Vikings Message Board.Com

Rhodes Closed wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:52 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:23 pm

Not really.

You know which QB actually did make the playoffs with a defense as bad as ours though? Ryan Tannehill. His defense gave up 2.67 points per drive, ours 2.68. 40 yards per driver compared to our 37.

He did have a great RB to rely on though, something Kirk didn't have...nm.

And here you have not a damn clue what you are even talking about.

He's trying to be funny and cut down Cousins while doing it. He's a broken record and spin doctor.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:28 am

Rhodes Closed wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:52 pm

And here you have not a damn clue what you are even talking about.

He's trying to be funny and cut down Cousins while doing it. He's a broken record and spin doctor.

You're doing it again. "Spin doctor" and "broken record" are attacking the poster. Stop it. I'm sick of it. Challenge the substance all you want but please for the love of all things good stop!

Thaumaturgist wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:54 am

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:28 am
He's trying to be funny and cut down Cousins while doing it. He's a broken record and spin doctor.

You're doing it again. "Spin doctor" and "broken record" are attacking the poster. Stop it. I'm sick of it. Challenge the substance all you want but please for the love of all things good stop!

IMO there is no substance to any of his posts regarding Cousins, but I suppose Spin Doctor and Broken Record are name calling. Sorry.

I think today’s game was a good example of why you need to look past the stats. Cousins stats today were alright but he really didn’t do much, good or bad, that your average NFL QB couldn’t do. His first TD was a 5-yard out to a wide open Thielen who toasted Apple. The 2nd was a 5 yard slant with Thielen YAC’ing the last 20 yards. Same with Jefferson’s long catch, that last 20 yards were all Jefferson.

He was checking down half the game (Cook was the leading receiver most of the first half), couldn’t move the ball in the 2 minute drill before the half with 3 TOs, two stalled drives in OT. His 4th quarter two minute drill was bailed out by Joseph and a 53 yard FG.

His best throw was probably the throw to Conklin over the middle at the end of the 4th. Contrast that to Burrow who was placing the ball all over the place and pushing it downfield. Granted, Burrow dropped off towards the end but he clearly wasn’t 100% after the Hunter hit.

To be fair, the OL did Cousins absolutely no favors. So I’m not saying it was Cousins fault we lost today because it wasn’t but you want to see more out of a guy making $35M-$45M a year. He’s not a top 10 QB, he’s probably top 15, which is fine if you’re not paying the guy top 5 money. He’s not a playmaker, he’s not a guy that elevates play. He takes what is there and if it’s not, he’s going to check it down. Sometimes you need to make something out of nothing, that’s what good QBs do.

S197 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:04 pm I think today’s game was a good example of why you need to look past the stats. Cousins stats today were alright but he really didn’t do much, good or bad, that your average NFL QB couldn’t do. His first TD was a 5-yard out to a wide open Thielen who toasted Apple. The 2nd was a 5 yard slant with Thielen YAC’ing the last 20 yards. Same with Jefferson’s long catch, that last 20 yards were all Jefferson.

He was checking down half the game (Cook was the leading receiver most of the first half), couldn’t move the ball in the 2 minute drill before the half with 3 TOs, two stalled drives in OT. His 4th quarter two minute drill was bailed out by Joseph and a 53 yard FG.

His best throw was probably the throw to Conklin over the middle at the end of the 4th. Contrast that to Burrow who was placing the ball all over the place and pushing it downfield. Granted, Burrow dropped off towards the end but he clearly wasn’t 100% after the Hunter hit.

To be fair, the OL did Cousins absolutely no favors. So I’m not saying it was Cousins fault we lost today because it wasn’t but you want to see more out of a guy making $35M-$45M a year. He’s not a top 10 QB, he’s probably top 15, which is fine if you’re not paying the guy top 5 money. He’s not a playmaker, he’s not a guy that elevates play. He takes what is there and if it’s not, he’s going to check it down. Sometimes you need to make something out of nothing, that’s what good QBs do.

He was a net 0 today. Not the reason we lost, not the reason we won and he could have been if he had just made a few more plays and been just a little better in the pocket.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:16 pm

S197 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:04 pm I think today’s game was a good example of why you need to look past the stats. Cousins stats today were alright but he really didn’t do much, good or bad, that your average NFL QB couldn’t do. His first TD was a 5-yard out to a wide open Thielen who toasted Apple. The 2nd was a 5 yard slant with Thielen YAC’ing the last 20 yards. Same with Jefferson’s long catch, that last 20 yards were all Jefferson.

He was checking down half the game (Cook was the leading receiver most of the first half), couldn’t move the ball in the 2 minute drill before the half with 3 TOs, two stalled drives in OT. His 4th quarter two minute drill was bailed out by Joseph and a 53 yard FG.

His best throw was probably the throw to Conklin over the middle at the end of the 4th. Contrast that to Burrow who was placing the ball all over the place and pushing it downfield. Granted, Burrow dropped off towards the end but he clearly wasn’t 100% after the Hunter hit.

To be fair, the OL did Cousins absolutely no favors. So I’m not saying it was Cousins fault we lost today because it wasn’t but you want to see more out of a guy making $35M-$45M a year. He’s not a top 10 QB, he’s probably top 15, which is fine if you’re not paying the guy top 5 money. He’s not a playmaker, he’s not a guy that elevates play. He takes what is there and if it’s not, he’s going to check it down. Sometimes you need to make something out of nothing, that’s what good QBs do.

He was a net 0 today. Not the reason we lost, not the reason we won and he could have been if he had just made a few more plays and been just a little better in the pocket.

I agree with both of you. Cousins wasn't the reason they lost, but I too felt had he been a little more aggressive he could have been the reason they won. I kept wondering when the Vikings were going to take a deep shot ala what Burrows did to Young to end the half. Just one attempt even.

S197 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:04 pm I think today’s game was a good example of why you need to look past the stats. Cousins stats today were alright but he really didn’t do much, good or bad, that your average NFL QB couldn’t do. His first TD was a 5-yard out to a wide open Thielen who toasted Apple. The 2nd was a 5 yard slant with Thielen YAC’ing the last 20 yards. Same with Jefferson’s long catch, that last 20 yards were all Jefferson.

He was checking down half the game (Cook was the leading receiver most of the first half), couldn’t move the ball in the 2 minute drill before the half with 3 TOs, two stalled drives in OT. His 4th quarter two minute drill was bailed out by Joseph and a 53 yard FG.

His best throw was probably the throw to Conklin over the middle at the end of the 4th. Contrast that to Burrow who was placing the ball all over the place and pushing it downfield. Granted, Burrow dropped off towards the end but he clearly wasn’t 100% after the Hunter hit.

To be fair, the OL did Cousins absolutely no favors. So I’m not saying it was Cousins fault we lost today because it wasn’t but you want to see more out of a guy making $35M-$45M a year. He’s not a top 10 QB, he’s probably top 15, which is fine if you’re not paying the guy top 5 money. He’s not a playmaker, he’s not a guy that elevates play. He takes what is there and if it’s not, he’s going to check it down. Sometimes you need to make something out of nothing, that’s what good QBs do.

How many QBs are there that can elevate the play of his players. Cousins never was that. It's not like he took the Skins to the playoffs every year and marched them to the champ game. The Lions are paying a guy as much as Cousins and I don't think he can elevate that team to the playoffs. He has a great W/L lifetime record because he played on a very good team. Wentz is paid like him. Will he elevate the Colts? They are already a playoff team. Dak is paid more will his team challenge for the Super Bowl? It's only one game but from what I saw the two areas that Speilman focused on to fix didn't do much either. This secondary is a sive. The kid Burrow carved them alive. Completed 75% and averaged over 9 yards an attempt. He was under big time pressure and did this. Burrow will get knocked out eventually playing behind that line. Speilman fixed the OL. Zimmer even said he wasn't concerned. Cook averaged 3 yards a pop against that team. Our fixed OL sucked. Cousins did his usual. We had 7 1st half points. That don't cut it. Cousins isn't going to improve to a HOF level player. What's the next step? Speilman has nothing behind him. He's been here for years now and has nothing at the QB behind his FA signing. He might have no choice but to extend Cousins. That's a bad GM in action.

CharVike wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:11 pm The Lions are paying a guy as much as Cousins and I don't think he can elevate that team to the playoffs. He has a great W/L lifetime record because he played on a very good team. Wentz is paid like him. Will he elevate the Colts?

Wentz and Goff were traded because the teams that gave them those contracts realized they made a mistake. Are you finally coming to the same conclusion?

CharVike wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:11 pm

S197 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:04 pm I think today’s game was a good example of why you need to look past the stats. Cousins stats today were alright but he really didn’t do much, good or bad, that your average NFL QB couldn’t do. His first TD was a 5-yard out to a wide open Thielen who toasted Apple. The 2nd was a 5 yard slant with Thielen YAC’ing the last 20 yards. Same with Jefferson’s long catch, that last 20 yards were all Jefferson.

He was checking down half the game (Cook was the leading receiver most of the first half), couldn’t move the ball in the 2 minute drill before the half with 3 TOs, two stalled drives in OT. His 4th quarter two minute drill was bailed out by Joseph and a 53 yard FG.

His best throw was probably the throw to Conklin over the middle at the end of the 4th. Contrast that to Burrow who was placing the ball all over the place and pushing it downfield. Granted, Burrow dropped off towards the end but he clearly wasn’t 100% after the Hunter hit.

To be fair, the OL did Cousins absolutely no favors. So I’m not saying it was Cousins fault we lost today because it wasn’t but you want to see more out of a guy making $35M-$45M a year. He’s not a top 10 QB, he’s probably top 15, which is fine if you’re not paying the guy top 5 money. He’s not a playmaker, he’s not a guy that elevates play. He takes what is there and if it’s not, he’s going to check it down. Sometimes you need to make something out of nothing, that’s what good QBs do.

How many QBs are there that can elevate the play of his players. Cousins never was that. It's not like he took the Skins to the playoffs every year and marched them to the champ game. The Lions are paying a guy as much as Cousins and I don't think he can elevate that team to the playoffs. He has a great W/L lifetime record because he played on a very good team. Wentz is paid like him. Will he elevate the Colts? They are already a playoff team. Dak is paid more will his team challenge for the Super Bowl? It's only one game but from what I saw the two areas that Speilman focused on to fix didn't do much either. This secondary is a sive. The kid Burrow carved them alive. Completed 75% and averaged over 9 yards an attempt. He was under big time pressure and did this. Burrow will get knocked out eventually playing behind that line. Speilman fixed the OL. Zimmer even said he wasn't concerned. Cook averaged 3 yards a pop against that team. Our fixed OL sucked. Cousins did his usual. We had 7 1st half points. That don't cut it. Cousins isn't going to improve to a HOF level player. What's the next step? Speilman has nothing behind him. He's been here for years now and has nothing at the QB behind his FA signing. He might have no choice but to extend Cousins. That's a bad GM in action.

I think the proper question should be, how many QB's that will make $45 million can elevate the play of his teammates. I'm not sure why you think Goff and Wentz are making as much as Cousins because they're not. Goff is making about $30 million a year with his last two years having no guaranteed salary. They can walk away with minimal cap hit (his signing bonus, $10M & $5M hits). Wentz won't even make $30 million and also has zero guaranteed salary his last two years. They can also cut him with no cap hit. Kirk Cousins banked $45 million guaranteed BEFORE this season even started for NEXT year. The contracts are nowhere near comparable. Not to mention, this is an extension coming off an unprecedented fully guaranteed, no trade, 3-year double dip contract.

I think Dak is the guy you can draw comparisons and I think Dak is a much better QB. Just look at how he played against that Tampa Defense. He's decisive with his throws and it's not like he had all day to throw the ball. There was a lot of pressure on him, often times a rusher coming clean off the edge. He was able to engineer a late 4th quarter comeback against one of the best defenses in the league. We're not talking about the Bengals defense here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mzj9sVTVjnU

Not all QB's need to bring the same thing to a team. But you have to bring something extra, you can't be a guy who throws a nice ball when you have a clean pocket and five seconds to throw. That doesn't happen often in the NFL. You need to be able to feel the pocket, or make plays with your legs, or be the field general. Cousins is never going to be a mobile QB but that means he needs to take command of the field. Gronk was talking about the Dallas game and how Brady checked him into a run block, then checked again into a block and release. On the same play. The guy sees everything. Peyton Manning, same thing. You don't have to be a Pat Mahomes or Russell Wilson style QB but for $45 million you have to bring a lot more than what he brings. The best audible of the night goes to Burrow on 4th down to win the game. I honestly can't even remember Cousins calling an audible. Can you? I recall one play where the Bengals were showing pressure in the A-gap and it looked like he made some sort of protection change. Pressure came up the middle and he took the sack.

Like I said, I don't think Cousins lost us the game and the OL really let him down. But I don't think he did anything particularly special to win it either. And that's sort've par for the course with him. He has a handful of games he plays really well, a handful he plays very poorly and most where he's lukewarm. That's the definition of average and we're paying a lot of money for lukewarm.

S197 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:42 pm Like I said, I don't think Cousins lost us the game and the OL really let him down. But I don't think he did anything particularly special to win it either. And that's sort've par for the course with him. He has a handful of games he plays really well, a handful he plays very poorly and most where he's lukewarm. That's the definition of average and we're paying a lot of money for lukewarm.

Cousins missed on a few opportunities, but for the most part he played the way he always plays. He is pure money on 3rd-and-5-or-less, much less effective on 3rd-and-5-or-more, shows little anticipation, hesitates to throw down the field unless he's in "hype" mode which he can go into for stretches and where he is very effective throwing deeper routes, and generally displays a "play-not-to-lose" conservative attitude rather than a "show-me-you-can-stop-me" attitude.

At this point in his career, none of that is going to change.

Cousins isn't objectively good or bad in terms of outcome. I still believe a team can win with a QB like Cousins, even win it all. But if a team is going to win, much less win it all, that team has to be much better than the team that currently surrounds Cousins.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:24 pm

S197 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:42 pm Like I said, I don't think Cousins lost us the game and the OL really let him down. But I don't think he did anything particularly special to win it either. And that's sort've par for the course with him. He has a handful of games he plays really well, a handful he plays very poorly and most where he's lukewarm. That's the definition of average and we're paying a lot of money for lukewarm.

Cousins missed on a few opportunities, but for the most part he played the way he always plays. He is pure money on 3rd-and-5-or-less, much less effective on 3rd-and-5-or-more, shows little anticipation, hesitates to throw down the field unless he's in "hype" mode which he can go into for stretches and where he is very effective throwing deeper routes, and generally displays a "play-not-to-lose" conservative attitude rather than a "show-me-you-can-stop-me" attitude.

At this point in his career, none of that is going to change.

Cousins isn't objectively good or bad in terms of outcome. I still believe a team can win with a QB like Cousins, even win it all. But if a team is going to win, much less win it all, that team has to be much better than the team that currently surrounds Cousins.

This is a good way to put it. And here is where you have to wonder what is going on with management/coaching. How is it you have Kirk Cousins and don't realize that to get to the things he does well, you need to have a top tier OL? If Kirk is your guy, build around him. He's not going to throw to guys UNTIL they are open. He's not going to step up in the pocket or keep his composure under pressure. NEVER GONNA HAPPEN. It's not who he is. He's probably not the best guy to build around given his shortcoming are profound, but you've got to make your team match with the reality your QB is presenting, or move on to another QB. It's some kind of insanity to keep re-signing the guy and surrounding him with weapons he can't make use of on way too high a percentage of downs.

I think we as fans overthink this too much. As long as our o-line continues to be awful, a guy like Kirk isn't good enough. If Kirk played for the Cowboys he'd likely look better than he does with us. If we had Mahomes, he'd likely be able to mask our abysmal line play. As it stands, we have an immobile qb behind an atrocious offensive line; thus both are going to look terrible.

Not a fun spot to be.

vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:33 pm I think we as fans overthink this too much. As long as our o-line continues to be awful, a guy like Kirk isn't good enough. If Kirk played for the Cowboys he'd likely look better than he does with us. If we had Mahomes, he'd likely be able to mask our abysmal line play. As it stands, we have an immobile qb behind an atrocious offensive line; thus both are going to look terrible.

Not a fun spot to be.

I think that's part of the frustration with current roster that this front office and coaching staff have built. QB they signed needs time. OL they have built needs qb to read quick and throw.

vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:33 pm I think we as fans overthink this too much. As long as our o-line continues to be awful, a guy like Kirk isn't good enough. If Kirk played for the Cowboys he'd likely look better than he does with us. If we had Mahomes, he'd likely be able to mask our abysmal line play. As it stands, we have an immobile qb behind an atrocious offensive line; thus both are going to look terrible.

Not a fun spot to be.

This is true, but I think it is a point worth emphasizing that Kirk is both immobile and doesn't throw until he sees guys open. You could mitigate the OL struggles if either one of those things weren't the case.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:39 pm

vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:33 pm I think we as fans overthink this too much. As long as our o-line continues to be awful, a guy like Kirk isn't good enough. If Kirk played for the Cowboys he'd likely look better than he does with us. If we had Mahomes, he'd likely be able to mask our abysmal line play. As it stands, we have an immobile qb behind an atrocious offensive line; thus both are going to look terrible.

Not a fun spot to be.

This is true, but I think it is a point worth emphasizing that Kirk is both immobile and doesn't throw until he sees guys open. You could mitigate the OL struggles if either one of those things weren't the case.

Totally agree. The two obviously need each other VERY much to be successful. Our line has been bad as long as I can remember. Hence why the Cousins signing was odd to me. And the money we paid him was shocking.