Vikings Message Board.Com

There is a bunch of talent on the DL. What is happening that is making them so ineffectual? Yes, they stepped in up in the second half, after being completely absent in the first. But the only pressure I see is if the opposing OL has a breakdown, or if they get coverage help. There is just no fear in opposing QBs, they are able to operate at will. This seems to be the most frightening problem to me this season so far. This is a group that is loaded with talent... and they are sorely underperforming. Is it coaching? Schemes? Why?

I refuse to believe that the OL that paved the way for AD last season is somehow worse this season. They have the same guys back, and OL play demands consistency. And Loadholt still struggling? Sorry, but I refuse to believe he cannot be coached up. This is another part of teh team that has me very disappointed. And honestly, I have to look to coaching on this. Kalil struggling with technique? Was he struggling in preseason, too? He seems to be solidifying, but why did it get that far?

If these two units played up to last season's standard, this team is a contender. As it is, well... 0-3.

My theory is the DL isn't as bad as it seems. Our secondary isn't capable of covering anyone for more than 1.5 seconds and that's mostly due to this cover 0 scheme and Jefferson. I think opposing offensive coordinators lick their chops when they watch the film on our D. Their receivers setup camp in our wide open zones and it's just pitch n catch all day. Every QB is over 300 against us so far (Cutler 290). We don't appear to have a LB that can cover the middle of the field either so that's open all day as well. Opposing QB's just don't need to hold onto the ball all that long, so our DL has no time to get there. Compare it to Ponder, he holds the ball way too long.

Our OL is by no means good right now, but they're getting more blame than they deserve. In the WCO you're supposed to get rid of the ball quickly not be indecisive and hang onto it as long as Ponder does.

Reignman wrote:
Our OL is by no means good right now, but they're getting more blame than they deserve. In the WCO you're supposed to get rid of the ball quickly not be indecisive and hang onto it as long as Ponder does.

I disagree. I think they deserve more blame, TBH. They aren't picking up blitzes, they are whiffing embarrassingly often, they are getting caught out of position. They have been getting schooled this season and they have been getting off relatively easy in the media and with fans. But I do not believe it is a lack of talent. I am seriously questioning the coaching of both units.

BGM wrote:There is a bunch of talent on the DL. What is happening that is making them so ineffectual? Yes, they stepped in up in the second half, after being completely absent in the first. But the only pressure I see is if the opposing OL has a breakdown, or if they get coverage help. There is just no fear in opposing QBs, they are able to operate at will. This seems to be the most frightening problem to me this season so far. This is a group that is loaded with talent... and they are sorely underperforming. Is it coaching? Schemes? Why?

I refuse to believe that the OL that paved the way for AD last season is somehow worse this season. They have the same guys back, and OL play demands consistency. And Loadholt still struggling? Sorry, but I refuse to believe he cannot be coached up.

I have no problem believing it. I wish I did but he's big, strong and s-l-o-w. He's been vulnerable to a quick pass rush for his entire career.

This is another part of teh team that has me very disappointed. And honestly, I have to look to coaching on this. Kalil struggling with technique? Was he struggling in preseason, too? He seems to be solidifying, but why did it get that far?

Yes, he struggled in preseason too.

The DL is a conundrum. Some of the problem has been QBs getting the ball out quickly but today, I didn't think that was as evident. Like most of the team, they just aren't making enough plays.

BGM wrote:I disagree. I think they deserve more blame, TBH. They aren't picking up blitzes, they are whiffing embarrassingly often, they are getting caught out of position. They have been getting schooled this season and they have been getting off relatively easy in the media and with fans. But I do not believe it is a lack of talent. I am seriously questioning the coaching of both units.

I think talent is definitely part of the problem. As I mentioned, Loadholt has always been questionable in pass protection. Kalil's performance this year is a bit of a mystery and may speak to a coaching problem as you suggested but it could also be that opponents now have a year of film on him and are figuring out where he's most vulnerable. The interior of the line definitely has talent issues and I include Sullivan in that. He's a good center but he's a bit of an overachiever and just like Loadholt has a history of struggling against outside speed, Sullivan has a history of getting pushed around by powerful interior linemen.

I think o-line play has as much to do with the Vikings 0-3 start as any other aspect of the team, including QB play.

Mothman wrote:

I have no problem believing it. I wish I did but he's big, strong and s-l-o-w. He's been vulnerable to a quick pass rush for his entire career.]

The lines generally seem slow -- both lines. It can happen when you have aging personnel, but I can't diagnose the causes here, just the symptoms.

Purplemania wrote:I look at Loadholt and I do wonder if it's the coaching staff. Mount McKinnie was a glob of lump and utterly horrible his last year with us, yet now that he is with the Ravens he is all of the sudden playing like a Pro again. I think it's a combination of motivation and scheme. These Oline guys have a mean streak too, let's allow them to be vicious sometimes and push around defenders. McKinnie seriously looks like a whole new tackle. He's all of the faster and stronger, and still the same size

Crazy how players get better when they leave our team lol.

I'm not saying we have a pro bowl line here, but again this is the WCO offense. The ball needs to come out quick. Doe-eye dropping back and staring at his first read for 3 seconds before he gets to the 2nd read (if he gets to the 2nd read) isn't doing the line any favors. Not to mention, if you ask any OL, they hate it when their QB leaves the pocket, especially as quickly as Ponder does. How can they block when they don't know where he is?

I mentioned this after last week's game but I think the D-line is ineffective because of the lack of blitzing. The line became relevant when Williams finally starting blitzing some linebackers. Just because you have good pass rushers, that doesn't mean you can bring 4 every down and sit in a cover shell. You need to mix it up otherwise it's too easy to scheme against. Especially with an inexperienced QB. Also the type of pass rush needs to be mixed up as well, the Vikings utilize the stunt very infrequently.

As for the offense, I believe that Felton covered up a lot of deficiencies and we will see a noticeable improvement in the run when he returns. I also believe the coaching staff made a mistake by keeping Fusco and shipping off Schwartz (who looked pretty good today). Recall that they rotated a lot last year. Loadholt has always been a liability in pass protection so I think he's playing at his usual level. Sullivan I believe is more injured than he's leading on. The only puzzling one is Kalil who went from a very solid LT to one that is highly inconsistent.

Reignman wrote:Crazy how players get better when they leave our team lol.

I'm not saying we have a pro bowl line here, but again this is the WCO offense. The ball needs to come out quick. Doe-eye dropping back and staring at his first read for 3 seconds before he gets to the 2nd read (if he gets to the 2nd read) isn't doing the line any favors. Not to mention, if you ask any OL, they hate it when their QB leaves the pocket, especially as quickly as Ponder does. How can they block when they don't know where he is?

This causes me to ask the question, what pocket? I almost never saw an actual pocket today. In fact, I don't recall one, although I am sure there must have been some. And this is not the WCO, but a demented hybrid that bears little resemblance to the real thing first developed in the 70s by the Vikings.

Yeah, there isn't a single thing we do that I would call part of a true west coast offense. That was something childress wanted to do way back when, then he realized how good AD was at running (and bad at catching / blocking) and that pretty much went out the window.

What we have now is suppose to be a two tight end power running game offense. But even that isn't totally true as Carlson hasn't worked out. Still, it's what our offense mostly resembles as of now.

As for the OL and DL. I think it's about 75% coaching and 25% talent. The Bears are the perfect example and I have a ton of envy for them right now. They couldn't pass protect to save their lives, but bring in a good offensive minded coach and suddenly they're a probowl line. They gave up 44 sacks in 16 games last year and now they have ONE sack in 3 games. I don't care how much talent you get for the line in the off season, that's fixing something on the coaching side of things, something we could use when we get our new guards.

mondry wrote:What we have now is suppose to be a two tight end power running game offense. But even that isn't totally true as Carlson hasn't worked out. Still, it's what our offense mostly resembles as of now.

What you're saying, and what I've contended for awhile now, is Frazier and co are just winging it as they go? Like Ponder being drafted as a "franchise guy" and when that didn't work out he transitioned into a "game manager". And when we realized AD was healthy and better than ever we became a "run first" team. Watch out for our tricky chameleon offense, it'll change right before your eyes.

I still don't know what we're trying to do on defense. Lull teams into a false sense of confidence? Saving the tricky stunts, blitz packages, and ball hawking for the playoffs? I mean is that really the idea, let the other team catch the ball in front of you and then just try to make a solid tackle? Our goal is just to keep the score close? That has failure written all over it. What am I saying, we've seen it fail over and over already. Especially at the end of the last 2 games.

Reignman wrote:What you're saying, and what I've contended for awhile now, is Frazier and co are just winging it as they go? Like Ponder being drafted as a "franchise guy" and when that didn't work out he transitioned into a "game manager". And when we realized AD was healthy and better than ever we became a "run first" team. Watch out for our tricky chameleon offense, it'll change right before your eyes.

I still don't know what we're trying to do on defense. Lull teams into a false sense of confidence? Saving the tricky stunts, blitz packages, and ball hawking for the playoffs? I mean is that really the idea, let the other team catch the ball in front of you and then just try to make a solid tackle? Our goal is just to keep the score close? That has failure written all over it. What am I saying, we've seen it fail over and over already. Especially at the end of the last 2 games.

Yep, it's a bit of a joke when it comes down to it. But just like childress calling the WCO a "kick ####" offense he never really ran a WCO as Peterson is not a good WCO back and Tarvaris was never a good WCO QB.

When Musgrave first got here he very much wanted to install and run a 2 Tight End offense (think new england with Gronk and Hernadez) but Carlson never worked out as that 2nd pass catching tight end so now it's more of a power running game.

Oddly enough, it's pretty similar on defense. We've wanted to run a defense like the bears but we've never had an Urlacher. Arguably the most important position in a 4-3 cover 2 is the MLB and ours is probably the worst in the league.

mondry wrote:As for the OL and DL. I think it's about 75% coaching and 25% talent. The Bears are the perfect example and I have a ton of envy for them right now. They couldn't pass protect to save their lives, but bring in a good offensive minded coach and suddenly they're a probowl line.

3 new starters and a new TE might have something to do with it too.

EDIT: I was speaking to a Bears fan this morning and he reminded me that they actually replaced 4 starters on their line. So 5 of their 6 primary blockers weren't on the team prior to this season.

To your main point; coaching is part of what's changed. Under Trestman, there's been a serious effort to call plays that allow Cutler to get the ball out of his hands quickly, before the rush can get to him. The new OL coach may have something to do with it too but replacing 2/3 of the line and and the TE has made a big, big difference.

They way the D-line played for most of the 2nd half indicates that they have not been bringing it up til then. The blitzing seemed to help a lot in that case. But I tend to think that opposing QBs have to easy a time exploiting our weakness in the short middle of the field...LB. TEs and RBs have eaten this defense up and rendered the pass rush almost completely uneffective.
The defense has regressed when it should have gotten better and that falls squarely on Alan Williamms IMO.

The O-line lacks talent IMO. Schemes and coaching aside, these guys are just losing their 1 on 1 matchups all too often and are completely over matched against the blitz. It doesn't help to have an utterly unimaginative offensive scheme hampered by the greeness of the passing attack.

It was said that the hallmark of this regime was to be it's ability to create a scheme for the players they have, rather than force them into being cogs in a predetermined system. They haven't accomplishbed this and it shows.

One of the biggest problems with the offensive line is that we are trying to run a zone blocking scheme when only one guy truly fits it - Matt Kalil. Sullivan can fit the zone blocking system, but I cannot help be feel he would be more comfortable in a different system. Fusco, Johnson, and especially Loadholt don't fit the zone scheme. The offensive line not only sorely lacks talent (looking at you Fusco you pile of dog ####), it is not suited for the zone scheme.

Honestly, I cannot wait for the offseason. Hopefully we can finally get decent guards for once - I honestly do not see how the position can be ignored again. Guard has been a cluster for us for years. I mean we really lucked out with Steve Hutchinson, but RG? Man that spot hasn't been good since we had freaking David Dixon and even he wasn't a cannot miss player. Since Dixon has left he have had played studs like Adam Goldberg, Artis Hicks, Anthony Herrera (if you think I rag on Fusco a lot, boy you shoulda heard me when it came to Herrera), and all-pro, perennial hall of famer Brandon Fusco. I don't understand what is so hard about taking a chance on a RG. We have countless opportunities to have done so but we never have.


As far as the defensive line, I have no idea what is going on. All i can say is Letroy Guion needs to be benched indefinitely. Why he continues to get snaps just baffles me. Just play Sharrif Freaking Floyd next to K Will. You don't need a true nose tackle in the Cover 2. I don't how many times I have said this. Floyd doesn't need to line up at the 3 spot every play. Or FFS, move K Will over to the 'nose' spot if they want Floyd at 3.

One disappointing player has been Everson Griffen. He seems to utilize the same move to generate a rush and it is not working. Then again, he is lining up at defensive tackle when we go in the Nickel. Perhaps he needs to play off the edge. It just sucks to see Griffen making zero impact - he is one of my favorite players on the team.

Outside of quarterback, offensive line is crucial for building a team. Frankly, our offensive line hasn't been good for years. I hope Spielman wakes up and smells the coffee - it is time to upgrade both guard positions.