Vikings Message Board.Com

dead_poet wrote:Xavier Rhodes -- I don't think he was flagged once.

I recall 1 holding penalty.

Mothman wrote: So why keep running so many of those plays? Turner's version of the "Air Coryell" offense certainly doesn't need to be run from the shotgun so the idea that Peterson doesn't fit the offense doesn't add up. What he doesn't do is run very well from the shotgun, which shouldn't be a big surprise since it's primarily a passing formation. Most of the running plays they try from it deprive him of moemnetum and since the run blocking isn't exactly great, he tends to need that momentum to break tackles because he's often being met in the backfield or at the line.

I don't think he looks lost in the shotgun, he's simply less effective because the level of execution required to make him effective from that formation isn't there.

So why do the Vikings need to use the shotgun so much?
Indeed it does. Turner is still trying to pound square pegs into round holes.

It was pretty darn obvious in the Vikings two most decisive wins this year that Peterson can fit quite well into this offense. He's not the problem. The problem is that opponents know he's still the biggest threat the Vikes have to beat them so defenses key on him and challenge the Vikes to beat them through the air. Through 5 games, their offense has produced just 3 passing TDs so that's a pretty good defensive strategy. Fortunately, on Sunday, the Vikes defense only allowed 10 points and they won anyway.

The reasons for running shotgun plays seems pretty obvious. We have a poorly performing offensive line, a young QB, and need to get the ball out quick. It would be a lot more effective if we could produce rushing yards out of the same formation. I can only imagine the howls we'd be hearing about Norv if Teddy was taking all his snaps under center and getting sacked 10 times a game!

As far as running out of the shotgun, they pretty much abandoned it after Peterson kept blowing it in the first half, totaling 4 carries out of the shotgun for a total of -12 yards. That likely contributed to some difficulties moving the ball in the 2nd half by making the team more one dimensional.

Without those carries Peterson has 22 carries for 72 yards, and a much more respectable YPC average.

All of the above though, is really just a silly waste of time, because its obvious to anyone watching that Peterson is not good at running out of that formation.

S197 wrote: I recall 1 holding penalty.

I think you're right, but it was declined.

VikingLord wrote:What did you see that suggests the play calling caused the lack of production?

On Sunday, it was adjustments.

The Vikings moved the ball at will in the first half. They botched up in the red zone 2 of 3 times, which was the only reason they weren't leading 21-0 instead of 10-0, but I can't really fault the OC for the Vikings' lack of red zone execution. Bottom line: They DID move the ball very effectively throughout the first half, and I have to give the OC a fair share of the credit there.

Then all of a sudden in the second half, the Vikings couldn't get a first down. The Chiefs completely shut them down for the entire third quarter, and the Vikings were only marginally better in the fourth. The defense was still playing stellar football ... UNTIL the Vikings' offense had suffered through a bunch of 3-and-outs, leaving the defense on the field forever. For whatever reason, AP couldn't gain a yard, and Teddy couldn't find an open receiver. The offense just stalled.

If I'm going to give the OC his fair share of the credit for a mostly efficient offense in the first half, then it's only fair to give him a fair share of the blame for the ineffectiveness in the second. It looks to me like the Chiefs out-adjusted Turner. As always, I could be wrong, but that's my rationale.

fiestavike wrote:The reasons for running shotgun plays seems pretty obvious. We have a poorly performing offensive line, a young QB, and need to get the ball out quick. It would be a lot more effective if we could produce rushing yards out of the same formation. I can only imagine the howls we'd be hearing about Norv if Teddy was taking all his snaps under center and getting sacked 10 times a game!

As far as running out of the shotgun, they pretty much abandoned it after Peterson kept blowing it in the first half, totaling 4 carries out of the shotgun for a total of -12 yards.

So it was Peterson that was blowing those plays, eh? You did see that he was hit behind the line of scrimmage on more than half of his first-half carries, right?

They're trying to run block out of a passing formation with the defense still keying on their RB because they don't fear the passing game. It shouldn't surprise anyone that it's not working but the solution shouldn't be to bench/trade the best player on the offense and build it around the shotgun and one of the league's least effective passing games.

Mothman wrote: So it was Peterson that was blowing those plays, eh? You did see that he was hit behind the line of scrimmage on more than half of his first-half carries, right?

They're trying to run block out of a passing formation with the defense still keying on their RB because they don't fear the passing game. It shouldn't surprise anyone that it's not working but the solution shouldn't be to bench/trade the best player on the offense and build it around the shotgun and one of the league's least effective passing games.

Yes, I'm pretty sure it was his fault AT LEAST that he turned around, ran backwards, and lost 12 yards. Do you think its a coincidence that they didn't hand him the ball out of the shotgun 1 team after the first quarter?

On the season he has 21 carries from the shotgun for 30 yards.

He is still averaging over 5 yards a carry from under center despite defenses keying on him and not respecting the passing game.

Watch him. He doesn't know what he's doing when he takes a hand off out of the shotgun. He has basically acknowledged as much.

dead_poet wrote:

Nice to see Floyd getting recognition. I thought he kicked butt against the Chiefs.

Floyd always gets good penetration. He did the same for the Gators in college ball.

fiestavike wrote:Yes, I'm pretty sure it was his fault AT LEAST that he turned around, ran backwards, and lost 12 yards.

It was six yards and he made the choice after being met by defenders in the backfield... again. This is what he was facing after getting the handoff:



He tried to make something out of nothing and ended up losing more yardage.

You can't expect a running back to be productive if the blocking in front of him is ineffective.

Do you think its a coincidence that they didn't hand him the ball out of the shotgun 1 team after the first quarter?

Of course not.

Mothman wrote: It was six yards and he made the choice after being met by defenders in the backfield... again. This is what he was facing after getting the handoff:



He tried to make something out of nothing and ended up losing more yardage.

You can't expect a running back to be productive if the blocking in front of him is ineffective.
Of course not.

I see three blockers engaged and three that have already lost their block and Peterson isn't even to the LOS. Nothing wrong with Peterson. Something wrong with the blockers. It would be interesting to see if it the same guys losing the battle every time or are they rotating the the losing battles to the whole O-line?

Raptorman wrote:I see three blockers engaged and three that have already lost their block and Peterson isn't even to the LOS. Nothing wrong with Peterson. Something wrong with the blockers. It would be interesting to see if it the same guys losing the battle every time or are they rotating the the losing battles to the whole O-line?

I think they've been mixing it up quite a bit to keep it interesting for us fans at home.

Seriously, I'm not sure. My impression is that Kalil is playing more consistently than the others but there seem to be breakdowns all along the line. The right side and center seem more problematic than the left but Fusco has definitely struggled too.

There is plenty of blame to go around, but Berger is emerging as the candidate for biggest liability so far this season. I think that is part of why they traded Hodges for Easton, they recognized that there is no depth at Center behind Sullivan. Hopefully we can get Sullivan back and still have a chance and competing for a playoff spot. Yet another reason why winning the next few winnable games is very important.

I expect that in the upcoming draft they will invest at least 1 pick in the first 3 rounds in OL, possibly two. The two new guys on the right side might yet grow into the job, but at 6 games in they are obviously not yet up to the task.

I've think Harris has played at least decently, but I hunk it would make a lot of sense for the Vikings to find a serious LG and move Fusco back over to RG. With Kalil playing well and (hopefully) the return of Loadholt and Sullivan, that would give us a formidable O line (with solid depth behind it).

EDIT: I'm referring to next year, of course.

Mothman wrote: I think they've been mixing it up quite a bit to keep it interesting for us fans at home.

Seriously, I'm not sure. My impression is that Kalil is playing more consistently than the others but there seem to be breakdowns all along the line. The right side and center seem more problematic than the left but Fusco has definitely struggled too.

What's the deal? Why can't this team block? They aren't that great at pass blocking and the OL couldn't help AD much either. What's more, special teams coach Mike Priefer noted that the wall blocking hasn't been good on kick returns this year. I can't see the entire field on TV during kick returns but from what I have been able to see, I think he's right.

I realize the OL has injury bug issues and thin depth but blocking is a basic fundamental. It's also a weakness on the Vikings team.

The best blocking I've seen so far this season came from the defense when they surrounded Chad Greenway on his INT return for a TD.

losperros wrote:Nice to see Floyd getting recognition. I thought he kicked butt against the Chiefs.

I thought so too. He and Joseph are really playing well on the interior of the DL.

losperros wrote:What's the deal? Why can't this team block? They aren't that great at pass blocking and the OL couldn't help AD much either. What's more, special teams coach Mike Priefer noted that the wall blocking hasn't been good on kick returns this year. I can't see the entire field on TV during kick returns but from what I have been able to see, I think he's right.

I realize the OL has injury bug issues and thin depth but blocking is a basic fundamental. It's also a weakness on the Vikings team.

I wish I had the answer because the problem sure is definitely frustrating. As you said, blocking is a basic football fundamental, like tackling. Whatever the problem is, they really need to get a handle on it.

The best blocking I've seen so far this season came from the defense when they surrounded Chad Greenway on his INT return for a TD.

As far as running out of the shotgun, they pretty much abandoned it after Peterson kept blowing it in the first half, totaling 4 carries out of the shotgun for a total of -12 yards. That likely contributed to some difficulties moving the ball in the 2nd half by making the team more one dimensional.

On the season he has 21 carries from the shotgun for 30 yards.

You can't expect a running back to be productive if the blocking in front of him is ineffective.

I see three blockers engaged and three that have already lost their block and Peterson isn't even to the LOS. Nothing wrong with Peterson. Something wrong with the blockers.

What's the deal? Why can't this team block?

My observations of the Vikings offensive issues:

1. Contrary to popular belief, TB prefers the shotgun where he can keep an eye on the defense as the play develops.
2. AD prefers TB under center where AD can observe the D before he gets the ball and has a better idea of where he needs go or how to approach the LOS.
3. If TB is under center on a pass play it is most likely a fake handoff
4. If AD is handed the ball from the shotgun, he doesn't see the D before he gets the ball and when he is able to look at the D he is almost to the line of scrimmage ... too late to make any adjustments.

Check out the 6 highlight plays for Diggs. 5 are from the shotgun, the 6th from under center with a fake handoff to AD. http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/vide ... c5b91d622f

Also, the two interceptions against the Chiefs - TB in the shotgun. By the way, the first interception was tipped to the defender and the second was just a great play by Peters - check the commentators comments. I thought that all receivers where coached to knock the ball to the ground or away from defenders if they couldn't catch it.

I do not find any other clips that show a cross section our offensive plays.

Therefore, I see this issue is not as much about blocking or the OLine as play design and two opposing and yet legitimate views for the best formation to run.

Does anyone else see this?

If I can see this, don't you think that the opposing D does also? They are then going to play against our tendencies putting our OLine at a big disadvantage.

To me this is just more logical than just blaming the OLine based on these observations.