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GBFavreFan wrote:IAs for being like John Elway, Elway was a lumbering oaf with the agility of a crippled cow, and it wasn't even physically possible for him to slide feet first.

You might want to look into Elway's history a little more. For most of his career, Elway was an agile, athletic QB who was considered a serious running threat. If I'm not mistaken, he's ranked 6th all-time in rushing yards by an NFL QB. He ran for over 3400 yards and 33 TDs, not the numbers of a "lumbering oaf with the agility of a crippled cow".

Regarding the thread question: I think it's entirely dependent on the circumstances. Diving feet first works best if there's sufficient space in front of the QB. He can get to the ground with little concern about taking a big hit to a vulnerable spot. However, in closer quarters, without sufficient space in front of him, sliding feet first leaves the QB's upper body more vulnerable to a hit. That's probably why Musgrave is suggesting head first dives in some situations. It's perfectly logical. It gets the QB's head and shoulders down, pointed toward the ground, covers the ball and overall, make his most vulnerable areas (head, shoulders, ribs) less likely to be hit.

Either way, the idea is to get down before getting hit. Musgrave is not suggesting Ponder stick his head out to absorb a blow. He's telling him to get his head down. It's probably slightly easier to do when running anyway because it allows the runner to use his forward momentum.

RBs put their heads down and initiate contact all the time and they rarely suffer injuries to their head or upper body as a result. Ponder isn't even trying to initiate contact. he's just trying to get to the ground quickly and avoid contact. As far as I'm concerned, any way that's accomplished is good.

they reviewed QBs sliding head first and didn't find a single injury, yet there are numerous examples of sliding feet first resulting in injury. You never see someone complain that a RB or WR diving head first. Honestly, I think Musgrave has a good point on this one. Sliding feet first leaves much more vulnerable to whip lash and concussions

This was one of Musgrave's example videos (skip to about 1:36): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFVlWEe-rXo

saint33 wrote:they reviewed QBs sliding head first and didn't find a single injury, yet there are numerous examples of sliding feet first resulting in injury. You never see someone complain that a RB or WR diving head first. Honestly, I think Musgrave has a good point on this one. Sliding feet first leaves much more vulnerable to whip lash and concussions

I'm just curious of the sample sizes, though. The fact there are no injuries known from sliding head first makes it impossible to say one way or another, since there is no comparision to accuarately evaluate the practice. IOW if there were 20 injuries in sliding feet first but only one sliding head first, that sounds like 'head first' is the way to go. But (hypothetically) if one dug deeper and found that there were 200 instances of 'feet first' evaluated against 5 'head first' injuries, the preferred action reverses - 10% injury rate for 'feet first' vs. 20% injury rate for 'head first.'

It seems so counterintuitive (going 'head first') that I would think it odd there would be a significant number of instances to make an accurate comparison, but I'm fairly certain that the coaching staff has to have done their homework on this one. Haven't they?

Just Me wrote: I'm just curious of the sample sizes, though. The fact there are no injuries known from sliding head first makes it impossible to say one way or another, since there is no comparision to accuarately evaluate the practice. IOW if there were 20 injuries in sliding feet first but only one sliding head first, that sounds like 'head first' is the way to go. But (hypothetically) if one dug deeper and found that there were 200 instances of 'feet first' evaluated against 5 'head first' injuries, the preferred action reverses - 10% injury rate for 'feet first' vs. 20% injury rate for 'head first.'

It seems so counterintuitive (going 'head first') that I would think it odd there would be a significant number of instances to make an accurate comparison, but I'm fairly certain that the coaching staff has to have done their homework on this one. Haven't they?

I would think so. Honestly, it doesn't seem counterintuitive to me at all and it actually surprises me a little that so many people find it so. I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong because I obviously haven't done any research on this myself but intuitively, going down headfirst seems like a much better way to protect your head than sliding feet first, which is going to leave your upper body exposed to anyone coming in low to make a tackle. As I mentioned above, when running it's easier to pitch forward than it is to lean back and slide because your forward momentum aids in taking you to the ground and you don't need as much space in front of you to get down.

I guess what I don't understand is how people think going to the ground head first is more dangerous.

It's probably worth linking to the article below in this thread (I think the link is already in another thread). It explains pretty clearly what Musgrave and Ponder have in mind:

http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_21 ... source=rss

I guess what I don't understand is how people think going to the ground head first is more dangerous.

Because there's a rule in place that doesn't allow someone who slides feet first to be hit after they initiate the slide? Obviously if you try to slide with a guy already going to hit you, yes, it'd be more dangerous than feet first. But if you slide with the intended result in mind, not being able to be legally hit, then I don't see how it's possible to be more dangerous?

Unless the QB is incompetent like plenty of examples Musgrave probably put together of a guy trying to slide feet first with two linebackers about to plaster him. But Brady and Manning slide feet first all the time and don't get hit at all. So if the result is not getting hit, or getting hit in the body, you might see where some of us wonder how they justify sliding feet first?

Maybe he just doesn't trust his QB to know when to slide. Which makes sense considering last season.

Demi wrote: Because there's a rule in place that doesn't allow someone who slides feet first to be hit after they initiate the slide? Obviously if you try to slide with a guy already going to hit you, yes, it'd be more dangerous than feet first. But if you slide with the intended result in mind, not being able to be legally hit, then I don't see how it's possible to be more dangerous?

It isn't but Musgrave isn't advising Ponder to go down head first in every situation, just in traffic. If he has sufficient space to slide feet first he should and probably will take the "feet first" approach.

Mothman wrote: I would think so. Honestly, it doesn't seem counterintuitive to me at all and it actually surprises me a little that so many people find it so. I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong because I obviously haven't done any research on this myself but intuitively, going down headfirst seems like a much better way to protect your head than sliding feet first, which is going to leave your upper body exposed to anyone coming in low to make a tackle. As I mentioned above, when running it's easier to pitch forward than it is to lean back and slide because your forward momentum aids in taking you to the ground and you don't need as much space in front of you to get down.

I guess what I don't understand is how people think going to the ground head first is more dangerous.

Demi's point is a good one, but I was actually referring to the laws of physics here. Regardless of the other factors, when your going to the ground 'head first' you are accelerating your head and neck into the contact (if there is going to be any) which results in kinetic energy being increased at impact. If you are sliding feet first, your head and neck are actually maintaining the same speed (perhaps even slightly decelerating) which results in less kinetic energy at the point of impact. Granted these are slight changes, so I'm not claiming they are significant; just...counter-intuitive.

I'll grant you that getting to the ground quickly is the best way to go, and assuming there is no contact it doesn't matter how you get there. I just don't see how a QB that is 'slow to slide' somehow merits the idea that sliding feet first is inherently more dangerous that sliding head first.

BTW - My opinions are free and they are worth every penny you paid for them....

Mothman wrote: It isn't but Musgrave isn't advising Ponder to go down head first in every situation, just in traffic. If he has sufficient space to slide feet first he should and probably will take the "feet first" approach.

But if he finds himself in traffic, doesn't that mean he already should have slid?

I have to agree with Demi on this one. Unless those extra 2 yards are critical, the QB should always avoid contact if possible. The rules protect a QB who slides feet first. There is no such protection for a QB who wants to play RB. The QB who slides lives to run another play. The QB who chooses to take on tacklers, OTOH, might decide to go head-first.

Personally, I'd love to watch Ponder truck Woodson. Ponder gets flushed outside the pocket, trucks Woodson on a weak tackle attempt, Ponder steps on his face and keeps going. THAT would be worth Musgrave's logic...

VikingLord wrote:But if he finds himself in traffic, doesn't that mean he already should have slid?

It depends on the circumstances. Sliding isn't always going to be possible.

I have to agree with Demi on this one. Unless those extra 2 yards are critical, the QB should always avoid contact if possible. The rules protect a QB who slides feet first. There is no such protection for a QB who wants to play RB. The QB who slides lives to run another play. The QB who chooses to take on tacklers, OTOH, might decide to go head-first.

This isn't about taking on tacklers, it's about avoiding hits and going to the ground head first is intended as a way to protect the QB and avoid dangerous contact in traffic when sliding isn't a safe option. Ponder isn't being told to put his head down and initiate contact. He's being told to get down.

Just Me wrote:Demi's point is a good one, but I was actually referring to the laws of physics here. Regardless of the other factors, when your going to the ground 'head first' you are accelerating your head and neck into the contact (if there is going to be any) which results in kinetic energy being increased at impact. If you are sliding feet first, your head and neck are actually maintaining the same speed (perhaps even slightly decelerating) which results in less kinetic energy at the point of impact. Granted these are slight changes, so I'm not claiming they are significant; just...counter-intuitive.

That definitely makes sense but again, it depends on the circumstances. One look at the hit that took out Trent Green shows the obvious danger involved in sliding if there's not enough space. What you're talking about shows the danger in going head first but think about it: if the defender is close enough that going down head first means accelerating the head and neck into contact then going feet first in the same situation leaves the head fully exposed to such contact.

The bottom line: if Musgrave is telling Ponder to be careful and protect himself and Ponder is listening and applying that advice, that's what counts. It doesn't matter how he goes down and avoids injury as long as he gets down and avoids injury.

In speaking about Elway:

GBFavreFan wrote:I know his history well thank you and his rushing yards don't disprove what I said in the slightest. Would you classify Jerome Bettis as agile or nimble? No, he pounded the ball like hundreds of other rushers and is a top 10 rusher of all time. Agility is not a prerequisite to gain a rushing yard, and Elway did not gain rushing yards from juking, jiving, and cutting on a dime.

Just for a reference watch this Video. Look at some of the moves he makes evading tacklers. In his later years, perhaps after all his playing had taken its toll, he did fit the description you stated. But he was one of the more mobile quarterbacks at one time...

Just Me wrote:Just for a reference watch this Video. Look at some of the moves he makes evading tacklers. In his later years, perhaps after all his playing had taken its toll, he did fit the description you stated. But he was one of the more mobile quarterbacks at one time...

Exactly. He didn't gain 3400+ yards on the ground by pounding the ball like Bettis. There's a great deal of space between "lumbering oaf" and Barry Sanders or Michael Vick. Elway definitely didn't possess the kind of agility and quickness those players had/have but he was nimble, evasive and a good open field runner. By the end of his career, time and injuries had slowed him down considerably but at one point, defenses actually had to worry about his mobility.

The bottom line: if Musgrave is telling Ponder to be careful and protect himself and Ponder is listening and applying that advice, that's what counts. It doesn't matter how he goes down and avoids injury as long as he gets down and avoids injury.

The bottom line is he's been hit four times because of those head first slides. When he's had plenty of time to slide and avoid being hit altogether. And we're talking about meaningless preseason games. It matters how he gets down, because getting hit when he can avoid it is the opposite of trying to avoid injuries....

Demi wrote: The bottom line is he's been hit four times because of those head first slides. When he's had plenty of time to slide and avoid being hit altogether. And we're talking about meaningless preseason games. It matters how he gets down, because getting hit when he can avoid it is the opposite of trying to avoid injuries....

IF you're correct and he had plenty of time to get down then he wasn't hit because he went down head first, he was hit because he went down too late.