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Some insightful comments from my hero Fran Tarkenton on the Vikes 2012 team and especially on Ponder.

http://www.twincities.com/ci_21471502/f ... h-second-w

I believe in the possibility of a competitive team. A bad/mediocre team always rises the following year, why not the Vikes. C'mon coaching staff...play to "win," not survive!

...wisdom through throw it downfield

"I think, at worst, we may be second-best in the division," Tarkenton said.

And let me guess, at best a Super Bowl team!

Ok Fran, time to take your meds and eat dinner....come along now...

But stuck in his original criticism of Favre was this line, three months before the QB joined the Vikings:

"I kind of hope it happens, so he can fail."

That hasn't worked out the way Tarkenton hoped. Favre, 40, had one of his best years with 4,202 passing yards, 33 TDs and a career-low seven INTs.

Good call Fran. And an NFC Championship game appearance. This is the kind of brilliant insight Sir Francis brings to the table.

indianation65 wrote:A bad/mediocre team always rises the following year

Always? No. Often rises, maybe even usually rises, but certainly not always.

Eli wrote: Always? No. Often rises, maybe even usually rises, but certainly not always.

True. Detroit Lions is a team that comes to mind.

Just Me wrote: True. Detroit Lions is a team that comes to mind.

Matt Millen specifically comes to mind. The fact that most teams that under-perform over a period of time do so because they have some inherent problem that either isn't recognized or dealt with. It usually takes the form of one person with a huge ego who is allowed to ignore facts on the basis of hope, belief, or purported experience. That person can be the GM or coach, or it can be the owner, in which case the team can remain stuck in the doldrums for a long, long time (Al Davis comes to mind).

Once the underlying issue is dealt with, the team can finally return to the "normal" cycle that draft position, ease of schedule, free agency, and, most importantly, honest critical assessment of a situation normally promotes. If the team is functional all the way to the top, it's even possible to avoid the severe dips and remain competitive over long periods of time (Packers, Pats, Steelers, and Eagles come to mind).

The inherent problems the Vikings have right now:

- A head coach who thinks running and stopping the run should be a major priority
- $40 million of guaranteed money tied up in one RB, a position that has become increasingly devalued in the modern NFL
- A management structure that still lacks key components necessary to clear accountability for actions taken (or not taken)
- An ownership team that continues to make key decisions about coaches and GM without seriously entertaining alternatives
- Draft failures and ill-advised trades in recent years that have left the team with serious shortages of talent almost across-the-board

All of those things function as headwinds preventing the team from recovering per the "normal" cycle. Should the Vikes finish last again this year, that would be the first time in their 50+ year history of such a stretch of futility, and a pretty good indicator that the problems they face go far deeper than can be fixed by the passage of time alone.

All of those things function as headwinds preventing the team from recovering per the "normal" cycle.

And it would probably be as easy as the owner finally realizing he's in over his head on the football end of things, and finally hiring a competent, experienced general manager who's worked for functional and successful programs in the past. And allowing that person to do the job they need to do, which includes hiring and firing the head coach.

i will be shocked . ponder reminds me a little bit of fran tarkenton. hopefully he will get as accurate.

Anything is possible. Heck our Gophers are 2-0. Let's go, Vikings!!!

VikingLord wrote:The inherent problems the Vikings have right now:

- A head coach who thinks running and stopping the run should be a major priority
- $40 million of guaranteed money tied up in one RB, a position that has become increasingly devalued in the modern NFL
- A management structure that still lacks key components necessary to clear accountability for actions taken (or not taken)
- An ownership team that continues to make key decisions about coaches and GM without seriously entertaining alternatives
- Draft failures and ill-advised trades in recent years that have left the team with serious shortages of talent almost across-the-board

- I don't really think putting a priority on rushing and stopping the run is a major concern. For Frazier, I think he needs to show improvement in being able to adapt as the game progresses (i.e. halftime adjustments), better clock management, and cleaning up on some of the poor decisions fans and beat writers have pointed out numerous times.

- I don't see the money we paid to Peterson as a big issue. The Vikings were under the cap and made no significant moves in free agency last year. They even deferred some cap space to 2013. Peterson's money shouldn't have an impact on re-signing guys like Harvin or working the FA market.

- I don't like the quasi-GM role Spielman has although I think it's an improvement over years past. I do agree that the Wilf's would be better off going through a slower, more detail hiring process.

- Regarding draft failures and ill-advised trades, I think that's part of the business. Moss was obviously a bad trade but then you have trades like the one for Jared Allen. I think we've only cut two players from the last two drafts so whether there's a failure there remains to be seen. If we're extending back further, Spielman has mostly hit in early rounds with guys like Peterson and Harvin and done okay in mid-rounds (Griffen, Edwards, Robison, Sullivan, etc.).

What's most concerning would be the failure to find any sort of solidarity in the secondary. Guys like Bowman and Carr can't even make the team. The DB revolving door is a long one: Tyrell Johnson, Marcus McCauley, Asher Allen, Benny Sapp, Carl Paymah, Cedric Griffin, Lito Sheppard, Frank Walker, Eric Frampton, Madieu Williams.... just ridiculous. One of Frazier's biggest strengths is his supposed ability to turn around a secondary and that simply hasn't been the case. For me, that is really more concerning than anything else right now. If he can't turn things around with 1st rounder Smith, 2nd rounder Cook, and 3rd rounder Robinson, I don't really think there's any more excuses left.

VikingLord wrote:The inherent problems the Vikings have right now:

- A head coach who thinks running and stopping the run should be a major priority

That's not even close to a major problem.

- A management structure that still lacks key components necessary to clear accountability for actions taken (or not taken)

Where, does this current management structure lack clear accountability, especially to a point where it can be considered a major problem?

If you had said the management structure was a major problem prior to this year, I'd be able to get on board with that but there's simply no evidence to indicate the current management structure is problematic.

- An ownership team that continues to make key decisions about coaches and GM without seriously entertaining alternatives

Again, that's an assumption and not necessarily a problem. We don't have enough of a sample size to know if it's a problem. I would have preferred to see a different management structure from the start and to see a more thorough interview process when they hired the first HC but promoting from within is different. It's not uncommon at all in the NFL and it can be a successful strategy.

- Draft failures and ill-advised trades in recent years that have left the team with serious shortages of talent almost across-the-board

I agree with this one but I'd take it a step further and say that those problems were tied to the failed management strategy of giving the head coach too much power. That led to holding an aging roster together and filling holes with stopgap players in an effort to be successful in the short term, regardless of consequences for the future. The Vikings are stuck dealing with those consequences now and everyone involved in allowing that strategy to happen blew it big time.

All of those things function as headwinds preventing the team from recovering per the "normal" cycle.

I don't see how paying Peterson, considering it important to run and stop the run, the current management structure of the team or the way in which Frazier was hired without an extensive interview process to consider other coaches are acting as "headwinds preventing the team from recovering per the "normal" cycle". How are these things currently slowing the Vikings rebuilding process? They could have considered any number of candidates and still hired the same HC (and the jury is still out on that HC). Peterson's obviously injured and not helping the team right now but that doesn't mean he won't and his contract isn't currently an obstacle to the acquisition of talent. If it becomes one, that's a different story. Running and defending the run are good attributes for any team and there's nothing to indicate a desire to do those things is preventing the current coach and GM from attempting to build a quality passing game and pass defense. Nothing. They've spent high draft picks in the past 2 drafts specifically to address the pass offense and defense and they've signed free agents for the same reason. It's clearly considered a priority.

Should the Vikes finish last again this year, that would be the first time in their 50+ year history of such a stretch of futility, and a pretty good indicator that the problems they face go far deeper than can be fixed by the passage of time alone.

Well, they aren't going to be fixed by the passage time alone but if the Vikings finish last in the division this season, it could still be more indicative of past problems than current problems. Issues created during the Childress era (though not exclusively by Childress) may have simply dug a hole too deep for the team to climb out in two years under a new HC. The Vikes could conceivably go 8-8 and still finish last in this division but a last place finish this season won't necessarily indicate deep-rooted problems within the current organization. I think the circumstances of such a finish would have to be examined more closely to determine that.

A tenth of our salary cap is invested in Peterson, and his cap hit only gets worse going forward. We had to cut McKinnie to get under the cap last year. And after cutting veterans left and right are still only 10th in cap space. Despite being a top 5 drafting team. With a lack of talent across the board. An owner who hires a GM with no meaningful accomplishments to his name (except working in the front office of two teams that he did little to nothing to improve) And hand picks coaches himself while keeping the power to hire/fire out of the GMs hands.

The only way this is getting fixed is when Zygi finally hires a competent front office person from a top level organization and allows them control over ALL football hires/fires. The final roster. And most importantly, the head coach. We're in this situation because a businessman with zero football experience is hand picking our head coaches and general managers. Not sure why we should have expected anything other than what we got, the worst two years in team history. And still in the bottom of that pit trying to claw our way out.

One tenth of the salary cap for, at the time, the BEST player in the NFL and the whole face of the franchise. Having to cut fat #### lazy good for nothing Mckennie (who has been replaced by an outstanding young talent that in all probability will be an all-pro left tackle for years to come) , what a huge loss that was . A newly appointed general manager that is not handcuffed by the triangle of authority, who had a top notch draft and acquired a bonified starters in Kalil and Smith (plus four other picks that will contribute this year and quite possible the #1 receiver in Simpson that they so desperately need. As for the owner what owner does not "hand pick" his head coach Thanks to Zygi this team is staying in Minny for the next 20 years. His efforts, in that capacity has saved OUR team from leaving the state.
For God sakes this team is in a rebuilding mode and that has clearly been defined but some people do not want to give the coach, QB or system a fair chance to succeed.
If the Vikes beat Jacksonville tomorrow then it will be because Jacksonville sucks, if the Vikes lose then they suck. It is a no win situation but I have faith in the team that I follow and root for no matter what.

S197 wrote:What's most concerning would be the failure to find any sort of solidarity in the secondary. Guys like Bowman and Carr can't even make the team. The DB revolving door is a long one: Tyrell Johnson, Marcus McCauley, Asher Allen, Benny Sapp, Carl Paymah, Cedric Griffin, Lito Sheppard, Frank Walker, Eric Frampton, Madieu Williams.... just ridiculous.

Griffin was a good player before injuries took their toll on his career.

I think Johnson stands out as the big bust on that list. He was a high second round pick.

One of Frazier's biggest strengths is his supposed ability to turn around a secondary and that simply hasn't been the case. For me, that is really more concerning than anything else right now. If he can't turn things around with 1st rounder Smith, 2nd rounder Cook, and 3rd rounder Robinson, I don't really think there's any more excuses left.

Robinson has talent but he's a small school player trying to make it in the NFL. Hopefully, he'll be a find but Smith and Cook really need to work out.

I think what the list you posted reveals more than anything else is one of the problems the Vikings have had in building a quality secondary and keeping it together has been what they've been willing to invest in it in the first place. They've had bad luck with situations like Griffin's injuries, Allen's retirement and Johnson's failure (he was considered a quality prospect with good upside coming out of college) but for the most part, their DBs have been cast-offs and draft picks selected in the third round or lower. While a team can't be built from first and second round picks alone, it's hard to find top DB talent outside of the first two rounds. With rare exceptions, free agents tend to be free agents for a reason. If they continue investing more in the secondary, they should get a better return on their investment but they have to avoid misfires like Johnson.

Mothman wrote:Griffin was a good player before injuries took their toll on his career.

I think Johnson stands out as the big bust on that list. He was a high second round pick.

I thought Griffin was about average, I personally didn't see him as good but at the same time I wouldn't put up a big argument against someone if they took that position. I agree on Johnson, clearly the most disappointing.

Robinson has talent but he's a small school player trying to make it in the NFL. Hopefully, he'll be a find but Smith and Cook really need to work out.

I think that sells Robinson a little short. He was a 3rd round pick but a very high 3rd round pick, practically a 2nd rounder if you consider the Vikings draft position and the lost pick by the Saints. Agree wholeheartedly on the second sentence.

I think what the list you posted reveals more than anything else is one of the problems the Vikings have had in building a quality secondary and keeping it together has been what they've been willing to invest in it in the first place. They've had bad luck with situations like Griffin's injuries, Allen's retirement and Johnson's failure (he was considered a quality prospect with good upside coming out of college) but for the most part, their DBs have been cast-offs and draft picks selected in the third round or lower. While a team can't be built from first and second round picks alone, it's hard to find top DB talent outside of the first two rounds. With rare exceptions, free agents tend to be free agents for a reason. If they continue investing more in the secondary, they should get a better return on their investment but they have to avoid misfires like Johnson.

You're right, a team can't build a secondary on 1st and 2nd round picks. Johnson has already been mentioned but I think you should be able to find good players in the 3rd round and the Vikings have missed a lot there too. McCauley never lived up to expectations and Asher Allen struggled in coverage. Hopefully Robinson isn't strike three. I think taking this year into account, the Vikings have made a rather significant investment in their secondary over the last few years, multiple picks in the first 3 rounds. It's the return on investment part that really hasn't panned out. I don't expect Smith or Robinson to be without growing pains, but we simply can't have this much investment in a secondary and continue to play musical chairs.