Lions @ Vikings post game

[StumpHunter]

Sorry in advance for what is going to be a downer post, but is anyone else getting concerned at the inability of the Vikings offense to sustain drives? They were 2-9 for the game, partially contributing to a whopping disparity of only 25:56 in TOP compared to the Lions' 34:04.

No explosive plays until the very end when they literally had no choice. I know Kirk overthrew Osborne on the one play, but the offense continues to under-perform with largely safe, conservative throws. This is 3 regular season games now where this pattern has repeated. They got away with it against the Packers mostly because the Packers didn't bother covering JJ and he got a lot of YAC as a result, but Cousins is rarely looking downfield.

While the result was favorable, the Vikings were largely outplayed for most of the game yesterday. I can understand that to a degree on the road against Philly, and while the Lions are a much better team than they were last year, I expected the Vikings to come out much sharper and ready to play on Sunday only to watch them dominated in the first quarter. The crowd was as silent as I think I've ever seen them through much of that time.

I'll give the Vikings credit for getting back into it, but as others noted, Dan Campbell seemed to do his part to help that.

This team really seems like the same team we watched most of last year. Incredibly streaky on both sides of the ball and consistently inconsistent. Maybe they will clean some things up, but honestly if nobody told me who the head coach of the Vikings was I can honestly say I'm still watching the 2021 Zimmer-led Vikings.

No, not concerned.

1. This is a brand-new offense, and from all accounts quite complex.
2. None of the starters played in the preseason.
3. It may take 5-6 weeks for the offense to gel.

And this is as far from a Zimmer offense as a team could get. As evidence, I offer the final drive for the Vikings against Detroit. Everybody who follows the Vikings knows that Mike Zimmer would have played for the field goal and the tie to get the game to overtime. Kevin O’Connell said after the game that his only goal was to score the touchdown and end the game in regulation. He even mentioned sending the fans home happy, something that never would have crossed Zimmer’s mind.

The offense may not be that explosive yet, but in philosophy and game management, it’s completely new. And refreshing.

It is certainly new, not sure yet if it is refreshing.

Most of the numbers indicate that the offense has taken a step back over last season when we had a rookie play caller, and is significantly worse than 2019 and 2020. They will need to put up 29 points this week against NO to match what baby Kubes offense did last season in his first 4 games starting Rashod Hill at LT.

All of the offensive inefficiencies are back after a very efficient week 1, with the Vikings being 27th in TOP per drive and 24th in 3 and outs per drive. We just no longer have the big plays to make up for it and the Vikings are only ahead of 2 teams playing their starting QB (Bengals and NYG) in completions over 20 yards.

The Mike Zimmer holding the offense back narrative is getting very close to being completely busted and it will take a significant turn around from this offense or we will need to stop blaming a guy who never called plays on offense and start looking at the players who actually ran the plays.

[VikingLord]

The offense may not be that explosive yet, but in philosophy and game management, it’s completely new. And refreshing.

I'm not sure there is really all that much new about it save the guy calling the plays, at least in terms of results thus far. Some players are a little different, but even there it's largely the same group as last year.

What bothers me most about what I'm seeing so far is the lack of explosive plays, because one of the main criticisms of the last few years of the offense under Zimmer was how conservative it was. And yet, so far this year, the Vikings offense has been even less explosive. It would be one thing if they were at least sustaining drives and controlling the clock, but they're not doing that. They're ceding a lot of TOP and putting the defense in a lot of bad spots on top of that.

I pointed this out in the preseason as well and was assured that since the Vikings didn't play their starters in the preseason it wouldn't be an issue once the regular season began. Well, so far that TOP and 3rd down conversion futility has continued into the regular season with the starters as well. Maybe they just need more time to execute the plays better? But that starts to sound a lot like the same thing Zimmer was saying when the defense struggled last year. KOC, at least so far, hasn't said that, but if things don't start to improve, the pressure to place blame somewhere is going to grow.

We have to remember also that KOC didn't call offensive plays in his previous job and likely didn't design the plays either. He is a lot like Brad Childress when Childress was hired as head coach by the Wilfs. I know in hindsight that hiring seems suspicious and Childress clearly didn't have what it took to be a head coach, nor was he an offensive genius, but at the time he seemed like a good hire too or at least one with a reasonable basis. I am willing to give KOC time to show what he can do, but we have seen this same situation play out once before under the Wilfs, and while I hope they haven't repeated their earlier mistake.

If you like what you're seeing so far from the offense, I'd like to know what you like about it. From what I'm seeing, if deeper receivers aren't left basically wide open the ball isn't going downfield, and the running game has been very spotty and not something they can rely on when the passing game struggles. It's still a small sample size, but I wonder what it would have looked like had the Packers not left JJ uncovered most of that first game.

[JJBreaksRecords]

The offense is just as bland as last year. And the D could even be worse. We wont always find good teams playing bad against us.

[phantom]

Nice game by Cook.

[Pondering Her Percy]

The offense is just as bland as last year. And the D could even be worse. We wont always find good teams playing bad against us.

lol man I swear with some of you guys. Like it literally pains you to give any credit. I'm having a hard time figuring out if some of you actually want the Vikings to win, or would rather have them lose so you can say "I told ya so" about this guy or that guy. Like we're 2-1, 2-0 in the division and here you are now saying "good teams played bad against us" Like give me a break. How about you actually give credit to the team that won the game. If we lose, you complain. If we win, you make up bogus reasons why it shouldn't be a win and continue to complain. Like holy hell it gets old. We're 3 games into a season with an entirely new regime. The Vikings are 2-1 and have a legitimate shot to start off 4-1. Chill out and be happy

[StumpHunter]

Nice game by Cook.

Up until the fumble he was running really well. Glad KOC finally decided to turn him loose.

[StumpHunter]

The offense is just as bland as last year. And the D could even be worse. We wont always find good teams playing bad against us.

lol man I swear with some of you guys. Like it literally pains you to give any credit. I'm having a hard time figuring out if some of you actually want the Vikings to win, or would rather have them lose so you can say "I told ya so" about this guy or that guy. Like we're 2-1, 2-0 in the division and here you are now saying "good teams played bad against us" Like give me a break. How about you actually give credit to the team that won the game. If we lose, you complain. If we win, you make up bogus reasons why it shouldn't be a win and continue to complain. Like holy hell it gets old. We're 3 games into a season with an entirely new regime. The Vikings are 2-1 and have a legitimate shot to start off 4-1. Chill out and be happy

Goes on a rant about other posters and then tells someone else to chill out. Good stuff.

[J. Kapp 11]

The offense may not be that explosive yet, but in philosophy and game management, it’s completely new. And refreshing.

I'm not sure there is really all that much new about it save the guy calling the plays, at least in terms of results thus far. Some players are a little different, but even there it's largely the same group as last year.

What bothers me most about what I'm seeing so far is the lack of explosive plays, because one of the main criticisms of the last few years of the offense under Zimmer was how conservative it was. And yet, so far this year, the Vikings offense has been even less explosive. It would be one thing if they were at least sustaining drives and controlling the clock, but they're not doing that. They're ceding a lot of TOP and putting the defense in a lot of bad spots on top of that.

I pointed this out in the preseason as well and was assured that since the Vikings didn't play their starters in the preseason it wouldn't be an issue once the regular season began. Well, so far that TOP and 3rd down conversion futility has continued into the regular season with the starters as well. Maybe they just need more time to execute the plays better? But that starts to sound a lot like the same thing Zimmer was saying when the defense struggled last year. KOC, at least so far, hasn't said that, but if things don't start to improve, the pressure to place blame somewhere is going to grow.

We have to remember also that KOC didn't call offensive plays in his previous job and likely didn't design the plays either. He is a lot like Brad Childress when Childress was hired as head coach by the Wilfs. I know in hindsight that hiring seems suspicious and Childress clearly didn't have what it took to be a head coach, nor was he an offensive genius, but at the time he seemed like a good hire too or at least one with a reasonable basis. I am willing to give KOC time to show what he can do, but we have seen this same situation play out once before under the Wilfs, and while I hope they haven't repeated their earlier mistake.

If you like what you're seeing so far from the offense, I'd like to know what you like about it. From what I'm seeing, if deeper receivers aren't left basically wide open the ball isn't going downfield, and the running game has been very spotty and not something they can rely on when the passing game struggles. It's still a small sample size, but I wonder what it would have looked like had the Packers not left JJ uncovered most of that first game.

Do me a favor. Please watch this video.



This is KOC himself talking about two plays on offense and one on defense. It explains perfectly what I’m talking about.

[J. Kapp 11]

After 16 years on this message board, you'd think I'd be used to the negativity. But I'm not. It still frustrates the hell out of me.

Some of you say you're not seeing anything different with Kevin O'Connell's offense than you saw with Zimmer's offense. You don't see O'Connell as anything but Brad Childress II, never having called plays on his own, perhaps never having even designed plays. You watch a game on TV, get frustrated that we don't put up 35 points with ease, and declare the offense exactly the same.

I would encourage those of you who feel that way ... DO SOME RESEARCH!

All you have to do is watch ONE FILM SESSION with Kevin O'Connell to see how much we as fans have to look forward to.

Since many of you refuse to watch a 9-minute video (even though you'll take 20 minutes to type your opinion), allow me to summarize two plays for the Vikings on Sunday against the Lions that O'Connell covers in his film session at vikings.com.

Play 1: The TD pass to Adam Thielen
The Vikings line up in exactly the same formation they used on the first TD to Jefferson against the Packers. JJ is wide left and comes in motion across the formation to the right. The Lions are heavy, with a lot of linemen to try and stop a rushing TD. That leaves their cover guys in man. JJ's man follows him across the formation. They are in Cover-zero ... no free cover man. If somebody gets beat, there's no help.

O'Connell knows the Lions have watched film on the JJ touchdown against the Packers, and he uses it against them. JJ runs the same route. Thielen's man is closest to JJ, and he is not, by god, gonna let JJ beat him. So he goes with JJ, pointing to JJ's man to pick up Thielen. But the communication fails, and they BOTH follow JJ. Thielen crosses over, and it's an easy touchdown.

Now tell me again how O'Connell can't design plays. Or call them. Or make adjustments. The guy took a play from two weeks previous and ran a variation of it to completely bamboozle the Lions.

Play 2: The game-winning TD pass to Osborn
For this one, you have to start with the previous play to Osborn, who had started in the slot right and ran a deep cross to the left for a 28-yard gain. The Vikings line up in exactly the same formation as the previous play. Only this time, Osborn starts to run the crosser, but pivots and runs to the right corner. JJ is left — he'll run a deep cross to the right. Because everybody is so concerned about JJ, the man who is supposed to cover Osborn makes a slight false move toward JJ and loses his leverage on Osborn. It's an easy pitch-and-catch touchdown to win the game.

On this play, O'Connell made the adjustment to Osborn's route DURING THE TIMEOUT between plays. He doesn't tell you this in his film session, but he told it to Ben Leber in his radio interview after the game. O'Connell believed the Lions would be so concerned with JJ that Osborn's man would incorrectly have inside leverage so he could help with JJ. That was all Osborn needed to beat him badly.

Again, remind me of how O'Connell is too inexperienced to make adjustments ... he made that one on the fly!

I would remind everybody ... this is a completely new system. Players are still working out the kinks, learning the terminology, learning the techniques involved. But so many of you want piles of points RIGHT NOW. You have no patience. And because you don't see the Vikings turning back into the 1998 version, because the current STATS don't bear out an all-time great offense, you call it "same as Zimmer." It's going to take time for the offense to hit on all cylinders consistently, but I believe it will get there. Why? Because we have a really, really smart guy designing and calling the plays, and we have seriously good skill position players and an ascending O-line.

But hey, don't take my word for it. WATCH THE VIDEO. It's in my post above. Listen to O'Connell and how he talks about this. If you don't come away impressed, then I guess I've lost the battle. But if you don't watch, then I've got little else to say.

Look, I'm not some sort of self-proclaimed football savant. I don't know jack. But I try very hard to learn. I search beyond PFF for the answers. So please ... don't just formulate an opinion and then search for stats to prove you're right. Do better. Be better. Educate yourself.

[VikingLord]

Do me a favor. Please watch this video.



This is KOC himself talking about two plays on offense and one on defense. It explains perfectly what I’m talking about.

The link to the video doesn't work, but if this is the film session with KOC on the Minnesota Vikings team site, I will watch it there.

As to your second post, I'm looking more at net results and not specific plays, so there might be some disconnect between what I'm saying and what you're saying based on that.

And also, just to be clear, I'm not saying KOC and Childress are the same or will have the same career as head coach of the Vikings. I'm more pointing out the parallels I see between the two, specifically as it relates to the common factor between the two of the Wilfs evaluating and hiring both of them.

At 3 games into his inaugural season it is way too early to say KOC is going to fail, or even that he won't get the offense on track. I'm merely pointing out that so far at least, the offense hasn't been on track. They're decidedly middle-of-the-pack in most statistical categories and really struggling in others like 3rd down conversion rate, time of possession, and explosive plays from scrimmage. In the game you cited against the Lions, that last past to Osborne to win was Cousins' deepest target of the day to that point. Prior to that, I don't know what his deepest target was, but it couldn't have been more than 15 yards downfield.

I'm not trying to get under anyone's skin here or be negative. It's something I'm noticing and it concerns me given what we've been told to expect from both KOC and this offense, especially compared to what we'd grown accustomed to under Zimmer and the criticisms levied at him.

[Pondering Her Percy]

lol man I swear with some of you guys. Like it literally pains you to give any credit. I'm having a hard time figuring out if some of you actually want the Vikings to win, or would rather have them lose so you can say "I told ya so" about this guy or that guy. Like we're 2-1, 2-0 in the division and here you are now saying "good teams played bad against us" Like give me a break. How about you actually give credit to the team that won the game. If we lose, you complain. If we win, you make up bogus reasons why it shouldn't be a win and continue to complain. Like holy hell it gets old. We're 3 games into a season with an entirely new regime. The Vikings are 2-1 and have a legitimate shot to start off 4-1. Chill out and be happy

Goes on a rant about other posters and then tells someone else to chill out. Good stuff.

How'd I know you'd come to your disciples defense Call it a "rant", call it whatever you want. Like I said, we're 3 games into the season and now we're complaining after we win? To the extent where we're saying "good teams are playing bad against us". Or how about the Vikings just won the damn game, period. Must suck when you live in negativity

[Pondering Her Percy]

After 16 years on this message board, you'd think I'd be used to the negativity. But I'm not. It still frustrates the hell out of me.

Some of you say you're not seeing anything different with Kevin O'Connell's offense than you saw with Zimmer's offense. You don't see O'Connell as anything but Brad Childress II, never having called plays on his own, perhaps never having even designed plays. You watch a game on TV, get frustrated that we don't put up 35 points with ease, and declare the offense exactly the same.

I would encourage those of you who feel that way ... DO SOME RESEARCH!

All you have to do is watch ONE FILM SESSION with Kevin O'Connell to see how much we as fans have to look forward to.

Since many of you refuse to watch a 9-minute video (even though you'll take 20 minutes to type your opinion), allow me to summarize two plays for the Vikings on Sunday against the Lions that O'Connell covers in his film session at vikings.com.

They dont want to watch Kapp. They dont want to understand and see a difference. They just want to keep their same old negative opinion about everything and run with it. They are so use to complaining and being negative on this board since the day they joined that they dont know any different. It's a habit at this point and if it doesn't fit their initial narrative, they will avoid it. That is becoming more and more apparent by the day. Being critical of something at times is one thing, but going to the extent of not even being able to accept our wins and just saying "good teams are just playing bad against us" and "we havent seen any change" is just ridiculous at this point

[StumpHunter]

After 16 years on this message board, you'd think I'd be used to the negativity. But I'm not. It still frustrates the hell out of me.

Some of you say you're not seeing anything different with Kevin O'Connell's offense than you saw with Zimmer's offense. You don't see O'Connell as anything but Brad Childress II, never having called plays on his own, perhaps never having even designed plays. You watch a game on TV, get frustrated that we don't put up 35 points with ease, and declare the offense exactly the same.

I would encourage those of you who feel that way ... DO SOME RESEARCH!

All you have to do is watch ONE FILM SESSION with Kevin O'Connell to see how much we as fans have to look forward to.

Since many of you refuse to watch a 9-minute video (even though you'll take 20 minutes to type your opinion), allow me to summarize two plays for the Vikings on Sunday against the Lions that O'Connell covers in his film session at vikings.com.

They dont want to watch Kapp. They dont want to understand and see a difference. They just want to keep their same old negative opinion about everything and run with it. They are so use to complaining and being negative on this board since the day they joined that they dont know any different. It's a habit at this point and if it doesn't fit their initial narrative, they will avoid it. That is becoming more and more apparent by the day

For someone who thinks they have such a keen understanding of how other people think, you sure do lack self awareness of your own issues.

This good fan, bad fan crap is getting so old. Some fans are happy to live in the land of hope for better, while others cannot get past the reality of what is right in front of them. Both have valid viewpoints that should not be belittled. I am sure KOC is a very good offensive mind, he would not be where he is today if he wasn't and he was my second choice for HC after Harbaugh fell through. The video was great, and I hope his knowledge translates into something better on the field than we have seen for most of the past 3 weeks.

Just don't come at your fellow fans claiming the offense is great when the results indicate anything but. It is fine to give a new HC time to work out the kinks and I hope he does, but that is the future and the now is saying this offense has taken a step back from last year and a significant step back from 2019 and 2020.

[Cliff]

This year's offense mostly reminds me of a version of John DeFilippo's in 2018. Hopefully an improved one. The scheme gets too pass heavy if the offense can't get traction early. They pass to set up the run and if the passes don't work out early in the game the time of possession ends up being super skewed which has a lot of negative consequences. That was an issue with the DeFilippo offense as well.

When the scheme is working properly the running game can also get going and they have a lot more balance. It seems like they want to be balanced but when they can't get going Kirk may throw the ball nearly 50 times and the defense ends up on the field way too long.

Enjoyed the video. I agree that we've got a lot to look forward to, I think they just need to iron out some wrinkles.

[J. Kapp 11]

Do me a favor. Please watch this video.



This is KOC himself talking about two plays on offense and one on defense. It explains perfectly what I’m talking about.

The link to the video doesn't work, but if this is the film session with KOC on the Minnesota Vikings team site, I will watch it there.

As to your second post, I'm looking more at net results and not specific plays, so there might be some disconnect between what I'm saying and what you're saying based on that.

And also, just to be clear, I'm not saying KOC and Childress are the same or will have the same career as head coach of the Vikings. I'm more pointing out the parallels I see between the two, specifically as it relates to the common factor between the two of the Wilfs evaluating and hiring both of them.

At 3 games into his inaugural season it is way too early to say KOC is going to fail, or even that he won't get the offense on track. I'm merely pointing out that so far at least, the offense hasn't been on track. They're decidedly middle-of-the-pack in most statistical categories and really struggling in others like 3rd down conversion rate, time of possession, and explosive plays from scrimmage. In the game you cited against the Lions, that last past to Osborne to win was Cousins' deepest target of the day to that point. Prior to that, I don't know what his deepest target was, but it couldn't have been more than 15 yards downfield.

I'm not trying to get under anyone's skin here or be negative. It's something I'm noticing and it concerns me given what we've been told to expect from both KOC and this offense, especially compared to what we'd grown accustomed to under Zimmer and the criticisms levied at him.

I don’t get it. Link works for me. Takes me to YouTube. Oh well.

What I don’t understand is why you’d even make a comparison like that. KOC and Childress couldn’t be more different. There are no parallels as far as I can see. If you’re going to compare results, then let’s be fair and give it more than 3 weeks.

Again, I can’t stress enough … watch the video. Listen to how KOC talks about offense. Heck, listen to how he talks about defense. The guy knows what he’s doing, and I’m confident it will start showing up on the field with regularity.