Championship Roster

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

StumpHunter
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3587
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 623

Re: Championship Roster

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:44 pm

So that right there says about all there is to say about the relative value of stats. Stump posts stats that suggest Cousins is not a QB who can get the team far into the playoffs, while Spielman and Zimmer must believe the opposite. Since it is almost impossible for them to be looking at different data points, then either one of them is objectively wrong in their interpretation of that data, or, more likely, one (or both, I suppose) is cherry-picking the stats that support their conclusions.

What makes you think Spielman believes Cousins, at this point, can win him a SB? I think he did when he signed him originally, after all he said he was brought in to win the be the difference in winning it all. In that he was already proven wrong.

The extension though? That was to save his job and nothing more. Extending Cousins validated the original signing, not extending him made the original signing look like a bad decision. What else was he going to do? It was a move to buy some time, and the attempt to trade up for Fields was the move to cement his future.
CharVike
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 524

Re: Championship Roster

Post by CharVike »

In other news.... Michael Pierce suffered a calf injury and it's doubtful he'll be available when the Vikings begin practice in late July.
DT Michael Pierce suffered a calf injury while training and his availability for the start of camp is in doubt, source said. While he could end up missing time to begin camp, it’s not expected to keep him off the field to begin the season.

— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) July 19, 2021
I'm sure Zim will say it's a tweak and at that point say bye bye for the season.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 670

Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:44 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:09 am
I looked at Stump's post just this once because I was almost certain he was going to have a perfect example of what I was saying and I was right. People can always find stats to support their predisposed beliefs. This renders any discussion based on stats virtually useless. Stump will of course believe that his stats are better than other stats and others will believe their stats are better than Stump's stats. On and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.
Stats can be useful in an objective discussion where everyone involved is open to letting the evidence lead to the truth and where the relative weaknesses of that evidence are acknowledged.

There is evidence behind the stats that Stump posts, and those stats can have value in assessing Cousins as a player and his relative value at his position, both in the league overall and with the Vikings in particular.

It is also very likely that stats are the basis for Spielman and Zimmer signing Cousins in the first place, as well as extending him further.

So that right there says about all there is to say about the relative value of stats. Stump posts stats that suggest Cousins is not a QB who can get the team far into the playoffs, while Spielman and Zimmer must believe the opposite. Since it is almost impossible for them to be looking at different data points, then either one of them is objectively wrong in their interpretation of that data, or, more likely, one (or both, I suppose) is cherry-picking the stats that support their conclusions.

Of course, in terms of outcomes, there will be no debate. Stump isn't wrong per se, and he may in fact turn out right if the Vikings continue to under-perform in big games against better opposition with Cousins at the helm. Its just difficult to say with certainty until Cousins time with the Vikings has run its course.

Spielman and Zimmer have a lot more personally riding on the interpretation of those stats. I sincerely hope for the sake of both that they are not the ones introducing personal bias into their interpretations of them, because if they are both are likely to be out of a job at the end of this season.
Stump only looks at the stats that support his stance. I don't know what kind of living one can earn Cherry Picking, but it seems like his full time job. He throws out any positive stat regarding our QB as garbage. Sure I have bias like anyone, but I at least try to discuss things in good faith and I don't believe he ever does. That is why I have him on ignore and have worked hard on resisting temptation to look at his posts. If he wasn't a broken record regurgitating every negative iota he can find regarding Cousins I would be happy to discuss with him in good faith, but I'd rather not see any of his negativity even if there's a grain of truth in it. I don't need his negativity in my life.

I'm certain that Cousins could potentially lead us to multiple NFL titles. Will he? That will depend on other factors than just himself. The cool thing for me is I can never be proven wrong :lol: . On the other hand I believe that Stump has said that Cousins could never win a Super Bowl and that is a fact as no single player has ever won a Super Bowl, but taken in context I think he means The Vikings team can't win one with Cousins as our QB and that can easily be proven wrong and i expect it to be proven wrong. Go Vikings.
:rock: :govikes: :v): :smilevike: :beerock: :banana: :appl:
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 670

Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingsVictorious »

CharVike wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:08 pm In other news.... Michael Pierce suffered a calf injury and it's doubtful he'll be available when the Vikings begin practice in late July.
DT Michael Pierce suffered a calf injury while training and his availability for the start of camp is in doubt, source said. While he could end up missing time to begin camp, it’s not expected to keep him off the field to begin the season.

— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) July 19, 2021
I'm sure Zim will say it's a tweak and at that point say bye bye for the season.
I'm a fan of Michael Pierce, but I was always concerned with him being an injury risk. He doesn't have a big injury history, but it's a vibe I get. I hope my vibe is full of :hitfan:
User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7749
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 746

Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:11 pm
VikingLord wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:44 pm

So that right there says about all there is to say about the relative value of stats. Stump posts stats that suggest Cousins is not a QB who can get the team far into the playoffs, while Spielman and Zimmer must believe the opposite. Since it is almost impossible for them to be looking at different data points, then either one of them is objectively wrong in their interpretation of that data, or, more likely, one (or both, I suppose) is cherry-picking the stats that support their conclusions.

What makes you think Spielman believes Cousins, at this point, can win him a SB? I think he did when he signed him originally, after all he said he was brought in to win the be the difference in winning it all. In that he was already proven wrong.

The extension though? That was to save his job and nothing more. Extending Cousins validated the original signing, not extending him made the original signing look like a bad decision. What else was he going to do? It was a move to buy some time, and the attempt to trade up for Fields was the move to cement his future.
How does the extension save his job?

I think you're speculating on the rationale for the extension. That doesn't mean you're wrong about it, but based on Spielman's public statements he seems pretty convinced that Cousins can get the job done at QB.
CharVike
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 524

Re: Championship Roster

Post by CharVike »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:15 pm
CharVike wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:08 pm In other news.... Michael Pierce suffered a calf injury and it's doubtful he'll be available when the Vikings begin practice in late July.
DT Michael Pierce suffered a calf injury while training and his availability for the start of camp is in doubt, source said. While he could end up missing time to begin camp, it’s not expected to keep him off the field to begin the season.

— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) July 19, 2021
I'm sure Zim will say it's a tweak and at that point say bye bye for the season.
I'm a fan of Michael Pierce, but I was always concerned with him being an injury risk. He doesn't have a big injury history, but it's a vibe I get. I hope my vibe is full of :hitfan:
The guy should be able to help us I don't doubt that. He's a huge person and we needed a player that could take up space and hold the point. Hopefully he plays well for us. He's in his prime which is also a positive. Calf injury doesn't really tell much.
User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7749
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 746

Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingLord »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:01 pm I'm certain that Cousins could potentially lead us to multiple NFL titles. Will he? That will depend on other factors than just himself. The cool thing for me is I can never be proven wrong :lol: . On the other hand I believe that Stump has said that Cousins could never win a Super Bowl and that is a fact as no single player has ever won a Super Bowl, but taken in context I think he means The Vikings team can't win one with Cousins as our QB and that can easily be proven wrong and i expect it to be proven wrong. Go Vikings.
:rock: :govikes: :v): :smilevike: :beerock: :banana: :appl:
I agree with you. Put a good enough team around Cousins and he'll win.

At the most basic level I want to go into a season with some hope and optimism. The team can always dash that later, but for now at least, why not think about the best possible outcome to the season?

Also, I've watched football long enough to know there are no sure things. Everything can be lined up for the Vikings or any other team and it can all go south in the blink of an eye. One minute Favre is driving the team to a last second 4th quarter field goal to get the Vikings into their 5th Superbowl, while the next Tracy Porter is running back a pick off a cross-body throw that was necessary because the Vikings had 12 men on the field (on offense, nonetheless...). Or a field goal kicker who hadn't missed the entire year misses the one field goal he couldn't afford to miss. At home. With another Superbowl appearance on the line.

So yeah, Cousins could be the Devil himself come to torment us Vikings fans by finding yet another improbable way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but given what's already happened, I'm just not that convinced he's going to be the reason they don't make it if they don't make it. Given the history of this team, he might just be the unexpected, unheralded player who is the reason they do make it.

:smilevike: :thumbsup: :govikes:
StumpHunter
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3587
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 623

Re: Championship Roster

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:19 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:11 pm

What makes you think Spielman believes Cousins, at this point, can win him a SB? I think he did when he signed him originally, after all he said he was brought in to win the be the difference in winning it all. In that he was already proven wrong.

The extension though? That was to save his job and nothing more. Extending Cousins validated the original signing, not extending him made the original signing look like a bad decision. What else was he going to do? It was a move to buy some time, and the attempt to trade up for Fields was the move to cement his future.
How does the extension save his job?

I think you're speculating on the rationale for the extension. That doesn't mean you're wrong about it, but based on Spielman's public statements he seems pretty convinced that Cousins can get the job done at QB.
I explained why the extension was to keep his job. Giving an extension makes the original signing look better than letting Cousins walk in FAs does.

The public statements Rick has made are why I don't believe he thinks Cousins is the answer anymore. His has stated that the Vikings goal is now to "make the playoffs" when in 2018 it was to take the next step and win the SB. Remain employed with a 10 win season versus try to build to a championship team.

I also wonder what kind of statement trying to draft Justin Fields makes?
User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 7749
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 746

Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:11 am I explained why the extension was to keep his job. Giving an extension makes the original signing look better than letting Cousins walk in FAs does.
That's just speculation. As I said, you could be right that Spielman put his pride above winning, but more than likely he extended Cousins with the guarantees he did because he felt Cousins could get the job done.
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:11 am I also wonder what kind of statement trying to draft Justin Fields makes?
He didn't try hard enough apparently.

If Spielman felt that strongly about Fields, and given how critical having a franchise QB is and how Spielman has already demonstrated his willingness to overpay if necessary to get production at the position, I'd think if that was a serious effort on the part of Spielman, Fields would be a Viking right now.

Fields looked more like the next Cam Newton than the next Patrick Mahomes to me. We'll see how it all turns out, but I would have been disappointed if Spielman traded the house for Fields. I like what he ended up doing much better, at least based on what we know right now.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 670

Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:30 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:01 pm I'm certain that Cousins could potentially lead us to multiple NFL titles. Will he? That will depend on other factors than just himself. The cool thing for me is I can never be proven wrong :lol: . On the other hand I believe that Stump has said that Cousins could never win a Super Bowl and that is a fact as no single player has ever won a Super Bowl, but taken in context I think he means The Vikings team can't win one with Cousins as our QB and that can easily be proven wrong and i expect it to be proven wrong. Go Vikings.
:rock: :govikes: :v): :smilevike: :beerock: :banana: :appl:
I agree with you. Put a good enough team around Cousins and he'll win.

At the most basic level I want to go into a season with some hope and optimism. The team can always dash that later, but for now at least, why not think about the best possible outcome to the season?

Also, I've watched football long enough to know there are no sure things. Everything can be lined up for the Vikings or any other team and it can all go south in the blink of an eye. One minute Favre is driving the team to a last second 4th quarter field goal to get the Vikings into their 5th Superbowl, while the next Tracy Porter is running back a pick off a cross-body throw that was necessary because the Vikings had 12 men on the field (on offense, nonetheless...). Or a field goal kicker who hadn't missed the entire year misses the one field goal he couldn't afford to miss. At home. With another Superbowl appearance on the line.

So yeah, Cousins could be the Devil himself come to torment us Vikings fans by finding yet another improbable way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but given what's already happened, I'm just not that convinced he's going to be the reason they don't make it if they don't make it. Given the history of this team, he might just be the unexpected, unheralded player who is the reason they do make it.

:smilevike: :thumbsup: :govikes:
Great post and it happens to have Stump posting right after it. I'm not going to look. I'm confident it would make me sick to my stomach to look at what he has to say. There is so much reason for optimism regarding this years Vikings. I have enough negativity in my life and I don't need Stump adding any more.
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 670

Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingsVictorious »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:54 am
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:11 am I explained why the extension was to keep his job. Giving an extension makes the original signing look better than letting Cousins walk in FAs does.
That's just speculation. As I said, you could be right that Spielman put his pride above winning, but more than likely he extended Cousins with the guarantees he did because he felt Cousins could get the job done.
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:11 am I also wonder what kind of statement trying to draft Justin Fields makes?
He didn't try hard enough apparently.

If Spielman felt that strongly about Fields, and given how critical having a franchise QB is and how Spielman has already demonstrated his willingness to overpay if necessary to get production at the position, I'd think if that was a serious effort on the part of Spielman, Fields would be a Viking right now.

Fields looked more like the next Cam Newton than the next Patrick Mahomes to me. We'll see how it all turns out, but I would have been disappointed if Spielman traded the house for Fields. I like what he ended up doing much better, at least based on what we know right now.
Clearly the Vikings interest in Fields was mild. If it had of been high we would have made the trade and drafted him. Like you I'm very glad we didn't.
StumpHunter
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3587
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 623

Re: Championship Roster

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingLord wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:54 am
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:11 am I explained why the extension was to keep his job. Giving an extension makes the original signing look better than letting Cousins walk in FAs does.
That's just speculation. As I said, you could be right that Spielman put his pride above winning, but more than likely he extended Cousins with the guarantees he did because he felt Cousins could get the job done.
Everything is just speculation. I wonder why you think Rick only went with 2 years for Cousins instead of the typical 4 or 5 on the extension if he thinks Cousins could get the job done?
VikingLord wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:54 am
StumpHunter wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:11 am I also wonder what kind of statement trying to draft Justin Fields makes?
He didn't try hard enough apparently.

If Spielman felt that strongly about Fields, and given how critical having a franchise QB is and how Spielman has already demonstrated his willingness to overpay if necessary to get production at the position, I'd think if that was a serious effort on the part of Spielman, Fields would be a Viking right now.

Fields looked more like the next Cam Newton than the next Patrick Mahomes to me. We'll see how it all turns out, but I would have been disappointed if Spielman traded the house for Fields. I like what he ended up doing much better, at least based on what we know right now.
I agree, he didn't try hard enough if Fields is the next Cam Newton, a QB much better in his prime than Cousins will ever be. Lets hope Fields isn't that good or the next 5 or 6 seasons are going to be rough. It is the Bears though, so my guess is he will be more like 2021 Cam than the 2015 one.

And now I wait for a certain someone to say Cam was never any good. Only because he doesn't like running QBs though, no other reason. :whistle:
Fat Stupid Loser
Starter
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:36 am
x 53

Re: Championship Roster

Post by Fat Stupid Loser »

StumpHunter wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:42 pm
Rhodes Closed wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:14 pm

Tbf, this stat I brought up was in response to the idea that Kirk Cousins does nothing but pad stats.
The quote was, "pad his stats against bad defenses", which your stat doesn't refute.

You got to be careful with Dusty stats. Cousins is indeed tied for 6th most TDs in that spot, but he also is one of only 6 QBs to start 78+ games during that time period. He is essentially 6th of 6. Yay.
Or 6 of 32. YAY!!!
User avatar
VikingsVictorious
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 670

Re: Championship Roster

Post by VikingsVictorious »

Fat Stupid Loser wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:31 pm
StumpHunter wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:42 pm

The quote was, "pad his stats against bad defenses", which your stat doesn't refute.

You got to be careful with Dusty stats. Cousins is indeed tied for 6th most TDs in that spot, but he also is one of only 6 QBs to start 78+ games during that time period. He is essentially 6th of 6. Yay.
Or 6 of 32. YAY!!!
Yeah let's fault Cousins for not getting injured enough :lol: :lol: .
Cousins would sure be good if he only got injured more often. :wallbang:
You can't make this stuff up.
StumpHunter
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3587
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 623

Re: Championship Roster

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingsVictorious wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:03 pm
Fat Stupid Loser wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:31 pm

Or 6 of 32. YAY!!!
Yeah let's fault Cousins for not getting injured enough :lol: :lol: .
Cousins would sure be good if he only got injured more often. :wallbang:
You can't make this stuff up.
Very little of it had to do with injuries. There are only 10 starting QBs left in the NFL who were starting in 2016. Nice strawman though.