Vikings Message Board.Com

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:24 pm**

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:54 pmOK, I had to do it and read the items at those links, and as I suspected, these are completely subjective rankings written by sports writers.

You've provided a couple of stats that back the claim that Cook is top-5, but giving me a list of other people's opinions that Cook is top-5 doesn't bolster your argument (at least with me). I don't care if the entire world "thinks" or "feels" like Cook is a top-5 running back - I care about his statistical rankings compared to his peers.

When basically every source you can find points to Cook as a top 5 back I think it provides pretty good evidence. Especially considering the sources aren't "Vikings fans" wearing their purple glasses.

There is no definitive "this RB is the best" stat. Everyone looks at the stats, watches some games, and makes an opinion. My only point is that the opinion I'm expressing is pretty widely accepted. In the end, it's still just an opinion. Regardless, there's plenty of reason for Cook to think he's a top 5 RB.

I've provided a bunch of those, mostly for his production as a runner, but some comparison for his production as a receiver as well with Aaron Jones of Green Bay. If Cook can argue he's top 5, Jones can argue he's top 6, because he's literally right behind Cook and arguably ahead of him in some categories and he was every bit as critical to his team's (greater) success in 2019.

Ok? There is possibility of him holding out, sure.

Do you think going back to the days of rookie holdouts, either before signing their rookie deal or after, is a good place for the NFL to be? Should the NFL adopt MAGA - Make Agents Great Again? Do you think the average 5+ year vet who has proven himself at the pro level should be giving up money to pay rookies and guys on rookie contracts who throw fits and threaten to breach what they agreed to? Or maybe the league should just chuck the idea of a salary cap and go full MLB where rich teams can buy championships year after year?

Dalvin Cook is going into his 4th year so I'm not sure how the rookie holdout stuff applies. Having the rookies on "prove it" deals is fine.

Plenty of "vet" players hold out too.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of players holding out. That doesn't mean I can't respect their side of it. Especially when the team is handing out big time extensions to other players.

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:28 pm**

Let's face it Cliff, all this is about is you not wanting to change the banner again.

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:30 pm**

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:28 pm Let's face it Cliff, all this is about is you not wanting to change the banner again.

You've got me there! If he could stay on the team and play it would make my life a little easier

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:38 pm**

Cliff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:58 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:34 pm
Not counting receiving yards and TDs is ridiculous. However Cook has had one good season so far. IMO he isn't a huge injury risk. He would have played 15 games last year except for the one the Vikings lost on purpose. I'm OK with the $10 million number based on what I expect going forward. The problem is that even if Dalvin accepts that amount he is going to be a very unhappy playing with that disrespect. The thing is I really doubt if any other team is going to offer Dalvin the deal he wants if we were to trade him. So he's just going to be a very unhappy person no matter how things end up.
Why would you think he'll feel disrespected? 10m a year is still top 5 RB money.

I'm pretty sure he will feel very disrespected at $10 million a year. There will have to be incentives for him to earn more for him to save face. He has no leverage at all and will have to come to camp, so he will almost certainly sign the best offer he gets. However, he will feel it is under duress if he doesn't get $13 million or more.

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:41 pm**

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:21 am
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:47 pm
Whatever Randy. The Vikings sat him for the sole purpose of losing to the Bears week 17. That isn't on Dalvin. It's ridiculous to act like he missed two games last year when he never got the chance to play one of them when he was ready willing and able to go.
Chill out, I am just correcting you, jeez!

I didn't need correcting. I said he only played 14 games and pointed out that one of the missed games was 100% on the team and had nothing to do with Dalvin.

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:48 pm**

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:23 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:45 pm To me you're still using a ridiculous stat. What about his TDs. Ultimately that is what matters. He only missed one game last year due to injury. Nothing wrong with that. He is one of the 5 best RBs in the league based on what almost everybody believes and sees. 2nd most yards per game. That said he doesn't have a track record. He's got one very good season in the bank. I expect last year to be more representative of him going forward then the first two seasons. Players are usually paid based on potential and future expectations than previous. I personally think $10 million is the right number. Dalvin will believe he is disrespected at that.
I'm trying to be impartial in evaluating whether Cook is what he thinks he is and I'm even delving into the notion being promoted in this thread by many that hey, it's fine to sign a contract and then attempt to rip it up unilaterally later by expressing unhappiness and/or threatening a holdout. Cook had a pro agent when he signed his rookie contract and rookie contracts in the NFL are negotiated under the terms of a collective bargaining agreement hashed out between representatives of all the players and representatives of all the owners that attempts to balance the interests and obligations of everyone.

As for Cook's TDs, he ranked 4th rushing (13 total) and I would assume is tied for last receiving since he had no receiving TDs.

First place in TDs was 16 by Aaron Jones. I wonder if he's going to hold out for $10 million per year now... He averaged 4.6 YPC (versus Cook's 4.5), finished with 1,084 yards rushing (versus Cook's 1,135), played a full 16 games (versus Cook's 14, which was the most he's managed since joining the league 3 years ago), and his team made it to the NFC Championship Game.

Jones wasn't too shabby as a receiver either since that seems to be critical to this discussion. His receiving stats in 2019 were:

Receptions Targets Yards YPC TDs Long
49 68 474 9.7 3 67

Just to be concise I'll put Cook's 2019 receiving numbers up here by comparison

Receptions Targets Yards YPC TDs Long
53 63 519 9.8 0 31

Those stats (both rushing and receiving) look pretty similar to me.

So should Aaron Jones think about holding out now too? Is he arguably a top 5 back?

There is a very good reason the CBA discourages holdouts, especially by rookies. It's a really slippery slope, and once one player gets his way by sitting in the corner holding his breath, it creates a lot of incentives for others who feel slighted to do the same.

I've seen Jones and Cook both play. Cook is better. Neither should be holding out for big bucks (I define that as over $10 million a year). Neither will get the big bucks and everybody loses. However, these players have huge egos or they wouldn't be so good. As incredibly stupid as it would be for Cook to not report it is possible he won't. I agree with your contention that these holdouts are bogus and shouldn't be happening.

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:52 pm**

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:36 pm
Cliff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:35 am
Honestly, I'll have to read the rational behind the rankings you posted later. I'm curious if those are based on someone's opinion or actual stats.

Cliff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:35 am So no player from the 2019 team should be extended? The team didn't sniff the Superbowl - so we should make it weaker?
With all due respect, that is a ridiculous extension of what I said.

Cliff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:35 am You don't think Cook is important enough to the team to pay and so the fact that the team will almost certainly lose him in 2020 if they don't extend him this year doesn't really matter. We'll just have to agree to disagree there.
No, I think he should play out the 2020 season and if he proves he can perform for the entirety of the season I'm fine with the Vikings paying him. I don't think a strategy of investing heavily at QB and RB is a proven way to compete for a Superbowl in the modern NFL, but if the Vikings brain trust believes differently I'm fine with that. They are the ones whose jobs are tied to the decisions they make in the offseason.

Either way, if Cook performs he'll be paid accordingly.

At any time a player can lose the remainder of his career to injury. If I were in Cook's shoes I would be negotiating in good faith with them and vice versa about an extension. Sure he could play this season out for the 1.3 million and bet on himself putting up an all time great season and get even more next year, but that is so risky. I would go for the one in the hand instead of 2 in the bush myself.

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:56 pm**

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:54 pm
Cliff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:35 am Profootball Network - Dalvin Cook #4
Bleacher Report Dalvin Cook #5
Dallas Morning News Dalvin Cook #5
USA Today Dalvin Cook #5
OK, I had to do it and read the items at those links, and as I suspected, these are completely subjective rankings written by sports writers.

You've provided a couple of stats that back the claim that Cook is top-5, but giving me a list of other people's opinions that Cook is top-5 doesn't bolster your argument (at least with me). I don't care if the entire world "thinks" or "feels" like Cook is a top-5 running back - I care about his statistical rankings compared to his peers.

I've provided a bunch of those, mostly for his production as a runner, but some comparison for his production as a receiver as well with Aaron Jones of Green Bay. If Cook can argue he's top 5, Jones can argue he's top 6, because he's literally right behind Cook and arguably ahead of him in some categories and he was every bit as critical to his team's (greater) success in 2019.

Do you think going back to the days of rookie holdouts, either before signing their rookie deal or after, is a good place for the NFL to be? Should the NFL adopt MAGA - Make Agents Great Again? Do you think the average 5+ year vet who has proven himself at the pro level should be giving up money to pay rookies and guys on rookie contracts who throw fits and threaten to breach what they agreed to? Or maybe the league should just chuck the idea of a salary cap and go full MLB where rich teams can buy championships year after year?

What he's done in the past is only slightly relevant. It's what he's expected to do in the future that he should be paid on. He is expected to be top 5 going forward by all those sources. Maybe you are smarter than them or maybe not. I expect him to be top 5 going forward assuming he plays.

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:29 pm**

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:41 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:21 am

Chill out, I am just correcting you, jeez!
I didn't need correcting. I said he only played 14 games and pointed out that one of the missed games was 100% on the team and had nothing to do with Dalvin.

I am an idiot, I did not read it clearly, my apologies

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:54 pm**

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:29 pm
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:41 pm
I didn't need correcting. I said he only played 14 games and pointed out that one of the missed games was 100% on the team and had nothing to do with Dalvin.
I am an idiot, I did not read it clearly, my apologies

You're not an idiot, but you didn't read it carefully enough.

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:55 pm**

a very strong article for the don't pay the RB crowd.
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/06/dalvin ... ont-matter

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:18 pm**

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:25 pm OK, so let's look at another set of measures, these provided by Football Outsiders (https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/rb/2019):

Player Team DYAR Rk YAR Rk DVOA ▴ Rk VOA Runs Yards EYds TD FUM Suc
Rate Rk
R.Mostert SF 191 7 188 7 26.8% 1 26.3% 137 772 775 8 1 53% 9
M.Ingram BAL 257 3 249 3 19.8% 2 19.0% 202 1,018 1,194 10 2 60% 1
K.Drake 2TM 202 5 176 8 19.7% 3 16.0% 170 817 942 8 2 51% 16
E.Elliott DAL 324 1 271 1 16.5% 4 12.4% 301 1,358 1,637 12 3 56% 4
C.McCaffrey CAR 278 2 190 6 14.9% 5 7.5% 287 1,387 1,468 15 1 47% 28
J.Howard PHI 113 14 105 14 14.2% 6 12.7% 119 525 608 6 0 53% 8
A.Jones GB 207 4 226 4 12.0% 7 13.8% 236 1,091 1,202 16 2 56% 5
G.Edwards BAL 126 11 124 12 11.8% 8 11.5% 133 710 736 2 2 56% 6
L.Murray NO 125 13 118 13 10.7% 9 9.6% 146 637 760 5 0 60% 2
D.Cook MIN 183 8 191 5 9.3% 10 10.1% 250 1,135 1,178 13 3 49% 23
D.Henry TEN 192 6 251 2 6.7% 11 11.4% 303 1,542 1,391 16 5 50% 17

Sorry for the formatting.

Just a general FYI, if you copy/paste tables, it will work better if you use the code tags, which is to the right of the quote tags. Basically <code>paste your stuff</code> but use brackets [ ] instead of < >

As an example, your table would look like this:

Code: Select all

Player 	Team 	DYAR 	Rk 	YAR 	Rk 	DVOA 	Rk 	VOA 	Runs 	Yards 	EYds 	TD 	FUM 	Suc
Rate 	Rk
E.Elliott 	DAL 	324 	1 	271 	1 	16.5% 	4 	12.4% 	301 	1,358 	1,637 	12 	3 	56% 	4
C.McCaffrey 	CAR 	278 	2 	190 	6 	14.9% 	5 	7.5% 	287 	1,387 	1,468 	15 	1 	47% 	28
M.Ingram 	BAL 	257 	3 	249 	3 	19.8% 	2 	19.0% 	202 	1,018 	1,194 	10 	2 	60% 	1
A.Jones 	GB 	207 	4 	226 	4 	12.0% 	7 	13.8% 	236 	1,091 	1,202 	16 	2 	56% 	5
K.Drake 	2TM 	202 	5 	176 	8 	19.7% 	3 	16.0% 	170 	817 	942 	8 	2 	51% 	16
D.Henry 	TEN 	192 	6 	251 	2 	6.7% 	11 	11.4% 	303 	1,542 	1,391 	16 	5 	50% 	17
R.Mostert 	SF 	191 	7 	188 	7 	26.8% 	1 	26.3% 	137 	772 	775 	8 	1 	53% 	9
D.Cook 	MIN 	183 	8 	191 	5 	9.3% 	10 	10.1% 	250 	1,135 	1,178 	13 	3 	49% 	23
N.Chubb 	CLE 	162 	9 	99 	15 	4.5% 	12 	-0.6% 	298 	1,493 	1,324 	8 	2 	45% 	37
C.Carson 	SEA 	130 	10 	96 	16 	1.9% 	16 	-0.8% 	278 	1,235 	1,278 	7 	6 	57% 	3
G.Edwards 	BAL 	126 	11 	124 	12 	11.8% 	8 	11.5% 	133 	710 	736 	2 	2 	56% 	6
J.Jacobs 	OAK 	126 	12 	171 	9 	3.5% 	14 	7.9% 	242 	1,152 	1,096 	7 	1 	51% 	14
L.Murray 	NO 	125 	13 	118 	13 	10.7% 	9 	9.6% 	146 	637 	760 	5

Posted: **Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:54 am**

Cook has asked for $16 million per season but decided to drop to under $15 million per season, it is still too high though

Posted: **Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:25 am**

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:54 am Cook has asked for $16 million per season but decided to drop to under $15 million per season, it is still too high though

Got a source? As far as I know Cook nor any of his agents have said anything to anyone. From what I can tell, all of this actually stems from a single sentence by an unnamed source reported by Adam Schefter:

"He's out," a source told ESPN. "Without a reasonable extension, he will not be showing up for camp or beyond."

Everything else that I've found has been speculation leading back to Adam Schefter's report with an unnamed source on this one sentence.

Posted: **Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:54 am**

Cliff wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:25 am
RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:54 am Cook has asked for $16 million per season but decided to drop to under $15 million per season, it is still too high though
Got a source? As far as I know Cook nor any of his agents have said anything to anyone. From what I can tell, all of this actually stems from a single sentence by an unnamed source reported by Adam Schefter:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/dalv ... is-asking/

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