Zimmer: Teddy Bridgewater needs to refine mechanics

[mansquatch]

I agree, I wasn't tossing out your argument, sorry if it sounded that way. Just commenting on, basically what you explained, that its such an inexact resource that it can be used to make any player sound great or bad IE; Kalil made these three key blocks that won use these 2 games, Peterson made these 3 bad reads that cost us this game, etc, etc.

There is definitely a danger in specificity when using the concept. However, I think the idea makes a lot of sense. My view is more we were a "few plays" shy of winning those games. We missed a field goal, or Kalil didn't block Freeney weel, or whatever. I'd prefer that those things didn't happen, but the fact is the NFL is full of competitors and thus the other team is going to make plays also. The point is more that we needed to make 3-4 more plays. Without repeating myself too much, I think the key point for this thread is the fact that relative to the rest of the team, the passing game contributed FEWER overall positive plays than the rest of the squad. Therefore it is a fair conclusion to think that there is GREATER opportunity in that area of the team to find those 3-4 more plays.

From what I posted earlier, I think simply getting Loadholt back will add 3-4 more positive plays. Not that he is some other worldly player at RT, but that Clemmings was put into his role probably 2-3 years too early. He hadn't developed NFL technique, instincts, or muscle mass and thus we had a revolving door at RT for most of the season. Getting our starter back there will produce very positive changes. I doubt it will double Teddy's passing TDs, but I bet it will add a few to the list simple on account of there being fewer blown protections and thus more oppportunities.

[losperros]

Culpepper also had Moss and Carter as receivers and an offensive line that gave him time.

Don't forget Moss and Carter and the offensive line had Culpepper. It goes both ways.

Daunte had a big arm, accuracy, and great mobility.

[chicagopurple]

Culpepper was a NFL QB and a good one....strong, accurate, and a running threat.....Teddy has yet to prove any of those traits.
I would be very interested to compare their 2nd year stats.....

[fiestavike]

I would be very interested to compare their 2nd year stats.....

Yeah, I think they'd be really valuable and tell you a lot about Culpepper and Teddy as players. I'd like to see those stats too. I also wonder how they'd stack up to Tim Duncan's 2nd year stats.

[Purple bruise]

Culpepper was a NFL QB and a good one....strong, accurate, and a running threat.....Teddy has yet to prove any of those traits.
I would be very interested to compare their 2nd year stats.....

Again, how to compare stats when Pep had Moss Carter and a very good offensive line to TB with a terrible line and very average receivers. As a side note, look at Pep's stats his last year, with the Vikes, before his season ending knee injury. He SUCKED with lots of ints few tds and several fumbles.

[IrishViking]

Culpepper was a NFL QB and a good one....strong, accurate, and a running threat.....Teddy has yet to prove any of those traits.
I would be very interested to compare their 2nd year stats.....

Assume you aren't trying to trap someone in semantics...


In Culpeppers Second Season as a STARTER he played 11 games; He had 14 TDs and 13 INT. He hit on 5 passes of 40 or more yards, he had 2600ish total yards and average 7.1 YPC

Teddy and Culpepper posted near identical YPA their second starting year and completion percentages.

[Mothman]

Don't forget Moss and Carter and the offensive line had Culpepper. It goes both ways.

Indeed... and that line wasn't so great at giving him time as his career in Minnesota progressed. He had to make use of the mobility you mentioned below often.

Daunte had a big arm, accuracy, and great mobility.

Yes, he did! he was a very different player from Bridgewater. I'd argue that he was actually more accurate with the football. He definitely had a much better arm and deep ball (man, could he throw the deep ball... and not just to Moss). On the other hand, Bridgewater takes better care of the ball than Daunte did during the majority of his career. Of course, much less is asked of him too. Green left the cupboard bare on defense at the end of his tenure and Culpepper and the offense were asked to carry the load for years. If the Vikes had the kind of defense Zimmer has put together in 2004, they might have gone far...

[fiestavike]

If the Vikes had the kind of defense Zimmer has put together in 2004, they might have gone far...

Thats be a safe bet. That would have the makings of one heck of a team!

[IrishViking]

Indeed... and that line wasn't so great at giving him time as his career in Minnesota progressed. He had to make use of the mobility you mentioned below often.
Yes, he did! he was a very different player from Bridgewater. I'd argue that he was actually more accurate with the football. He definitely had a much better arm and deep ball (man, could he throw the deep ball... and not just to Moss). On the other hand, Bridgewater takes better care of the ball than Daunte did during the majority of his career. Of course, much less is asked of him too. Green left the cupboard bare on defense at the end of his tenure and Culpepper and the offense were asked to carry the load for years. If the Vikes had the kind of defense Zimmer has put together in 2004, they might have gone far...

Culpepper has exactly one season with a completion percentage better or equal to Teddy's, his Insane 2004 year. Culpepper also doesn't have a year with a better interception ratio than Teddy had this year. He MATCHED it in 2004.

I am not saying that Prime Daunte isn't far better than anything we have seen from Teddy yet. But there is nothing to support him being more accurate than him.

[Mothman]

Culpepper has exactly one season with a completion percentage better or equal to Teddy's, his Insane 2004 year.

Culpepper also doesn't have a year with a better interception ratio than Teddy had this year. He MATCHED it in 2004.

As I said, Bridgewater takes better care of the ball.

I am not saying that Prime Daunte isn't far better than anything we have seen from Teddy yet. But there is nothing to support him being more accurate than him.

Sure there is.... lots and lots of game tape. Completion percentage is not the same as accuracy. There's no stat for the latter but I saw the vast majority of Culpepper's games as a Viking and I've seen all of Bridgewater's and personally, I have no doubt Culpepper was the more accurate passer, particularly because he had good downfield accuracy as well as good short range accuracy.

I'm not sure there's much point in comparing the two anyway. The comparison came up because mosscarter said Culpepper had twice the arm Bridgewater has and while I don't know if that's accurate, he certainly had a better arm.

[IrishViking]

As I said, Bridgewater takes better care of the ball.
Sure there is.... lots and lots of game tape. Completion percentage is not the same as accuracy. There's no stat for the latter but I saw the vast majority of Culpepper's games as a Viking and I've seen all of Bridgewater's and personally, I have no doubt Culpepper was the more accurate passer, particularly because he had good downfield accuracy as well as good short range accuracy.

I'm not sure there's much point in comparing the two anyway. The comparison came up because mosscarter said Culpepper had twice the arm Bridgewater has and while I don't know if that's accurate, he certainly had a better arm.

The closest stats you can get to to measuring accuracy say He isn't as accurate. I am not even arguing against Dante being better, simply that out of all the stats he IS better in and the stats support it, it is odd to go after the one that isn't supported by the evidence

[fiestavike]

The closest stats you can get to to measuring accuracy say He isn't as accurate. I am not even arguing against Dante being better, simply that out of all the stats he IS better in and the stats support it, it is odd to go after the one that isn't supported by the evidence

But its evidence of such a useless nature that it isn't helpful or informative. And I'm saying that as someone who isn't sure Daunte was more accurate. There are a number of very significant factors operating in Dante's favor from a game tape and a statistical perspective. The question is just whether Teddy is/can be accurate enough to succeed, which means, performs well enough to be part of an excellent offensive unit. I am convinced from what I've seen that he certainly can.

[Mothman]

The closest stats you can get to to measuring accuracy say He isn't as accurate.

But since those stats aren't a measure of accuracy, that's immaterial.

I am not even arguing against Dante being better, simply that out of all the stats he IS better in and the stats support it, it is odd to go after the one that isn't supported by the evidence

I didn't think I was "going after" anything, just making an observation and as I said, I believe that observation IS supported by the evidence, just not statistical evidence (because they don't keep stats for accuracy).

[Mothman]

But its evidence of such a useless nature that it isn't helpful or informative. And I'm saying that as someone who isn't sure Daunte was more accurate. There are a number of very significant factors operating in Dante's favor from a game tape and a statistical perspective. The question is just whether Teddy is/can be accurate enough to succeed, which means, performs well enough to be part of an excellent offensive unit. I am convinced from what I've seen that he certainly can.

Exactly. It's how good he can be that really matters now.

[mondry]

TB had 14TD in 2014 and 14TD in 2015 despite 3 more games played. That is the stat that needs to get better.


TB needs to get better at scoring in the passing game which means being a better red zone passer.

While that's true, Norv needs to be willing to push the ball into the end zone when we're there. It's been practically a death sentence for our offense to get a first down between the 9-12 yard line, where you're not likely to pick up another first down without actually scoring the touch down. I don't agree with a conservative strategy to guarantee the field goal. If it's 1st and goal from the 9 yard line I'd rather see 3 throws into the end zone rather than a run or two to try and get closer (why would you need to get closer from there?!) Then it usually becomes 3rd and goal from the 6 or so where a short pass is attempted that needs to pick up YAC yards to sniff the end zone.

The most glaring game was against the Seahawks in the playoffs, Norv was way too conservative in the red zone all year but especially in that game, it's not all on Teddy to make TD's happen out of nothing. If we were 1st and goal from the 8 and we throw it 3 times into the end zone and Teddy is not able to get it done then that's one thing but that's simply not the case.

Keep in mind we also scored something like 15 rushing touch downs, 2 of which Teddy was responsible for. Every rushing TD is one less passing TD you can earn.

- Wright's production dropped between 2014 and 2015. Particularly notable is the drop in YAC. He went from 7.9 YAC/reception in 2015 to 5.1 in 2016. Same QB, same offensive coordinator. That is worrying to me.
- Johnson's production in 2014 wouldn't have made the top 4 receivers in 2015, although his average of 15.3 yards/catch was better than any Vikings WR in 2015. Still, not great stats for a guy who was the putative #2 receiver for an entire season.

In looking at how things evolved at WR between 2014 and 2015, it sure continues to look to me like the talent WR is a significant part of the passing game production problem. The Vikings got Rudolph back in 2015 and he rapidly became the team's second best receiver. Diggs, a 5th round pick who didn't start at the beginning of the season, easily became it's best receiver. Wright, the #2 guy in 2014, slipped to #3 in 2015. Patterson apparently was so bad he never really saw the field beyond kick returns.

I hope Spielman continues to look for opportunities to upgrade the WR position. Wallace really was not that good. Johnson isn't either despite his high average in 2014. This is definitely an area where a significant upgrade could do wonders for Bridgewater's development IMHO.

Wright's production in YAC can easily be explained by the changes in the offense due to getting Peterson back and running more "power running" type sets that either take the slot WR off the field or only typically get used in obvious passing situations. Last year we passed more on first and second down and that is going to be a better situation to pick up YAC.

The WR's often struggled to get open so I agree that talent there is part of the problem but I would rank them as a unit (including rudolph, mckinnon, etc) maybe 4th on our "list of biggest problems" right now. The reality is despite the abundance of speed these guys where not much of a threat in the vertical passing game but were much more effective in the crossing / horizontal passing game able to pick up tons of YAC against ARI and CHI. The line simply didn't protect consistently well enough to support a deep passing game, nor was Teddy very effective (this year) on those plays.

I think everything around them can improve from the O-line to Norv and Teddy's aggressiveness, to not being so run heavy / predictable, etc that would all help them be more productive.