Vikings Message Board.Com

vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:42 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:21 pm To the Cousin haters:

If Cousins leave and Vikings have a worse quarterback, you all are going to be begging for Cousins to come back, be careful for what you wish for

I don't know man. I'm only 40 and I've endured some pretty crappy QB play from the Vikings in that time. I've seen way worse play than Cousins, but I don't think that fact should make Kirk Cousins the bar to strive for.

If whoever replaces Cousins, (whenever that will be) is worse than him, it'll be pretty much the same right? What is the guy gonna do, have us miss the playoffs? Been there, done that...

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:24 am

vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:42 pm


I don't know man. I'm only 40 and I've endured some pretty crappy QB play from the Vikings in that time. I've seen way worse play than Cousins, but I don't think that fact should make Kirk Cousins the bar to strive for.

If whoever replaces Cousins, (whenever that will be) is worse than him, it'll be pretty much the same right? What is the guy gonna do, have us miss the playoffs? Been there, done that...

I'm 60 and have been watching this QB crap show 20 more years than you. IMO Cousins is the best since Tark. Even Tarks 1st year back with us I think 72 we missed the playoffs. They didn't kick him to the curb. They drafted help like Foreman. And we should always be looking to get better than Cousins but that's not easy. I was hoping for a total tank job this year so we could get the No 1 pick and the kid QB. No luck. No QB was taking our team to the show last year. I don't think to many 27th ranked defenses made the Super Bowl or even the playoffs in history. Maybe Fouts Chargers. Maybe some others but I'm not looking it up. It's extremely rare if it did happen. We need to get this D playing top notch and quickly.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:29 pm
I'm more convinced Cousins can hold up his end of that deal than I am Spielman and Zimmer can hold up theirs heading into next season. Some good luck on Hunter and Pierce would go a long way to help the DL situation, and a full, normal offseason would do wonders for the DB situation. But that interior OL situation has been like a Rubik's cube for Spielman. Here's hoping he finally figures it out...

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:06 am I am not convinced either of them can hold up their end of the deal, but what about the past 3 seasons gives you more confidence in Cousins?

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:06 am Going by past performances, Zimmer and Spielman are more likely to hold up their ends of the bargain than Cousins. 6 seasons, nearly identical results for the QB, but you have seen something that shows you a 33 year Kirk Cousins is going to turn into a SB caliber player?

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:06 am Two top 10 WRs, the 2nd best RB in football, good tackles, a center who was just picked 18th overall, a 2nd round RG, average TEs and people still talk about how we are not putting enough around Cousins for him to succeed because the LG sucked? It is laughable.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:27 pm But how are they going to fix the interior O-line when they’re already $10 million over the cap? And that’s if the cap is $189 million. It could be lower.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:27 pm Again, it’s that conundrum. We say, “Cousins would great if he just had the support,” but he’s so expensive that we can’t afford it. With a reduced cap, its even worse. And in 2022 at $45 million, it’s crippling.

That’s the biggest reason I’m in favor of trading him.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:20 pm
Because he doesn't need to be a "Superbowl caliber player" per se - he just needs to be a clear top 10 player. He doesn't have to go from zero to 60. He just needs to go from 45 to 55.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:20 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:06 am Two top 10 WRs, the 2nd best RB in football, good tackles, a center who was just picked 18th overall, a 2nd round RG, average TEs and people still talk about how we are not putting enough around Cousins for him to succeed because the LG sucked? It is laughable.

Those are all factors that lessen the number of things that need to improve for Cousins. He needs better interior line play. He needs that, and so does Cook and the running game for that matter. If the Vikings offense gets that, Cousins should be more than good enough to get the Vikings over the bar.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:36 pm No, those are all factors indicating that it does not matter what you put on the field with Cousins, he is never going to be good enough.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:07 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:36 pm No, those are all factors indicating that it does not matter what you put on the field with Cousins, he is never going to be good enough.

This quote will become my new signature on the board if the Vikings win a Superbowl with Cousins.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:51 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:07 pm

This quote will become my new signature on the board if the Vikings win a Superbowl with Cousins.

I really hope you get to do that, but would bet my house you won't.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:45 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:51 pm

I really hope you get to do that, but would bet my house you won't.

I don't think it's a good idea to bet your house...

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:27 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:29 pm

As for the stats, I'm not saying I solely believe in the "volume" ones and discount the advanced metrics.

What I'm saying is that while there are numerous ways to measure players at a given position against each other, focusing only the stats that support your argument while discounting ones that don't doesn't move the ball, even if you really believe the metrics you want to point at are more meaningful or better in some way. Like them or not, the volume stats are still compiled against the player's peers across the league. As such, they're useful in comparison. Not definitive in terms of value or even ranking, but in terms of establishing some relative perspective, they are.

Along those lines, Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer have access to the same advanced metrics you do. Apparently neither believes they indicate the Vikings aren't getting value from Cousins even at his pay grade. So they're either complete idiots whose jobs depend on their ability to make those assessments and understand those metrics and yet don't understand them, or they do understand them and their pride simply doesn't allow them to acknowledge they need to cut bait and move on. If the metrics indicate Cousins is middling, what do they lose if they move on other than face?

As for Cousins, yeah, it's time for Cousins to earn his contract, and I think he'll get this coming year to show he can do that. If he can't and the Vikings continue to tread water, and in the absence of some major issue outside of his or anyone's control that could excuse a middling performance, I don't think Spielman, Zimmer or Cousins is going to get another crack at it, at least not with the Vikings. The Wilfs have given all 3 of them everything they could ask for.

I personally think that the key to this upcoming season, though, relies far more on fixing the interior OL, DL and DB situations than it does on Cousins being objectively a top 5 QB or the Vikings somehow swinging a mega deal to get a guy like Watson or one of the top QB draft picks. If those issues are fixed and the Vikings can finish top 10 in offense and defense, then all the Vikings should need from Cousins is a top 10 performance and they should be in the Superbowl conversation come the end of the year. Cousins doesn't have to light the world on fire or be SuperMan - he just has to be good enough, and if the team around him is good enough, they have as good a chance as any other team to win it all.

I'm more convinced Cousins can hold up his end of that deal than I am Spielman and Zimmer can hold up theirs heading into next season. Some good luck on Hunter and Pierce would go a long way to help the DL situation, and a full, normal offseason would do wonders for the DB situation. But that interior OL situation has been like a Rubik's cube for Spielman. Here's hoping he finally figures it out...

Totally agree.

But how are they going to fix the interior O-line when they’re already $10 million over the cap? And that’s if the cap is $189 million. It could be lower.

There are some good players out there in free agency. Joe Thuney is available at guard, but we couldn’t begin to bid on him. Geno Atkins, a Zimmer favorite and 6-time Pro Bowler, is likely to be a cap casualty. He would be a huge upgrade at 3-tech, but we couldn’t afford him even if he gave us a Zimmer discount. If Cousins’ cap hit were similar to Matt Stafford’s $21 million, we could be in the running for guys like this. But here we are.

Again, it’s that conundrum. We say, “Cousins would great if he just had the support,” but he’s so expensive that we can’t afford it. With a reduced cap, its even worse. And in 2022 at $45 million, it’s crippling.

That’s the biggest reason I’m in favor of trading him.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:06 am

VikingLord wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:29 pm
I'm more convinced Cousins can hold up his end of that deal than I am Spielman and Zimmer can hold up theirs heading into next season. Some good luck on Hunter and Pierce would go a long way to help the DL situation, and a full, normal offseason would do wonders for the DB situation. But that interior OL situation has been like a Rubik's cube for Spielman. Here's hoping he finally figures it out...

I am not convinced either of them can hold up their end of the deal, but what about the past 3 seasons gives you more confidence in Cousins?

Vikings' 3 seasons prior to Cousins arrival, with QBs Bridgewater, Bradford and Keenum: 32 wins, 2 division titles, one NFCCG game.

Cousins' 3 seasons prior to joining the Vikings: 24 Wins, 1 division title (only took 9 wins to win it because it was a terrible division), 1 WC round game.

Vikings' 3 season with Cousins: 25 wins, 0 division titles, 1 divisional round game.

Going by past performances, Zimmer and Spielman are more likely to hold up their ends of the bargain than Cousins. 6 seasons, nearly identical results for the QB, but you have seen something that shows you a 33 year Kirk Cousins is going to turn into a SB caliber player?

Two top 10 WRs, the 2nd best RB in football, good tackles, a center who was just picked 18th overall, a 2nd round RG, average TEs and people still talk about how we are not putting enough around Cousins for him to succeed because the LG sucked? It is laughable.

Bowhunting Viking wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:09 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Feb 19, 2021 6:45 pm

I don't think it's a good idea to bet your house...

VikingLord you are 150% correct on the action of betting ones house NOT being a good idea. I mean the Wilfs have done it with Cousins to take us to the promised land for the past 3 years now and we see how that worked out. A true cautionary tale!

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:52 am On the first point, Cousin's contract is not out of line compared to other top QBs in the league. If you don't agree he's a top QB, then he's being paid too much. If you think he's a top QB, then this is pretty much par for the course around the league.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:52 am On the second point, this is only an issue because it makes Cousins harder to part with in the event the Vikings wanted to change direction at QB. With that said, it also makes it harder for Cousins to get out too. This is an overlooked part of the deal and likely was what differentiated the Vikings to Cousins when Cousins was in the FA market. You have to remember that prior to joining Minnesota Cousins' original team (formerly known as the Redskins) had him on perpetual franchise status. They wouldn't commit to him longer term, but at the same time they wouldn't let him test FA either. So the way I see it, when Cousins finally did hit FA he wanted more of a commitment from whatever team he signed with. As noted, this locks in *both* sides as almost no other team is going to take on more than the final year of a large guaranteed contract in a trade situation.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:52 am It's a commitment more than betting the house, and while the final years of the extension he signed are larger, it's reasonable to believe both sides indexed those amounts to what they expected the salary cap to be in those future years. Big numbers, yes, but in context, not as cap-killing or team flexibility killing as they would appear to be at first.


Now, for context, the trade for Herschel Walker was betting the house.

What it would cost Spielman to move on from Cousins and trade for Deshaun Watson would be betting the house as well.

The investment in Cousins is not close to either by comparison.