Vikings Message Board.Com

Mothman wrote:

It might count if he was playing alone.

What is so hard to grasp about the idea that in a sport where each team has 22 starters and more players than that involved, one player is never solely responsible for a loss? Why even try to fight that obvious fact? Isn't it enough for people to acknowledge that Ponder's performance in that game was a huge reason for the loss? What's the point of trying to hold him solely responsible?

The Vikings allowed 23 points in that game and GB had an 11 minute scoring drive to begin the 4th quarter. Walsh missed a 42 yard field goal with just over 2 minutes left. Those were factors in the loss too.

I think it's human nature.....although I'm more of the opinion that it's really a learned behavior. It's just like when people blame the president for the price of gas, or government for the fact that they lack the ability to govern themselves. We are(many of us) even encouraged, from an early age, to put accountability for our very lives on the shoulders of someone else.

And in team sports there are positions that have an unequal amount of influence on the out come of games. Pitchers and catchers, QBs, FG kicker etc.....it plays right into the psyche of blame. A guy is either hero getting too much credit or a bum with too much blame. It's appears to be one of the corner stones of fanaticism. Our society is often fanatical.....

against green bay, we nearly set an nfl record because not 1 receiver had a single catch until less than half way of the 4th quarter. did you expect the receivers to throw the ball to themselves?

What's the point of trying to hold him solely responsible?

I assume the same point of trying to go out of way to absolve him of the responsibility altogether and spread it out. Even in games where it's clear he by himself did more than enough to keep us from winning the game.

A guy is either hero getting too much credit or a bum with too much blame.

Or he gets his share of the blame depending on how he performed....and his share of the credit based on HIS PERSONAL PERFORMANCE. If he's getting blown up, the defense is getting shredded, and the running game is shut down, and he is terrible, fine. But when the defense is doing a solid job, the running game is going crazy, and he himself personally throws points away and costs his team more than any other single player...maybe it's possible he's the reason we lost the game?

or again it's NEVER a single players fault and let's just divide it equally among all players on the team. Regardless of how they actually performed?

mosscarter wrote:against green bay, we nearly set an nfl record because not 1 receiver had a single catch until less than half way of the 4th quarter. did you expect the receivers to throw the ball to themselves?

Do you expect the QB to get open for them? Don't you think the receivers themselves had something to do with the lack of WR receptions in that game?

Demi wrote:I assume the same point of trying to go out of way to absolve him of the responsibility altogether and spread it out.

There was no attempt to absolve Ponder of anything. I clearly stated that he has to shoulder a great deal of the blame for the loss. Assigning blame is the opposite of absolution, which is release from blame.

Once again, you appear to be purposefully ignoring what I wrote and that isn't posting in good faith. It contributes nothing constructive to the discussion or the board. You're basically inventing an opposing point of view to ridicule instead of dealing with what was actually posted!

... or again it's NEVER a single players fault and let's just divide it equally among all players on the team. Regardless of how they actually performed?

Nobody said anything about dividing responsibility equally or ignoring how Ponder actually performed. The point is simply that he wasn't the sole reason for the loss. That doesn't mean he wasn't the biggest reason for the loss.

Vikings biggest problem was the Vikings wr's couldn't separate. teams didn't respect the wr corp. it will be much more interesting this year. also Adrian Peterson is just entering his prime imo.

The Breeze wrote:I think it's human nature.....although I'm more of the opinion that it's really a learned behavior. It's just like when people blame the president for the price of gas, or government for the fact that they lack the ability to govern themselves. We are(many of us) even encouraged, from an early age, to put accountability for our very lives on the shoulders of someone else.

And in team sports there are positions that have an unequal amount of influence on the out come of games. Pitchers and catchers, QBs, FG kicker etc.....it plays right into the psyche of blame. A guy is either hero getting too much credit or a bum with too much blame. It's appears to be one of the corner stones of fanaticism. Our society is often fanatical.....

Well said!

Demi wrote: Or he gets his share of the blame depending on how he performed....and his share of the credit based on HIS PERSONAL PERFORMANCE. If he's getting blown up, the defense is getting shredded, and the running game is shut down, and he is terrible, fine. But when the defense is doing a solid job, the running game is going crazy, and he himself personally throws points away and costs his team more than any other single player...maybe it's possible he's the reason we lost the game?

or again it's NEVER a single players fault and let's just divide it equally among all players on the team. Regardless of how they actually performed?

"We" lost the game?
I'm talking about attitude and why people feel the need to blame in the first place. Trade those people to Seattle AFAIC...there's no place for it on "our" team. It was 1 game of a 10-6 playoff team 1 season removed from a 3-13 record. They improved by 7 games! Did one guy win all those games?.....did one guy lose all 13 the season before?

In the words of Sgt Hulka, "Lighten up Francis".

Mothman wrote:Comparing Ponder to young player X or Y and lamenting that he's not as good as they are seems relatively pointless to me because those players aren't available. They're on other teams, in their own set of circumstances. I'd much rather look at what he has to offer, how he performed as a rookie, where he made strides in 2012, what he's shown that suggests he can be a a solution for the Vikes, etc. I care a lot less about Ponder becoming a top 5 QB or zipping a TD into the end zone than than I do about his ability to be the QB of a championship Vikings team and throw TD passes. If those passes aren't zipped, that's fine. They're still TDs. If Ponder's stats are mediocre but his performance isn't and the team is winning, I'll be happy.

I have similar feelings. I don't love or hate Ponder and I'm sure not going to predict what kind of NFL future he'll have from this point on. But I can absolutely say as a Vikings fan that I want the team to win. So I don't care about Ponder being the next Manning or whatever, nor do I care about comparing him to a QB on another team. I just care about Ponder's ability to put points on the board and win games for the Vikings this *upcoming season*. Nothing against Ponder personally, because I don't even know the guy, but if he flunks out for Vikings this year, then I believe the team will look elsewhere for a future franchise QB during the next draft. And I'll be just fine with that. OTOH, I'll be elated if Ponder plays well and leads the Vikings to the playoffs this year.

That brings up another point. Ponder is the Vikings starting QB this season - period. Case closed. That's how it's going to be. At this point, I don't even care about the good or bad stuff I saw from Ponder the last couple years as long as he steps up this year. So, yeah, I want him to succeed. If Coach Frazier had decided to go with Cassel, then I'd be pulling for him. But the job is Ponder's for now and I really hope he can excel at it.

I'm talking about attitude and why people feel the need to blame in the first place.

Because they're asked to name a game where Ponder did poorly enough to shoulder the blame to a degree that the outcome can be directly tied to his performance? Or lack of performance...

Jeffbleedspurple wrote:All I know is I hope he doesn't make me regret buying his jersey even before he took over for McNabb. I had high hopes for the kid and I still do though now I am a little more optimistic.

Improve in his deep game and be more consistent and he should be alright.

I still dont expect Ponder to just started airing it out all of a sudden because we have this refreshed WR group now. Hence why we got Patterson and Jennings. Two guys who excel at taking those 3-4 yard passes and turning them into big gains. They are trying to find WR who can work to Ponder's strength. I still think we haven't found a TRUE deep threat WR. We may have one in Simpson and/or Patterson but only time will tell. We all know Wright can catch deep ones but he's not our primary WR who will be lined up on the outside.

losperros wrote:I have similar feelings. I don't love or hate Ponder and I'm sure not going to predict what kind of NFL future he'll have from this point on. But I can absolutely say as a Vikings fan that I want the team to win. So I don't care about Ponder being the next Manning or whatever, nor do I care about comparing him to a QB on another team. I just care about Ponder's ability to put points on the board and win games for the Vikings this *upcoming season*. Nothing against Ponder personally, because I don't even know the guy, but if he flunks out for Vikings this year, then I believe the team will look elsewhere for a future franchise QB during the next draft. And I'll be just fine with that. OTOH, I'll be elated if Ponder plays well and leads the Vikings to the playoffs this year.

That's pretty much where I stand on the matter. I'm hoping Ponder will prove himself to be the right man for the job but if he doesn't, I want the Vikes to move on and find that player.

Demi wrote: Because they're asked to name a game where Ponder did poorly enough to shoulder the blame to a degree that the outcome can be directly tied to his performance? Or lack of performance...

But isn't the context more about painting a negative picture of Ponder? Our teams QB? Why was the question asked in the first place?

To be clear here is the whole text of my comment you quoted and responded to:

And in team sports there are positions that have an unequal amount of influence on the out come of games. Pitchers and catchers, QBs, FG kicker etc.....it plays right into the psyche of blame. A guy is either hero getting too much credit or a bum with too much blame.

I don't disagree that in football, and in most sports, one guy at just about any position can have a large impact on the outcome of the game....."Cost them a chance to win" is a better way of phrasing it IMO. "Losing" shouldn't even be part of the vocabulary of a football team. Conversely one guy absolutely cannot win a game by himself..... so, even though a guy may really blow it in a big situation one game, there is no way the team is ever going to win without him, hence the mindframe is they succeed or fail as a team, always. It's why I disliked team sports as a kid, so I stuck to wrestling, and racing bikes.

I'm sure that the one person who is most stressed about Ponder's performance (good or bad) is Ponder. IMO his biggest issue as an NFL QB is consistently having the confidence to play within himself and give his team the best chance to win. It does absolutely no good, for anyone who wants this team to succeed, to create an air of negativity about him going into the season.

That's my whole opinion on Christian Ponder in a nutshell. Not that anyone asked me, I was just giving my opinion to a question Jim had put forth....not that he didn't already have his own answer.

Jeffbleedspurple wrote:All I know is I hope he doesn't make me regret buying his jersey even before he took over for McNabb. I had high hopes for the kid and I still do though now I am a little more optimistic.

Improve in his deep game and be more consistent and he should be alright.

Huh! And here I thought you already regretted buying his jersey considering you bashed him most of last season AND tried to give away your Ponder jersey a half a dozen times.

Keep it real, home slice!

With that said, I'm glad you simmered down a bit and changed your tune.

I love me some Christian Ponder, but even I will be a little upset if he doesn't become more consistent. I just hope he proves me right and proves you wrong! lol We went at it pretty hardcore last season--well, you and everyone else vs. me...but I'm waiting to say: "BOOM! Told you!"

Come on Ponder!

Demi wrote: We already did. The Packers game he threw points off the board himself. But that doesn't count unless...he runs backwards for a safety with 1 second left up by 1 point? I guess?

That interception in the end zone still gives me nightmares. I kind of want to beat him just thinking about it again. lol. I hated those "end of the half--deep inside our own territory" picks, too. Holy cow! Some things are just inexcusable!

Growing pains hurt. That's why there is pain in the phrase.

Ponder will be much improved this season. I can feel it! More experience, more confidence, legitimate weapons, and the extra push by Cassel will really help.

MelanieMFunk wrote: Huh! And here I thought you already regretted buying his jersey considering you bashed him most of last season AND tried to give away your Ponder jersey a half a dozen times.

Keep it real, home slice!

With that said, I'm glad you simmered down a bit and changed your tune.

I love me some Christian Ponder, but even I will be a little upset if he doesn't become more consistent. I just hope he proves me right and proves you wrong! lol We went at it pretty hardcore last season--well, you and everyone else vs. me...but I'm waiting to say: "BOOM! Told you!"

Come on Ponder!

I know his feeling. The password to my laptop is CPONDER7... plus I ALSO have a Ponder jersey.. I have not worn it yet but I bought it the same year we drafted him. But here's where you definitely are gonna laugh, along with the Ponder jersey I HAVE A MCNABB JERSEY. I bought that one along with the Ponder jersey but I thought McNabb was gonna be good. I will forever disdain McAwful, thinking he was going to take us somewhere. What a waste of $60 and he didn't even last a full season with the team at that..lol