Vikings Message Board.Com

mansquatch wrote: ↑Wed May 01, 2019 10:26 am #3 WR is almost always a depth guy. Not many teams are allocating a ton of cap space to #3 WR. Given the cap the Vikings are giving the defense, they definitely won't be spending money on #3. Also, IMO, the question is more skillset for the Vikings. They two possession type guys who make a lot of contested catches. They need a guy who can stretch the field at #3.

On the dynamic runner thing. I get the general BPA point of view, but there is value in having a power runner and more of shifty burst guy. We have the latter in Cook. We lost the power, inside the tackles guy in Murray so it made sense for the Vikings to go for the more power type back. Also in the mix is how well the guy can pass protect and how well he can make plays catching the ball. I'm willing to give up some 40 time if the guy can do everything else well. Especially when you already have the speed guy in Cook as your starter.

I really am still shocked people are mad about this draft. The went interior OL in the 1st round and added a guard later. This was far and away the biggest need on the team and they addressed it. Yet, you are mad about a late 3rd round pick. I think this is the most I've talked about a 3rd round pick on this board in my time here and I've been posting since the Tice era.

Lol. Who is saying anything about Cap? Teams are allocating resources to a 3rd WR if they don't have a top flight QB. That's factual.

Rams - 3 WRs
Atlanta - 3 WRs
Bears - 4 Wrs
Panthers - 3 wrs
Titans - 3 WRs
Colts - 3 WR
Browns - 3 WR
Seattle - 3 WR (excluding Baldwin)

https://www.vikings.com/video/rick-spie ... an-q-and-a

Pretty good listen. Spielman breaks down the draft, explains what they do when looking into drafting a player, etc. A lot of insight here with what goes on behind the scenes that we dont know about.

Y'all arguing about #3 WRs ... you need to take a look at Gary Kubiak's history (and let's not kid ourselves -- Stefanski is the OC, but this will be Kubiak's offense).

Kubiak doesn't run a lot of 11 personnel (one back, one tight end, three receivers). He just doesn't. Look at the teams he's coached. In 20+ seasons as either a head coach or an OC, Kubiak's teams targed the tight end about 1/4th of the time. That is a fact. He uses a lot of 2 tight end sets, and with Irv Smith on board, he'll do that here. That's why Smith was drafted. It's the scouting report on him -- teams that run 2 TE sets will love the guy.

What does that do to the #3 WR? It diminishes the value of him. Doesn't make him irrelevant, but it diminished his value. It's inarguable, given Kubiak's history.

It also makes Kyle Rudolph less expendable, perhaps indispensable for 2019. Smith isn't ready to be the primary tight end in a 1 tight end set, and that's not what Kubiak runs a lot of, anyway.

This isn't what I think. It's not a statement of my opinion on how our offense should be run. It's just a factual analysis of Gary Kubiak's history as an offensive coach. You're going to see a lot of Rudy and Smith on the field, less of Treadwell or Beebe or whomever else the Vikings trot out there at #3 WR.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 4:01 pm Y'all arguing about #3 WRs ... you need to take a look at Gary Kubiak's history (and let's not kid ourselves -- Stefanski is the OC, but this will be Kubiak's offense).

Kubiak doesn't run a lot of 11 personnel (one back, one tight end, three receivers). He just doesn't. Look at the teams he's coached. In 20+ seasons as either a head coach or an OC, Kubiak's teams targed the tight end about 1/4th of the time. That is a fact. He uses a lot of 2 tight end sets, and with Irv Smith on board, he'll do that here. That's why Smith was drafted. It's the scouting report on him -- teams that run 2 TE sets will love the guy.

What does that do to the #3 WR? It diminishes the value of him. Doesn't make him irrelevant, but it diminished his value. It's inarguable, given Kubiak's history.

It also makes Kyle Rudolph less expendable, perhaps indispensable for 2019. Smith isn't ready to be the primary tight end in a 1 tight end set, and that's not what Kubiak runs a lot of, anyway.

This isn't what I think. It's not a statement of my opinion on how our offense should be run. It's just a factual analysis of Gary Kubiak's history as an offensive coach. You're going to see a lot of Rudy and Smith on the field, less of Treadwell or Beebe or whomever else the Vikings trot out there at #3 WR.

Well said, although I still hope to see David Morgan replace Kyle Rudolph.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 4:50 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 4:01 pm Y'all arguing about #3 WRs ... you need to take a look at Gary Kubiak's history (and let's not kid ourselves -- Stefanski is the OC, but this will be Kubiak's offense).

Kubiak doesn't run a lot of 11 personnel (one back, one tight end, three receivers). He just doesn't. Look at the teams he's coached. In 20+ seasons as either a head coach or an OC, Kubiak's teams targed the tight end about 1/4th of the time. That is a fact. He uses a lot of 2 tight end sets, and with Irv Smith on board, he'll do that here. That's why Smith was drafted. It's the scouting report on him -- teams that run 2 TE sets will love the guy.

What does that do to the #3 WR? It diminishes the value of him. Doesn't make him irrelevant, but it diminished his value. It's inarguable, given Kubiak's history.

It also makes Kyle Rudolph less expendable, perhaps indispensable for 2019. Smith isn't ready to be the primary tight end in a 1 tight end set, and that's not what Kubiak runs a lot of, anyway.

This isn't what I think. It's not a statement of my opinion on how our offense should be run. It's just a factual analysis of Gary Kubiak's history as an offensive coach. You're going to see a lot of Rudy and Smith on the field, less of Treadwell or Beebe or whomever else the Vikings trot out there at #3 WR.

Well said, although I still hope to see David Morgan replace Kyle Rudolph.

Here's another Kubiak stat.

Over the same 20+ year period, WR3s averaged only 21 receptions in Kubiak offenses. That's 14 fewer than Laquon Treadwell caught last year.

This is not John DeFilippo's throw-every-down offense. Kubiak runs to set up the pass, and when he throws, it's to WR1, WR2, tight ends and backs. Don't get bent out of shape over WR3.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 5:10 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 4:50 pm

Well said, although I still hope to see David Morgan replace Kyle Rudolph.

Here's another Kubiak stat.

Over the same 20+ year period, WR3s averaged only 21 receptions in Kubiak offenses. That's 14 fewer than Laquon Treadwell caught last year.

This is not John DeFilippo's throw-every-down offense. Kubiak runs to set up the pass, and when he throws, it's to WR1, WR2, tight ends and backs. Don't get bent out of shape over WR3.

Exactly. Which makes Laquan Treadwell even more expendable than he already was.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 7:01 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 5:10 pm
Here's another Kubiak stat.

Over the same 20+ year period, WR3s averaged only 21 receptions in Kubiak offenses. That's 14 fewer than Laquon Treadwell caught last year.

This is not John DeFilippo's throw-every-down offense. Kubiak runs to set up the pass, and when he throws, it's to WR1, WR2, tight ends and backs. Don't get bent out of shape over WR3.

Exactly. Which makes Laquan Treadwell even more expendable than he already was.

There you go. Hence, the incentive to decline his 5th year option, which the Vikings have done.

I have a feeling we're going to be really surprised by this offense. I have no idea whether it will be a good surprise. I hope so. But it will be different than we've become accustomed to, in virtually every way.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 5:10 pm

fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 4:50 pm

Well said, although I still hope to see David Morgan replace Kyle Rudolph.

Here's another Kubiak stat.

Over the same 20+ year period, WR3s averaged only 21 receptions in Kubiak offenses. That's 14 fewer than Laquon Treadwell caught last year.

This is not John DeFilippo's throw-every-down offense. Kubiak runs to set up the pass, and when he throws, it's to WR1, WR2, tight ends and backs. Don't get bent out of shape over WR3.

Ya know, I was looking for that statistic and couldnt find it anywhere. I'm glad you found it. This is another reason WR3 wasnt nearly as important as some think. Like you said, this isnt Flip's offense where we hardly run the ball and throw the entire game. This is a huge reason why you saw us draft a great interior offensive lineman, an athletic TE, a downhill workhorse RB and a mauling OG in our first four picks. Why pass on Irv Smith or Mattison to draft a guy that's going to average roughly 21 catches a year?? Guys think Mattison and/or Smith were bad picks or reaches? Drafting a WR that early is a bad pick.

The reason I like this draft so much is because yes, we filled some needs but we didnt draft for need IMO. I dont see much of a reach anywhere within the first four picks. We drafted for need in this offense. And IMO, it was the BPA at that position each time. Bradbury was the best interior OL, Smith was the best available TE, Mattison was the best available RB (I had him best available, I know others didnt), and Samia was the best available guard on the board. They all filled needs, they all fit this offense and they were all the best players available on the board. That's a huge win in my book.

The only players I dont think I was big on, was the long snapper pick and Olabisi Johnson. We could have easily gotten the long snapper as an UDFA if you ask me but I could be wrong. There were only 4 more picks after him in the entire draft. As for Johnson, Granted he played for a terrible team but his numbers werent very impressive either.

I think Cam Smith is just a hard-nosed football player that relies on effort and hard work. I think Watts is the biggest sleeper in the class. Oli Udah is a raw project with NFL size. Epps I believe either won the award or was a finalist for the best walk-on in the country and by the looks of it, is going to be a depth piece behind our starting safeties. Kris Boyd is another good depth piece especially with Hill missing time. And Mitchell is the other one I feel like could be a huge sleeper. Watts and Mitchell are definitely my favorites in the late rounds. Either way, I was very impressed with this draft.

On a side note, how did ILB Khalil Hodge out of Buffalo not get drafted or even signed by a team??!!! The guy had 123 tackles as a freshman, 153 as a sophomore and 143 as a junior and he's still somehow unsigned. He was snubbed at the combine, snubbed at the draft and now being snubbed as an UDFA. I would be jumping all over that kid right now. What do you have to lose? He's like the ultimate low-risk giant reward type signing at this point.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 4:01 pm Y'all arguing about #3 WRs ... you need to take a look at Gary Kubiak's history (and let's not kid ourselves -- Stefanski is the OC, but this will be Kubiak's offense).

Kubiak doesn't run a lot of 11 personnel (one back, one tight end, three receivers). He just doesn't. Look at the teams he's coached. In 20+ seasons as either a head coach or an OC, Kubiak's teams targed the tight end about 1/4th of the time. That is a fact. He uses a lot of 2 tight end sets, and with Irv Smith on board, he'll do that here. That's why Smith was drafted. It's the scouting report on him -- teams that run 2 TE sets will love the guy.

What does that do to the #3 WR? It diminishes the value of him. Doesn't make him irrelevant, but it diminished his value. It's inarguable, given Kubiak's history.

It also makes Kyle Rudolph less expendable, perhaps indispensable for 2019. Smith isn't ready to be the primary tight end in a 1 tight end set, and that's not what Kubiak runs a lot of, anyway.

This isn't what I think. It's not a statement of my opinion on how our offense should be run. It's just a factual analysis of Gary Kubiak's history as an offensive coach. You're going to see a lot of Rudy and Smith on the field, less of Treadwell or Beebe or whomever else the Vikings trot out there at #3 WR.

Not sure what's up with the board, but I get an internal error msg when I try to rep you, so I'll just say it here: this is the best post I've read on this board in the past few months and it sure explains what the Vikes did in this year's draft. There was a marked difference this year--more focus on offense and signs of a clear vision (finally!) on what kinds of players make sense for the offense we intend to run. This is what we started to see in the drafts on the defense after hiring Zimmer; Now we're finally seeing a logical, comprehensive plan taking shape on O and it's exciting.

Texas Vike wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 9:42 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 4:01 pm Y'all arguing about #3 WRs ... you need to take a look at Gary Kubiak's history (and let's not kid ourselves -- Stefanski is the OC, but this will be Kubiak's offense).

Kubiak doesn't run a lot of 11 personnel (one back, one tight end, three receivers). He just doesn't. Look at the teams he's coached. In 20+ seasons as either a head coach or an OC, Kubiak's teams targed the tight end about 1/4th of the time. That is a fact. He uses a lot of 2 tight end sets, and with Irv Smith on board, he'll do that here. That's why Smith was drafted. It's the scouting report on him -- teams that run 2 TE sets will love the guy.

What does that do to the #3 WR? It diminishes the value of him. Doesn't make him irrelevant, but it diminished his value. It's inarguable, given Kubiak's history.

It also makes Kyle Rudolph less expendable, perhaps indispensable for 2019. Smith isn't ready to be the primary tight end in a 1 tight end set, and that's not what Kubiak runs a lot of, anyway.

This isn't what I think. It's not a statement of my opinion on how our offense should be run. It's just a factual analysis of Gary Kubiak's history as an offensive coach. You're going to see a lot of Rudy and Smith on the field, less of Treadwell or Beebe or whomever else the Vikings trot out there at #3 WR.

Not sure what's up with the board, but I get an internal error msg when I try to rep you, so I'll just say it here: this is the best post I've read on this board in the past few months and it sure explains what the Vikes did in this year's draft. There was a marked difference this year--more focus on offense and signs of a clear vision (finally!) on what kinds of players make sense for the offense we intend to run. This is what we started to see in the drafts on the defense after hiring Zimmer; Now we're finally seeing a logical, comprehensive plan taking shape on O and it's exciting.

Well said, I agree as well. As for the board, yeah I've been getting some errors here and there too. Not sure what's going on.

Texas Vike wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 9:42 am this is the best post I've read on this board in the past few months and it sure explains what the Vikes did in this year's draft. There was a marked difference this year--more focus on offense and signs of a clear vision (finally!) on what kinds of players make sense for the offense we intend to run. This is what we started to see in the drafts on the defense after hiring Zimmer; Now we're finally seeing a logical, comprehensive plan taking shape on O and it's exciting.

I like it. I see that same thing taking shape.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 4:01 pm Y'all arguing about #3 WRs ... you need to take a look at Gary Kubiak's history (and let's not kid ourselves -- Stefanski is the OC, but this will be Kubiak's offense).

Why is Stefanski the OC if Kubiak is really running the offense? Why wouldn't Zimmer just make Kubiak the OC and leave Stefanski where he was?

Stefanski has no business being an OC unless he got the job based on his own thoughts and ideas about offense. He's either going to get on the horse and take the reins or he's not, and if not, then Zimmer did everyone a disservice by making him the OC.

I'm excited about the influence and experience Kubiak can bring to the offense, but I really see him playing a secondary role and supporting Stefanski more than the other way around. If it is the other way around, then Zimmer should make Kubiak the OC and make it clear who is calling the shots.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri May 03, 2019 1:49 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 4:01 pm Y'all arguing about #3 WRs ... you need to take a look at Gary Kubiak's history (and let's not kid ourselves -- Stefanski is the OC, but this will be Kubiak's offense).

Why is Stefanski the OC if Kubiak is really running the offense? Why wouldn't Zimmer just make Kubiak the OC and leave Stefanski where he was?

Stefanski has no business being an OC unless he got the job based on his own thoughts and ideas about offense. He's either going to get on the horse and take the reins or he's not, and if not, then Zimmer did everyone a disservice by making him the OC.

I'm excited about the influence and experience Kubiak can bring to the offense, but I really see him playing a secondary role and supporting Stefanski more than the other way around. If it is the other way around, then Zimmer should make Kubiak the OC and make it clear who is calling the shots.

Who are you saying should be what?

Reading what Kapp and others are writing about Kubiak’s offensives, run %, 2TE %, use of WR3 etc is actually getting me excited about Viking football again for the first time since the 2nd quarter of the NFCC game January 2018!!!

Especially with all of the defenses being built to stop pass pass pass with 4WR sets. If the Vikings really are a run first 2 TE team, it could present some huge matchup problems for A LOT of modern defenses

Oh well I’m sure this new found optimism will fade by early October