and thrives. Vikings missed him.

Maybe Davis is just as good or better and the Vikings refuse to put him on the field. I doubt that is the case but I can't prove it. Still, it doesn't seem logical or rational that Zimmer would sit a more talented player for a less talented player at this point in his career. His job is on the line. His team needs to win and I don't think he can afford to try to prove he or Spielman was right about Udoh if Davis could make a difference.

Personally, I'd like to see what Davis can do even if it's just a drive or two. I find it hard to believe he could be worse than Udoh.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. When you have Udoh who is playing downright horrible right now, what do you have to lose by starting Davis? It would be EXTREMELY hard for Davis to play worse than Udoh currently is. But this is Zimmer and I've said it time and time again. He adjusts his lineup like he manages a game, risk adverse. He's so petrified to make the wrong decision that will cost them the game. Similar to me always saying he coaches not to lose, he doesnt coach to win. No less I get this vibe that he doesnt want to turn any players against him and is too worried about hurting feelings.

2018- ONeill vs Hill.....Brian O'Neill on the bench the first 4 games with Rashod Hill starting. It took Hill to get injured for him to plug ONeill in. ONeill proceeded to allowing zero sacks for nearly 2 seasons. Are you telling me somehow ONeill wasnt ready week 1 that year but was all of the sudden ready week 4? Or are you going to tell me that a guy that went on to allow 0 sacks in 2 years somehow worse than Rashod Hill entering week 1.

2020- Justin Jefferson vs. Bisi Johnson. I dont care what anyone else says regarding who technically got more pass play snaps, Bisi Johnson outsnapped JJ 75-65 in the first two games of 2020. And if anyone recalls, we had zero pass game rhythm those two games and Cousins was force feeding Thielen. So again, is anyone going to tell me that JJ (who broke records and was a top WR in the NFL in the 14 games he started) was somehow not ready week 1, but ready week 3 to the point where he goes off for 160 yards and a TD vs Tennessee?

2020- Ezra vs. Dru. In 2020 Dru Samia was (literally) the worst graded offensive player in the entire NFL by mid year. He was an absolute revolving door. We put Cleveland in and he immediately made our OL look better simply because Samia made it look so bad. And IIRC, that was also when we went on that mid-year winning streak last year. But it somehow took a Dru Samia wrist injury to get Cleveland into the lineup.

2021- Wyatt vs. Udoh. Udoh has given up multiple pressures, has had multiple holding penalties and even got Dalvin hurt because of his poor blocking. Davis was the Big 10 offensive lineman a year, a TRUE guard not a makeshift one, and was the highest graded rookie lineman in the preseason. There is zero reason they shouldnt at least give Davis a couple drives, especially against a team like Detroit. But they wont because they are too worried a change like that will somehow cost them this game. The fact that Blake Brandel (another former tackle) got in over Davis when Udoh went down for a brief period is an absolute joke.

I'd even go to bat for guys like Patrick Jones who is also a 3rd round pick, notable pass rusher in college but they are playing Eddie Yarborough over him who they just brought up from the practice squad. Playing guys like Shamar Stephen, Jaleel Johnson and Jalyn Holmes over guys like Watts and Lynch. There has just been so many situations over the years with Zimmer.

They did it back with Thielen and Treadwell and maybe since that one worked out, he's hell bent on continuing to do it. Who knows. I'm just sick of watching it. Play your best players. I'm sorry but guys like Oli Udoh, Dru Samia, Shamar Stephen, Bisi Johnson, Jaleel Johnson, Rashod Hill, Jalyn Holmes and so on were/are not your best players at the position and that is obvious to anyone that watches football. That is the epitome of wasting talent and underachieving with the roster you have.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Wasnt talking to you nor do I have any care in the world what you have to say

Maybe you should just stick with private messages then, if you want avoid reading specific responses to your post. Or just put me on ignore.

Also dont need you telling me what I should and shouldn't do. Again, I dont care what you think and wasnt talking to you. Carry on

[StumpHunter]

Again, I dont care what you think

Clearly.

[VikingLord]

We all get so frustrated with this team because we know in our minds that they have the talent but tend to underachieve. But dissect that statement a little bit. We HAVE the talent to be better than we are. The talent is Spielmans job.

I don't think Zimmer is absent from the talent evaluation process. In the end the talent is Spielman's job I suppose, but I doubt he's operating without substantial input from Zimmer, or without some coordination between the types of players being drafted and how Zimmer wants to structure his team.

If Spielman gets credit for his draft and FA hits, Zimmer probably deserves some part of that credit as well.

If your GM is constantly making dumb decisions and you have next to no talent on your roster than okay. But that sure isnt the case here.

I think we're just going to have to disagree on that part. Spielman has most certainly made some highly questionable decisions, if not outright dumb ones over the years. In my view he's as inconsistent in the talent acquisition process as Zimmer is in the coaching and on-field decisions process.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. When you have Udoh who is playing downright horrible right now, what do you have to lose by starting Davis? It would be EXTREMELY hard for Davis to play worse than Udoh currently is. But this is Zimmer and I've said it time and time again. He adjusts his lineup like he manages a game, risk adverse. He's so petrified to make the wrong decision that will cost them the game.

I think another possible explanation is he drafted and developed Udoh and when he watches his film he believes Udoh's issues are correctable with more coaching.

Spielman won't get a pass if this season ends up subpar. He's been a constant on the team longer than Zimmer and Cousins. The Wilfs can't look at that history to this point and really believe that Spielman has done a bang-up job as GM across all those seasons given the results.