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As long as our offensive line remains strong and healthy, we should be able to stop any defense, and show a intimidating presence, we will have winning ways.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2020 10:04 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun May 10, 2020 8:44 pm

Huh? Kline's PFF grade was 61, second worst on the line behind Bradbury.

The legend of Josh Kline grows by the day.

73.1 would have made Warford the best Olineman on the Vikings last year.

If you think PFF is relevant that is. I would assume he wouldn't have been cut if he really had played that well and some team would have traded something for him to pay him 3 million this year.

Wow. Kline's rating was worse than Elflein's? That's an achievement. Sort of.

That's why Ignore PPF OL grades. They have proven time after time to be horrible. Kline was our 2nd best O-lineman last season from my 2nd review of games. Elf was clearly our worst lineman. While most may remember him constantly getting blown up, worst was his movement on running plays. I can't tell you how many plays he got to the 2nd level and struggled to do his job.

Guys, our only relatively sure thing on this line is that O'Neill is a starter (who got pushed around by SF's front 4), who probably would start for at least half the league as RT. But I think it's a stretch to rush him into the Elite RT's of the League status.
Beyond that, literally everything is a crap-shoot.

Is Bradbury even good? If so, is he John Sullivan good? Is he Matt Birk good? Is he Joe Berger good? There's a real possibility he's worse than all of them at this moment. While Birk was probably borderline HOF, the same certainly can't be said of Sully and Berg. I do have optimism about this kid though, so I just want to state that, but god forbid he suffers an Elflein-like regression and how does our line look then?

Riley Reiff, ol' reliable. Only he's not, reliable, and regularly gets worked on the bull rush. Doesn't really possess the athleticism you want to see in a Tackle, nor the strength. I don't see the grit. It really shows on tape, based on how many times we have to help him on 3rd downs.

Pat Elflein. Cut the kid. Case closed.

Dru Samia, who EVERYONE has been clamoring to see. Like hes a supremely talented beast waiting to be unleashed. It seems like we all have this same reserved-belief that as soon as he is inserted into the lineup, he's an automatic upgrade from whatever journeyman we picked to fill that role for that year. We haven't seen much of him, and certainly much less vs. respectable opposition.

Ezra Cleveland. I think most of us saw how I felt when we first drafted the kid. While I have remitted most of my unfair criticisms that I hurled upon him early-on, I still contend that an element of my criticisms remain valid. I just look with worry and trepidation upon someone who in his one-shot to show the big wigs what he is made of, came off as so timid and un-nasty as he did on the bag drill at the combine. Stop, I know how ridiculous that sounds, but at the same time, there are just certain guys, that you don't have to tell them to "seize the opportunity", and I just worry that he is not cut out to ever run with the big boys. Time will tell us who he is, but to expect anything within the realm of Joe Thomas is laughably obsurd.

The rest of the guys, its like who knows. Could be a gem here or there. Who knows. Hinton could end up shutting us all up as he progresses through a HOF career, but he, just like any of these other camp-body kids could turn out to be just that. August Casualties at some point in the future.

As it stands right now I hear some of your arguments for optimism, and I too remain optimistic, but I think it is reasonable to also admit that we also have the capability to swing huge the other way. This O-line has a very large performance range in my mind. Floor could be as low as literal bottom-3 O-lines in the league, and ceiling could be as high as above average. Certainly we will know a lot more this time next year.

Just remember how the KC game felt (no Mahomes BTW) at the time. Remember Chris Jones? Remember Seattle? How about that first game against the Bears? Remember how the Painfully average Smith brothers rekt our whole O-line for 60 minutes (twice)? Need I remind you of the San Francisco game? Do yourself a favor and watch even the extended highlights of any of these games from last year, and I think questions about all these guys' viability are valid.

some insight on the OL in the Daily Norseman today.

I am also surprised at the lack of mention of Samia at RG. There was some hype about him earlier but that might have been premature. And, at least per this article, it sounds like Reiff is pretty well locked in at LT

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2020/8/11 ... -chit-chat

Saw this today on O’Neill. As I’ve said before, his pass blocking in hovering on the well above average to elite line

https://twitter.com/lukebraunnfl/statu ... 07744?s=21

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:12 pm Saw this today on O’Neill. As I’ve said before, his pass blocking in hovering on the well above average to elite line

https://twitter.com/lukebraunnfl/statu ... 07744?s=21

Our O Line is going to be solid this year, good in 21 and elite by 23. Not because of greatness by any one player, but because of excellence as a cohesive unit. This due to high level players with continuity of personnel coached by some of the best O line coaches in the business.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:12 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:12 pm Saw this today on O’Neill. As I’ve said before, his pass blocking in hovering on the well above average to elite line

https://twitter.com/lukebraunnfl/statu ... 07744?s=21

Our O Line is going to be solid this year, good in 21 and elite by 23. Not because of greatness by any one player, but because of excellence as a cohesive unit. This due to high level players with continuity of personnel coached by some of the best O line coaches in the business.

Who would those be?

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:59 am

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:12 am
Our O Line is going to be solid this year, good in 21 and elite by 23. Not because of greatness by any one player, but because of excellence as a cohesive unit. This due to high level players with continuity of personnel coached by some of the best O line coaches in the business.

Who would those be?

I'm not going to answer that. Ask your 5 year old niece. She will probably know the answer.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:22 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:59 am

Who would those be?

I'm not going to answer that. Ask your 5 year old niece. She will probably know the answer.

I just know you didn't mean the Oline coach that was the deal breaker in Denver when they wanted to bring back Kubiak, and who coached "up" our Oline most blame for the Vikings' failures last season, so I am curious who you are talking about?

Dennison coached the best center prospect in the 2019 NFL draft to be the worst graded full time starting pass blocking center in the NFL.

Kline and Elf had bad years with him as their coach and the only average to good Olineman on the team were ONeil and Reiff, two guys who were already average to good before he got here.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:37 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:22 pm
I'm not going to answer that. Ask your 5 year old niece. She will probably know the answer.

I just know you didn't mean the Oline coach that was the deal breaker in Denver when they wanted to bring back Kubiak, and who coached "up" our Oline most blame for the Vikings' failures last season, so I am curious who you are talking about?

Dennison coached the best center prospect in the 2019 NFL draft to be the worst graded full time starting pass blocking center in the NFL.

Kline and Elf had bad years with him as their coach and the only average to good Olineman on the team were ONeil and Reiff, two guys who were already average to good before he got here.

Dennison is a very good OL coach according to people who know OL coaches. I'm taking their word for it. I also consider Kubiak an OL coach and yes I know he's the head coach.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:49 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:37 pm

I just know you didn't mean the Oline coach that was the deal breaker in Denver when they wanted to bring back Kubiak, and who coached "up" our Oline most blame for the Vikings' failures last season, so I am curious who you are talking about?

Dennison coached the best center prospect in the 2019 NFL draft to be the worst graded full time starting pass blocking center in the NFL.

Kline and Elf had bad years with him as their coach and the only average to good Olineman on the team were ONeil and Reiff, two guys who were already average to good before he got here.

Dennison is a very good OL coach according to people who know OL coaches. I'm taking their word for it. I also consider Kubiak an OL coach and yes I know he's the head coach.

If Dennison is a very good offensive line coach then he would have the Vikings offensive line in the top 10 so I am not convinced that Dennison is a very good offensive line coach

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:41 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:49 pm
Dennison is a very good OL coach according to people who know OL coaches. I'm taking their word for it. I also consider Kubiak an OL coach and yes I know he's the head coach.

If Dennison is a very good offensive line coach then he would have the Vikings offensive line in the top 10 so I am not convinced that Dennison is a very good offensive line coach

Randy you seem to have difficulty with patience. Hasn't Denison only been here one year and didn't have very good OLs to work with. They are maturing and we added Cleveland to the mix. Give him three years to work with them and them to gel. They won't be top 10 they will be top 5.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:49 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:37 pm

I just know you didn't mean the Oline coach that was the deal breaker in Denver when they wanted to bring back Kubiak, and who coached "up" our Oline most blame for the Vikings' failures last season, so I am curious who you are talking about?

Dennison coached the best center prospect in the 2019 NFL draft to be the worst graded full time starting pass blocking center in the NFL.

Kline and Elf had bad years with him as their coach and the only average to good Olineman on the team were ONeil and Reiff, two guys who were already average to good before he got here.

Dennison is a very good OL coach according to people who know OL coaches. I'm taking their word for it. I also consider Kubiak an OL coach and yes I know he's the head coach.

What people are those?

Here is Dennison's resume:
Former LBer who became an offensive assistant coach to Kubiak because they were good buddies. He then went on to be a ST's coach for a couple of seasons (which makes a lot of sense for a former LBer), before taking over for 5 years as the Oline coach for the Broncos from 2001-2005. In the next 15 years he was an Oline coach for 3 seasons. In those 3 seasons his Olines were the 22nd, 22nd and 27th graded pass blocking unit.

Kubiak's Olines were pretty good in Houston for most of his time there, so maybe he does know how to coach up Oline. Dennison just appears to be a guy Kubiak likes and probably wouldn't be employed right now if it wasn't for Kubes.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:17 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:49 pm
Dennison is a very good OL coach according to people who know OL coaches. I'm taking their word for it. I also consider Kubiak an OL coach and yes I know he's the head coach.

What people are those?

Here is Dennison's resume:
Former LBer who became an offensive assistant coach to Kubiak because they were good buddies. He then went on to be a ST's coach for a couple of seasons (which makes a lot of sense for a former LBer), before taking over for 5 years as the Oline coach for the Broncos from 2001-2005. In the next 15 years he was an Oline coach for 3 seasons. In those 3 seasons his Olines were the 22nd, 22nd and 27th graded pass blocking unit.

Kubiak's Olines were pretty good in Houston for most of his time there, so maybe he does know how to coach up Oline. Dennison just appears to be a guy Kubiak likes and probably wouldn't be employed right now if it wasn't for Kubes.

Interesting. I believe I have heard from sources that Denison was good, but maybe my only source was Kubiak.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:01 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:17 pm

What people are those?

Here is Dennison's resume:
Former LBer who became an offensive assistant coach to Kubiak because they were good buddies. He then went on to be a ST's coach for a couple of seasons (which makes a lot of sense for a former LBer), before taking over for 5 years as the Oline coach for the Broncos from 2001-2005. In the next 15 years he was an Oline coach for 3 seasons. In those 3 seasons his Olines were the 22nd, 22nd and 27th graded pass blocking unit.

Kubiak's Olines were pretty good in Houston for most of his time there, so maybe he does know how to coach up Oline. Dennison just appears to be a guy Kubiak likes and probably wouldn't be employed right now if it wasn't for Kubes.

Interesting. I believe I have heard from sources that Denison was good, but maybe my only source was Kubiak.

Just to be clear, I don't think Dennison is necessarily a detriment to the Oline succeeding. Kubiak probably keeps him around because he does a good job relaying the scheme he wants to run. I just don't think Dennison is capable of developing Oline talent the way a Mike Munchak can. If he takes over coaching the 16th best Oline, they are probably going to stay 16th best. Not someone I personally want coaching the weakest unit on the team.

Another, more nefarious reason Kubiak keeps him around might be because he isn't a threat to replace him.