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Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:06 am
by dead_poet
Valhalla wrote:Another scenario then is a coach is meeting with two players. The coach says "This Sunday, I want you to go out and kill those guys". One of the players could assert the coach is wanting them to go out and commit murder. It could happen.
I'm pretty sure there's a fairly recent example of that taking place with one defensive coordinator named Gregg Williams, who (in addition to using this type of language) also established a fund rewarding players for injuring/carting off opposing players. And what was the result?
NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell responded with some of the most severe sanctions in the league's 92-year history, and among the most severe punishments for in-game misconduct in North American professional sports history. Williams was suspended indefinitely, while Payton was suspended for the entire 2012 season—the first time in modern NFL history that a head coach has been suspended for any reason—and Loomis was suspended for the first eight games of the 2012 season. Assistant head coach Joe Vitt was suspended for the first six games of the 2012 season. The Saints organization was fined $500,000, and forced to forfeit their second-round draft selections in 2012 and 2013. On May 2, 2012, four current and former Saints players were suspended after being named as ringleaders in the scandal, with linebacker Jonathan Vilma being suspended for the entire 2012 season—the longest suspension for an on-field incident in modern NFL history.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orlean ... ty_scandal

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:28 am
by dead_poet
Valhalla wrote:But the Saints were punished for giving out bounties for the "kill" shots, "knockouts" and "cartoffs" not for language used.
Again, it's not quite the same situation. That's still on-field stuff and not targeting a particular ethnic or religious group or those of a particular sexual orientation. What if that same coach said, "Let's go out there and kill those [insert ethnic slang word here of your choice]!" A bit different. Depending on the ethnicity or views of the people he's trying to motivate, it could still be offensive.

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:49 am
by Mothman
http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_25 ... ssible-but
Chris Kluwe lawsuit against Vikings still possible but isn't imminent

Former Vikings punter Chris Kluwe has not ruled out a lawsuit against the team regarding wrongful termination, but the filing of any such suit is not imminent.

Kluwe had been under the impression he might have to sue by May 6 because of a possible one-year statute of limitations from when he was released May 6, 2013. However, Kluwe's lawyer and an attorney speaking for the Vikings said Friday night the team has agreed to extend the deadline for when Kluwe could file any suit.
Kluwe and his attorney, Clayton Halunen, both said Friday that Kluwe would sue if the investigation does not result in the findings they hope.

"It would obviously be wrongful termination,'' Kluwe said. "A direct supervisor made homophobic remarks repeatedly, and it was an atmosphere that was not conducive to a good working environment, and I ended up getting fired from the team despite the fact that my performance (in 2012) had been as good as the previous years.''

If it comes to a lawsuit, Kluwe said he would sue for the "maximum" for "lost wages and emotional distress.''

"Every single penny I would donate to LGBT charities,'' he said. "It's not about me getting the money; it's about showing the NFL you can't do this.''

Kluwe agreed when asked if a possible suit could seek more than $30 million.
Halunen told the Pioneer Press in January that Kluwe met with director of player development Les Pico shortly after Jeff Locke was drafted as his replacement on April 28, 2012, to complain about Priefer. Kluwe then was released within a week.

"I didn't know I wasn't going to be with the Vikings until they drafted someone, and then I saw the writing on the wall,'' Kluwe said. "In hindsight, it would have been nice to bring (Priefer's alleged remarks) up earlier, but I had no idea until then that something was going to happen.''
That's a curious comment. It sounds like, despite the "emotional distress" he was experiencing, he didn't feel it was worth approaching Les Pico about the problem until after the Vikings drafted a player who could take his job.

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:54 am
by Cliff
Mothman wrote: That's a curious comment. It sounds like, despite the "emotional distress" he was experiencing, he didn't feel it was worth approaching Les Pico about the problem until after the Vikings drafted a player who could take his job.
Well, he didn't have any action that he could have taken at that point, did he? Like has been pointed out in this post, simply making those comments (especially when he's not gay himself) isn't necessarily enough on its own. It wasn't until he was fired that real action was taken against him personally for his views (according to him).

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:31 am
by Mothman
http://msn.foxsports.com/north/story/kl ... ion-071514
"We've, from Day 1, indicated that Chris has no inclination, no desire to be involved in litigation with the Vikings," Halunen said, adding, "He's never been in it for the money. He was not going to take any money from it. The money is going to go to a charity."
He has no desire to be involved in litigation with the Vikings and yet there have been multiple threats of litigation.
The charges of religious discrimination are new.

"Yeah, (Priefer) said, 'You'll burn in hell with the gays,' that 'Jesus is your only savior,'" Kluwe said Tuesday. "Some were delivered mockingly, some weren't. Some could have been trying to get a rise out of him, some very much felt like he's saying something he means and it just felt inappropriate in a way that as they went on it went beyond locker room stuff, trying to get a rise out of someone."
Right or wrong, I don't see how Kluwe and his lawyers are going to make a convincing case unless they get a "smoking gun" that indicates Vikings management conspired to fire him because of his views. I don't see how they're going to make a convincing case for discrimination based on sexual orientation or religious belief either. The litigation threats seems like bluster and threatening toward end goals like a financial settlement, Priefer's dismissal and public disclosure of the report by the Vikings.

In his comments above, Kluwe says some of Priefer's comments were delivered mockingly and some weren't, which sounds understandably subjective. He characterized Priefer's comments as "semi-joking" in the statement at Deadspin that started all of this too. In that statement, Kluwe also said "I honestly don't know if my activism was the reason I got fired". I can't imagine that will help his case either.

If they're going to sue, they'll have their work cut out for them unless a "smoking gun" emerges.

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:42 am
by Mothman
Cliff wrote: Well, he didn't have any action that he could have taken at that point, did he? Like has been pointed out in this post, simply making those comments (especially when he's not gay himself) isn't necessarily enough on its own. It wasn't until he was fired that real action was taken against him personally for his views (according to him).
I think you misunderstood me. He could have taken that same action at any point.

Kluwe went to Vikings Director of Player Development Les Pico to express his concerns about Priefer's behavior before he was released from the team but only after they drafted Locke. Since Kluwe is claiming Priefer's discriminating comments occurred over a period of months, he could have taken his concerns about them to Pico at any time. Instead, he waited until they drafted a younger punter that might replace him. His comment that "In hindsight, it would have been nice to bring (Priefer's alleged remarks) up earlier, but I had no idea until then that something was going to happen'' strikes me as curious because, if Priefer's behavior was really that much of a concern to him, if it was as egregiously wrong as Kluwe is now making it out to be, you would think he might have brought it to Pico's attention earlier. Instead, the implication of his comment above is that he only brought it to Pico once he saw the possibility that he might lose his job to Locke.

I think all of that undermines his position.

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:35 pm
by Cliff
Mothman wrote: I think you misunderstood me. He could have taken that same action at any point.

Kluwe went to Vikings Director of Player Development Les Pico to express his concerns about Priefer's behavior before he was released from the team but only after they drafted Locke. Since Kluwe is claiming Priefer's discriminating comments occurred over a period of months, he could have taken his concerns about them to Pico at any time. Instead, he waited until they drafted a younger punter that might replace him. His comment that "In hindsight, it would have been nice to bring (Priefer's alleged remarks) up earlier, but I had no idea until then that something was going to happen'' strikes me as curious because, if Priefer's behavior was really that much of a concern to him, if it was as egregiously wrong as Kluwe is now making it out to be, you would think he might have brought it to Pico's attention earlier. Instead, the implication of his comment above is that he only brought it to Pico once he saw the possibility that he might lose his job to Locke.

I think all of that undermines his position.
I think it goes back to action actually being taken. Just because you disagree with what someone is saying and think that their belief system is wrong doesn't mean you have a valid complaint to make on them to management. When it became clear action was being taken against him over his statements (in his mind, at least) is when he himself took action.

I'm sure in retrospect he does wish he had said something sooner ... but I'm not sure that lessens his position or makes the team look better because he should have stepped forward sooner.

It undermines him insomuch as he obviously wasn't willing to stand up for LGBT rights based solely on what his boss said ... but I'm not sure it undermines his legal motion if he has proof that Priefer fired him because of his comments.

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:51 pm
by Funkytown
Reignman wrote:You got nothing left when you start trying to argue word meaning and context. Hello! One of these guys has already been exposed as a liar, and you're trying to argue context? SMH
:appl:

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:07 pm
by Mothman
Funkytown wrote: :appl:
Seriously? Do you really think tone, situation, body language, the meaning of words, etc. have no relevance in communication? Have you ever heard a comedian deliver a line in a sarcastic tone that made it funny?

It's ridiculous to suggest context doesn't matter. Context is why we can look at a little animation of two hands clapping and understand that you were applauding a statement from Reignman's post. Remove the quote above it and we just know you're applauding something. Remove the animation from the message board altogether and put it on it's own and we'd know even less about what you meant. Context matters.

The idea that discussing the meaning of the words used in a statement means "you got nothing left" is even more ridiculous. The meaning of words is the basis for written and verbal communication! Of course it's relevant. If it wasn't, we wouldn't even be able to discuss a subject like this on a message board.

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:18 pm
by Cliff
Mothman wrote: Seriously? Do you really think tone, situation, body language, the meaning of words, etc. have no relevance in communication? Have you ever heard a comedian deliver a line in a sarcastic tone that made it funny?

It's ridiculous to suggest context doesn't matter. Context is why we can look at a little animation of two hands clapping and understand that you were applauding a statement from Reignman's post. Remove the quote above it and we just know you're applauding something. Remove the animation from the message board altogether and put it on it's own and we'd know even less about what you meant. Context matters.

The idea that discussing the meaning of the words used in a statement means "you got nothing left" is even more ridiculous. The meaning of words is the basis for written and verbal communication! Of course it's relevant. If it wasn't, we wouldn't even be able to discuss a subject like this on a message board.
Gotta agree with Jim. Though I don't know what the context was, and think there are very limited scenarios in which it could possibly be ok, I can imagine him saying something like; "What am I going to have to do to get you to focus and kick the ball where I tell you!? Put all of the gays on an island and nuke it so that your focus is on football instead!?"

Again, I don't think that's likely. If the Vikings refuse to release their report, I'll be left to assume the context was more negative than it already appears. I really hope they release it so we can stop speculating.

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:31 pm
by Mothman
Cliff wrote:I think it goes back to action actually being taken. Just because you disagree with what someone is saying and think that their belief system is wrong doesn't mean you have a valid complaint to make on them to management. When it became clear action was being taken against him over his statements (in his mind, at least) is when he himself took action.
So, by "action taken against him", should I assume you mean the Vikings decision to draft Locke?

I think it's important to remember that we're not just talking about a difference in beliefs here. Kluwe is claiming Priefer engaged in harassment and discrimination and that his behavior in the workplace was so egregious, so far over the line of appropriate behavior, that Kluwe's stated goal was to "make sure that Mike Priefer never holds a coaching position again in the NFL, and ideally never coaches at any level."

If Priefer's behavior toward Kluwe was so bad that Kluwe wants to literally end the man's career, and if that behavior went on for months, why didn't Kluwe address it with someone in the Vikings organization until after they drafted Locke (which was months after the 2012 season — presumably when most of this interaction occurred — had ended)? If someone was treating you that poorly in the workplace for an extended period of time, wouldn't you take it up with Human Resources or your boss or someone in a position to address the problem?
I'm sure in retrospect he does wish he had said something sooner ... but I'm not sure that lessens his position or makes the team look better because he should have stepped forward sooner.
I think it gives us reason to call a lot of what he's saying into question and if this case ever goes to court, it opens the door for the Vikings lawyers to construct a pretty plausible alternative to Kluwe's story.
It undermines him insomuch as he obviously wasn't willing to stand up for LGBT rights based solely on what his boss said ... but I'm not sure it undermines his legal motion if he has proof that Priefer fired him because of his comments.
He obviously doesn't have that proof but maybe the independent report will provide it.

As for his willingness to stand up for LGBT rights: that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about his willingness to stand up for his own rights in the workplace.

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:41 pm
by Funkytown
Mothman wrote: Seriously? Do you really think tone, situation, body language, the meaning of words, etc. have no relevance in communication? Have you ever heard a comedian deliver a line in a sarcastic tone that made it funny?

It's ridiculous to suggest context doesn't matter. Context is why we can look at a little animation of two hands clapping and understand that you were applauding a statement from Reignman's post. Remove the quote above it and we just know you're applauding something. Remove the animation from the message board altogether and put it on it's own and we'd know even less about what you meant. Context matters.

The idea that discussing the meaning of the words used in a statement means "you got nothing left" is even more ridiculous. The meaning of words is the basis for written and verbal communication! Of course it's relevant. If it wasn't, we wouldn't even be able to discuss a subject like this on a message board.
Oh, so if Priefer says "he didn't mean it that way" we should all just take his word for it? We know how much that is worth at this point, and that is what Reignman meant. Is Priefer even arguing context? That's what I'd like to know. I think it is the weakest argument ever, even if I'd consider it one at all. So, you could say the crappiest thing ever to someone in a professional setting and then just claim, "Oh, I was just kidding" or “Well, I didn’t mean it that way, so ha!” and that makes it justifiable? ...really? I don't think so. The thing is, when you say something potentially hurtful, you don't get to decide how someone takes it. If someone is offended by a stupid comment, they have a right to those feelings whether "you were just joking or not." Also, Priefer is not a comedian, so I don't think it was meant to be funny. Regardless of his intent, he still doesn't get to determine how Kluwe takes it. If Kluwe said he was bothered by it, why can't he be bothered by it, especially considering their relationship? But, again, that's a weak argument, especially from a liar. If people are concerned about Kluwe proving the points in his case, how is Priefer really ever going to prove context? How do you prove you meant something a certain way in contrast to how someone took it? Again, it’s not up to you how someone responds to your idiotic comments, but you better be prepared to deal with the possible consequences. In the end, there are some things that you just don’t say to some people, regardless of context. And then, there are those things that probably shouldn’t be said at all, regardless of context. Obviously comedians get away with it, but are people really that desperate for an argument regarding context that they'd link Priefer to a professional comedian...?

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:49 pm
by Cliff
Mothman wrote: So, by "action taken against him", should I assume you mean the Vikings decision to draft Locke?
Yes, in his eyes (it doesn't matter if we think it's right or wrong at this point) them drafting Locke was a direct result of a recommendation by Priefer and happened as a result of Priefer's bias against him and his stance on LGBT rights. Or at least that's how I'm taking what he says.
I think it's important to remember that we're not just talking about a difference in beliefs here. Kluwe is claiming Priefer engaged in harassment and discrimination and that his behavior in the workplace was so egregious, so far over the line of appropriate behavior, that Kluwe's stated goal was to "make sure that Mike Priefer never holds a coaching position again in the NFL, and ideally never coaches at any level."

If Priefer's behavior toward Kluwe was so bad that Kluwe wants to literally end the man's career, and if that behavior went on for months, why didn't Kluwe address it with someone in the Vikings organization until after they drafted Locke (which was months after the 2012 season — presumably when most of this interaction occurred — had ended)? If someone was treating you that poorly in the workplace for an extended period of time, wouldn't you take it up with Human Resources or your boss or someone in a position to address the problem?
Maybe ... but it depends on the culture of the place I work. With the mentality that a large chunk of the NFL seems to have, I would be worried about coming off as a "whiner" and losing my job. Lets face it, punters aren't exactly the most difficult to replace position. Of course I would like to believe that I'd do 'the right thing' in my mind ... but self preservation is a pretty big motivator. And perhaps that will hurt Kluwe's case ... but it seems like a pretty human reaction to have.
I think it gives us reason to call a lot of what he's saying into question and if this case ever goes to court, it opens the door for the Vikings lawyers to construct a pretty plausible alternative to Kluwe's story.
It calls what he says into question a bit, no doubt. The timing doesn't support his case well, for sure. It'd be nice to see what the Vikings found when they researched the allegations themselves ... or what proof Kluwe actually has.

He obviously doesn't have that proof but maybe the independent report will provide it

As for his willingness to stand up for LGBT rights: that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about his willingness to stand up for his own rights in the workplace.
I'm not sure if he has the proof or not. He has a year to file suit and that has been extended at this point. Just because he's willing to work with the Vikings out of court doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't have the proof ... but whatever proof he does have (which I'm guessing amounts to eye-witness testimony), I don't think we've seen it yet, have we?

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:52 pm
by Mothman
Cliff wrote:Gotta agree with Jim. Though I don't know what the context was, and think there are very limited scenarios in which it could possibly be ok, I can imagine him saying something like; "What am I going to have to do to get you to focus and kick the ball where I tell you!? Put all of the gays on an island and nuke it so that your focus is on football instead!?"
Exactly. It could have just been something like "Let's just put all of the gays on an island and nuke it so we can get to work". Again, we don't know but Kluwe's description of events says he and other players were walking into a meeting and talking and "laughing over one of the recent articles I had written supporting same-sex marriage rights, and one of my teammates made a joking remark about me leading the Pride parade."

It was at that point that Priefer said whatever he said. maybe he was in a bad mood because he didn't feel they were sufficiently focused, or because they hadn't been practicing well or because he was sick of hearing Kluwe talk about his off-the-field activism when he felt he needed to be focused on improving his punting performance. There are all sorts of ways it could have gone down and it's not hard to imagine a frustrated, impatient coach saying something nasty to shut everybody up and get them to pay attention. I'm guessing that's a common occurrence in NFL meeting rooms.

Kluwe characterizes it as follows:
As we sat down in our chairs, Mike Priefer, in one of the meanest voices I can ever recall hearing, said: "We should round up all the gays, send them to an island, and then nuke it until it glows." The room grew intensely quiet, and none of the players said a word for the rest of the meeting. The atmosphere was decidedly tense. I had never had an interaction that hostile with any of my teammates on this issue—some didn't agree with me, but our conversations were always civil and respectful. Afterward, several told me that what Mike Priefer had said was "messed up."
Okay, was everybody quiet because of what Preifer said or because their coach had just made it clear they'd better shut up and pay attention? Was the atmosphere tense because they were being chewed out for some football-related reason? Was it all exactly what Kluwe implies it to be? We don't know but his characterization of events is just his view, not the only possible view, and we don't have any others yet.

Kluwe definitely, and understandably, described events in a manner that would make readers sympathetic toward him. For example:

"On Oct. 25, I had a poor game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and the Vikings brought in several punters for a workout to potentially replace me. I do not believe this was motivated by my speaking out on same-sex equality, though I do not know for sure. During the special-teams meeting the following day, Mike Priefer berated me in an incredibly harsh tone the likes of which I've never heard a coach use about my abilities as a punter (and I have been berated before). The room went silent after he finished speaking, in a way that normally does not happen during meetings when someone is being called out. The Vikings kept me on as their punter."

Anyone who has ever been present when someone really gets mad and chews out another person knows it's not unusual for a scene like that to be followed by uncomfortable silence. Was Priefer's tone "incredibly harsh" in a way that was excessive, as Kluwe implies, or did it seem that way to him because he was the target of his coach's ire? It would be interesting to hear how the other players present would describe the scene.

All of the above should further illustrate the importance of context and language in this entire case.

Re: Kluwe rips Frazier, Spielman, Priefer

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:01 pm
by Cliff
Valhalla wrote:Mike Wilborn, they were talking also earlier in the year about some words used between players. Wilborn didn't have any problem with it. But I say, if any player is caught using the words they were discussing, the players should be punished as well.
I think it's a very different situation if it happens between players. I think coaches have to be more careful because at the end of the day they're management. They're responsible for hiring and firing these players, it's a much different relationship. Much like working in the real word, in this case. I'd say things to my co-workers that I would never say to my boss and that works both ways. There are certain things that you simply cannot say to someone working underneath you or it could cause problems.

Though if the player-on-player talk gets to a certain level that's obviously a problem too. Look at what happened with Richie Incognito.