Who had the best draft class of 2019 in the NFC North?

[StumpHunter]

Very interesting. I wonder what he did to deserve the hate.

I never really understood it either. He is often praised by beat writers, media, etc but the fans cant stand him in Denver. Granted Denver's OL wasnt great this year by any means. They had a better OL than we did but nothing to write home about. Granted, they dont have much for young talent on that OL either in Dennison's defense. Outside of Paradis, their starters were a bunch of decent to washed up vets and Bolles who was awful this year. Leary landed on IR. Billy Turner is an absolute train wreck that somehow got paid in FA this year (luckily by the Packers). So again, in Dennison's defense, he didnt have much to work with. Here he has Bradbury, Elflein, O'Neill, Samia, etc. With a few vets like Kline and Reiff mixed in.

I am sure there are articles out there talking about Dennison being a good coach, he does keep getting hired for some reason. Although, without his connection to Kubiak I doubt he gets hired after failing with his 3rd team in a row.

Broncos fans hate him because his offenses were uninspired and he refused to innovate. He was basically Norv Turner but ten times worse. Even 2 years removed from him coaching there, they still hate him with a passion and that kind of vitriol is almost always earned.

Looking at his year in Buffalo we see a guy who's offense continued to suck.

Last year he coached the Jets line that was better than ours talent wise on the interior, but ended up being arguably worse at run blocking. 7th worst in total yards, they were not as good on YPA.

If he didn't have the connection to Kubiak, there is zero chance Spielman would look at his recent stints in NY, Buffalo, and Denver and think this is the guy he wants to improve his oline. It was just a bad hire.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I never really understood it either. He is often praised by beat writers, media, etc but the fans cant stand him in Denver. Granted Denver's OL wasnt great this year by any means. They had a better OL than we did but nothing to write home about. Granted, they dont have much for young talent on that OL either in Dennison's defense. Outside of Paradis, their starters were a bunch of decent to washed up vets and Bolles who was awful this year. Leary landed on IR. Billy Turner is an absolute train wreck that somehow got paid in FA this year (luckily by the Packers). So again, in Dennison's defense, he didnt have much to work with. Here he has Bradbury, Elflein, O'Neill, Samia, etc. With a few vets like Kline and Reiff mixed in.

I am sure there are articles out there talking about Dennison being a good coach, he does keep getting hired for some reason. Although, without his connection to Kubiak I doubt he gets hired after failing with his 3rd team in a row.

Broncos fans hate him because his offenses were uninspired and he refused to innovate. He was basically Norv Turner but ten times worse. Even 2 years removed from him coaching there, they still hate him with a passion and that kind of vitriol is almost always earned.

Looking at his year in Buffalo we see a guy who's offense continued to suck.

Last year he coached the Jets line that was better than ours talent wise on the interior, but ended up being arguably worse at run blocking. 7th worst in total yards, they were not as good on YPA.

If he didn't have the connection to Kubiak, there is zero chance Spielman would look at his recent stints in NY, Buffalo, and Denver and think this is the guy he wants to improve his oline. It was just a bad hire.

I hear ya but I mean in all honesty, the Jets and Bills offense has sucked for the last 10 years. They havent been able to find a QB, WRs, RBs, etc. Buffalo has been hanging onto McCoy for what seems like forever at this point because he was their only shining star. I mean you could put top offensive coordinators in the NFL into the Jets or Bills offense in the last 10 years and they would do very little with them guaranteed. They are just historically bad offenses. Miami is another one. Those teams couldnt get out of their own way.

And correction on my above post, I'm not sure why I was thinking he was the OL coach for Denver last year. Like you mentioned, he was at the Jets last year.

FWIW, Dennison was the OC in Houston when they were good in 2011 and 2012. And the OC in Denver when they won the Super Bowl. But we're hanging Dennison's hat on being the OC for the Bills for 1 season (the same season Buffalo made the playoffs since 1999) and the offensive line coach of the Jets for one season?? Sounds a little unfair if you ask me. The guy has a lot more good history than bad when you actually look into it.

[StumpHunter]

I am sure there are articles out there talking about Dennison being a good coach, he does keep getting hired for some reason. Although, without his connection to Kubiak I doubt he gets hired after failing with his 3rd team in a row.

Broncos fans hate him because his offenses were uninspired and he refused to innovate. He was basically Norv Turner but ten times worse. Even 2 years removed from him coaching there, they still hate him with a passion and that kind of vitriol is almost always earned.

Looking at his year in Buffalo we see a guy who's offense continued to suck.

Last year he coached the Jets line that was better than ours talent wise on the interior, but ended up being arguably worse at run blocking. 7th worst in total yards, they were not as good on YPA.

If he didn't have the connection to Kubiak, there is zero chance Spielman would look at his recent stints in NY, Buffalo, and Denver and think this is the guy he wants to improve his oline. It was just a bad hire.

I hear ya but I mean in all honesty, the Jets and Bills offense has sucked for the last 10 years. They havent been able to find a QB, WRs, RBs, etc. Buffalo has been hanging onto McCoy for what seems like forever at this point because he was their only shining star. I mean you could put top offensive coordinators in the NFL into the Jets or Bills offense in the last 10 years and they would do very little with them guaranteed. They are just historically bad offenses. Miami is another one. Those teams couldnt get out of their own way.

And correction on my above post, I'm not sure why I was thinking he was the OL coach for Denver last year. Like you mentioned, he was at the Jets last year.

FWIW, Dennison was the OC in Houston when they were good in 2011 and 2012. And the OC in Denver when they won the Super Bowl. But we're hanging Dennison's hat on being the OC for the Bills for 1 season (the same season Buffalo made the playoffs since 1999) and the offensive line coach of the Jets for one season?? Sounds a little unfair if you ask me. The guy has a lot more good history than bad when you actually look into it.

In 2010, Houston was 4th in scoring efficiencies, up from 11th the previous year so that is a positive sign. In 2011 they moved to 10th, in 2012, 13th and in 2013 31st.

In Denver, he had the 24th and 25th best scoring offense in the NFL and the defense won the Broncos a SB.

In fairness, in 2014 he was the QB coach for Joe Flaccos best year as a pro, but that isn't what he is doing here. He also has not had a lot to work with anywhere he has been OC since 2012.

Failing with bad players is still failing though.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I hear ya but I mean in all honesty, the Jets and Bills offense has sucked for the last 10 years. They havent been able to find a QB, WRs, RBs, etc. Buffalo has been hanging onto McCoy for what seems like forever at this point because he was their only shining star. I mean you could put top offensive coordinators in the NFL into the Jets or Bills offense in the last 10 years and they would do very little with them guaranteed. They are just historically bad offenses. Miami is another one. Those teams couldnt get out of their own way.

And correction on my above post, I'm not sure why I was thinking he was the OL coach for Denver last year. Like you mentioned, he was at the Jets last year.

FWIW, Dennison was the OC in Houston when they were good in 2011 and 2012. And the OC in Denver when they won the Super Bowl. But we're hanging Dennison's hat on being the OC for the Bills for 1 season (the same season Buffalo made the playoffs since 1999) and the offensive line coach of the Jets for one season?? Sounds a little unfair if you ask me. The guy has a lot more good history than bad when you actually look into it.

In 2010, Houston was 4th in scoring efficiencies, up from 11th the previous year so that is a positive sign. In 2011 they moved to 10th, in 2012, 13th and in 2013 31st.

In Denver, he had the 24th and 25th best scoring offense in the NFL and the defense won the Broncos a SB.

In fairness, in 2014 he was the QB coach for Joe Flaccos best year as a pro, but that isn't what he is doing here. He also has not had a lot to work with anywhere he has been OC since 2012.

Failing with bad players is still failing though.

True but at the same time, I dont think I could call it a "bad hire". Like someone like Adam Gase is a bad hire for the Jets. He was literally in their division and they saw just how dysfunctional and bad Miami was. Peyton Manning is the only reason Adam Gase is relevant. And these teams continue to hire this guy. Blows my mind. Dennison has had some success and some failure to be fair. Adam Gase is a failure in all aspects if you ask me. Dennison is more of a "to be determined" type hire. He's definitely had success in this league though

[StumpHunter]

In 2010, Houston was 4th in scoring efficiencies, up from 11th the previous year so that is a positive sign. In 2011 they moved to 10th, in 2012, 13th and in 2013 31st.

In Denver, he had the 24th and 25th best scoring offense in the NFL and the defense won the Broncos a SB.

In fairness, in 2014 he was the QB coach for Joe Flaccos best year as a pro, but that isn't what he is doing here. He also has not had a lot to work with anywhere he has been OC since 2012.

Failing with bad players is still failing though.

True but at the same time, I dont think I could call it a "bad hire". Like someone like Adam Gase is a bad hire for the Jets. He was literally in their division and they saw just how dysfunctional and bad Miami was. Peyton Manning is the only reason Adam Gase is relevant. And these teams continue to hire this guy. Blows my mind. Dennison has had some success and some failure to be fair. Adam Gase is a failure in all aspects if you ask me. Dennison is more of a "to be determined" type hire. He's definitely had success in this league though

He is a bad hire because the Vikings didn't hire him because they thought he was the best coach to make the offensive line better. He was hired because he was one of Kubiak's flunkies. If he were coaching the WRs I wouldn't care about the reason he was hired, but with him coaching the weakest spot on the team, I want someone who was hired because he was a great offensive line coach. That is what we needed, and that is not what we got.

[Pondering Her Percy]

True but at the same time, I dont think I could call it a "bad hire". Like someone like Adam Gase is a bad hire for the Jets. He was literally in their division and they saw just how dysfunctional and bad Miami was. Peyton Manning is the only reason Adam Gase is relevant. And these teams continue to hire this guy. Blows my mind. Dennison has had some success and some failure to be fair. Adam Gase is a failure in all aspects if you ask me. Dennison is more of a "to be determined" type hire. He's definitely had success in this league though

He is a bad hire because the Vikings didn't hire him because they thought he was the best coach to make the offensive line better. He was hired because he was one of Kubiak's flunkies. If he were coaching the WRs I wouldn't care about the reason he was hired, but with him coaching the weakest spot on the team, I want someone who was hired because he was a great offensive line coach. That is what we needed, and that is not what we got.

It's not like there are great offensive line coaches just sitting out there up for grabs. And you're saying that he isnt a good offensive line coach based off of what? 1 season at the NYJ out of all teams? He's been an OL coach from 01-05 in Denver and again in 09. And then not again until last year with the Jets. During his years in Denver they were 58-38 overall and were top 5 in rushing offense in 02, 03, 04 and 05. I guess I dont get what you're basing your judgement off of

[StumpHunter]

He is a bad hire because the Vikings didn't hire him because they thought he was the best coach to make the offensive line better. He was hired because he was one of Kubiak's flunkies. If he were coaching the WRs I wouldn't care about the reason he was hired, but with him coaching the weakest spot on the team, I want someone who was hired because he was a great offensive line coach. That is what we needed, and that is not what we got.

It's not like there are great offensive line coaches just sitting out there up for grabs. And you're saying that he isnt a good offensive line coach based off of what? 1 season at the NYJ out of all teams? He's been an OL coach from 01-05 in Denver and again in 09. And then not again until last year with the Jets. During his years in Denver they were 58-38 overall and were top 5 in rushing offense in 02, 03, 04 and 05. I guess I dont get what you're basing your judgement off of

No. I am basing it off of that same Denver Bronco organization not going with their first choice at OC to avoid hiring Dennison as an offensive line coach AND the fact the last time he tried his hand at improving a bad oline, just last year, he failed.

[Pondering Her Percy]

It's not like there are great offensive line coaches just sitting out there up for grabs. And you're saying that he isnt a good offensive line coach based off of what? 1 season at the NYJ out of all teams? He's been an OL coach from 01-05 in Denver and again in 09. And then not again until last year with the Jets. During his years in Denver they were 58-38 overall and were top 5 in rushing offense in 02, 03, 04 and 05. I guess I dont get what you're basing your judgement off of

No. I am basing it off of that same Denver Bronco organization not going with their first choice at OC to avoid hiring Dennison as an offensive line coach AND the fact the last time he tried his hand at improving a bad oline, just last year, he failed.

Well you need players worth a damn to improve an OL. How many good OLs out there are made up of no-names? None. You don’t just fix an OL in one year. You should know that given how our OL has been. So like I said before, judging him off one year in NY is pretty unfair if you ask me

And Kubiak had to get out of coaching due to health concerns. He wanted out. But when this year rolled around he said he missed coaching too much to pass up Vikings offer. He had an opportunity to go back to Denver but if you’re Kubiak and you can go back to Denver and go to Minnesota, what do you pick? It’s a no brainer. They could have also had other coaches in mind for their OL and that’s why they didn’t want Dennison. But either way, it’s not like Denver’s OL coach improved their OL recently. So who made the wrong decision? Either way, you don’t know what happened behind closed doors and what the real reasons were. And our offense has a plethora of talent compared to Denver’s. Denver had no long term QB, RB question marks, deteriorating WRs, no TE and an average OL at best.

[halfgiz]

It's not like there are great offensive line coaches just sitting out there up for grabs. And you're saying that he isnt a good offensive line coach based off of what? 1 season at the NYJ out of all teams? He's been an OL coach from 01-05 in Denver and again in 09. And then not again until last year with the Jets. During his years in Denver they were 58-38 overall and were top 5 in rushing offense in 02, 03, 04 and 05. I guess I dont get what you're basing your judgement off of

No. I am basing it off of that same Denver Bronco organization not going with their first choice at OC to avoid hiring Dennison as an offensive line coach AND the fact the last time he tried his hand at improving a bad oline, just last year, he failed.

Wade Phillips and his Defenses also adds into that record.

[Pondering Her Percy]

No. I am basing it off of that same Denver Bronco organization not going with their first choice at OC to avoid hiring Dennison as an offensive line coach AND the fact the last time he tried his hand at improving a bad oline, just last year, he failed.

Wade Phillips and his Defenses also adds into that record.

Wade Phillips had nothing to do with the broncos during the years I was referring to with Dennison.

[Raptorman]

Willians started 5 games that year. 2 during the season and 3 playoff games. The fact of the matter is, Williams was a backup QB at the time.

But I guess that doesn't matter.

Everybody knows he was a backup. Even he was shocked that Gibbs called him up to play. He even knew he was finished. The guy never was that good regardless of some thoughts here. He was a bum that nobody wanted but Gibbs. But Gibbs knew he could win by pounding the rock down teams throats.

What you list of "Bum" QB's really reveals is that if you have "Bum" QB but a defense that only gives up so many points per game you can still win the Super Bowl. Proving once again, it's not the QB that wins the games.

[StumpHunter]

Everybody knows he was a backup. Even he was shocked that Gibbs called him up to play. He even knew he was finished. The guy never was that good regardless of some thoughts here. He was a bum that nobody wanted but Gibbs. But Gibbs knew he could win by pounding the rock down teams throats.

What you list of "Bum" QB's really reveals is that if you have "Bum" QB but a defense that only gives up so many points per game you can still win the Super Bowl. Proving once again, it's not the QB that wins the games.

Nothing like using the exception to prove the rule.

[Pondering Her Percy]

What you list of "Bum" QB's really reveals is that if you have "Bum" QB but a defense that only gives up so many points per game you can still win the Super Bowl. Proving once again, it's not the QB that wins the games.

Nothing like using the exception to prove the rule.

There have been quite a few bum QBs to win a SB or just make a SB in general. Not sure why you think there is just the one exception.

[StumpHunter]

Nothing like using the exception to prove the rule.

There have been quite a few bum QBs to win a SB or just make a SB in general. Not sure why you think there is just the one exception.

Hey look, PHP is creating a straw man argument again. Shocking.

Yes, there have been multiple mediocre QBs who have won SBs. The majority of SB winning QBs have been great. Hence the using the exception to prove the rule.

Since Mark Rypien won the Super Bowl in 1991, 21 of the 27 Super Bowl winning QBs are/will be HOF QBs. Maybe 23 if Eli sneaks in.

The vast majority of SBs are won by great QBs with a great team around them. You can hope your above average QB catches lighting in a bottle and plays out of his mind in the playoffs like Foles, Flacco and Eli did, or you can hope for a bunch of HOFers on defense and win with a Trent Dilfer or Johnson, but the most consistent way to win a SB is with a great QB...who isn't making 10+% of the salary cap. Even with a great QB, you need cap to build a great team, no argument from me there.

[J. Kapp 11]

There have been quite a few bum QBs to win a SB or just make a SB in general. Not sure why you think there is just the one exception.

Hey look, PHP is creating a straw man argument again. Shocking.

Yes, there have been multiple mediocre QBs who have won SBs. The majority of SB winning QBs have been great. Hence the using the exception to prove the rule.

Since Mark Rypien won the Super Bowl in 1991, 21 of the 27 Super Bowl winning QBs are/will be HOF QBs. Maybe 23 if Eli sneaks in.

The vast majority of SBs are won by great QBs with a great team around them. You can hope your above average QB catches lighting in a bottle and plays out of his mind in the playoffs like Foles, Flacco and Eli did, or you can hope for a bunch of HOFers on defense and win with a Trent Dilfer or Johnson, but the most consistent way to win a SB is with a great QB...who isn't making 10+% of the salary cap. Even with a great QB, you need cap to build a great team, no argument from me there.

Interesting.

You just named 5 run-of-the-mill QBs who have won Super Bowls since 2000.

And by the way, Peyton Manning was a dumpster fire the year he won a title with the Broncos, so I don't think it's fair to count that year as a "HOFer wins the Bowl" year. And six of those Super Bowl titles have gone to one guy, Tom Brady.

I'm not disagreeing that having a great quarterback is a major plus when you're trying to win a Super Bowl. And I don't think it's ever appropriate to use the exception as the rule. But to me, the exception isn't as rare as perhaps you're making it out to be. If it's 21 of 27 (which again, given how bad Manning was, I disagree with that number) that's still 25%. As an effective number, I'd say that in the time period you're talking about, "average QB wins Super Bowl" applies more like a third of the time. Again, I'm taking into account Manning's terrible season, as well as Ben Roethlisberger's slightly better than average play as a 2nd-year QB when he won his first Super Bowl in 2006.

There's another factor at play here, which truly IS the exception, and that's Brady's willingness to play for less money and incentive-laden contracts. He's been taking hometown discounts for the past 7 years, which allows the Patriots to spread the cap to more players. It certainly doesn't hurt that he's a) making a fortune off the field as the most marketable player in the NFL, and b) happily married to a supermodel whose net worth is more than double his. In other words, money is not a concern for Tom Brady, which allows him to take $10 million or more per year less than he could get if he pressed for the highest salary possible. The question for me is, if Brady had insisted upon maxing out his deals, would the Patriots have won 6 Super Bowls? Impossible to know the answer to that, but I think the odds would have been reduced over the past 3.

Here's something else interesting. The "average QB wins Super Bowl" factor is even LESS frequent in the Super Bowl's early history. Look at the guys who won the first 25-ish SBs. Bart Starr, Namath, Len Dawson, Bob Griese, Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, Steve Young, Troy Aikman -- these are all Hall of Famers. Even an aging Johny Unitas won a Super Bowl. Jim Plunkett, Doug Williams and Jeff Hostetler truly were the exception in those days.

All in all, it's not impossible to win a Super Bowl without a Hall-of-Fame quarterback ... but it sure ups your odds if you have one.