2018 Offense Autopsy Redux - What really went wrong?

[WallytheVike]

You guys know your stuff. I can't disagree with what you're all saying. I think its a combination of some bad coaching dissensions and not taking the right players in the draft over the last couple years. We needed to fix the O-line and didn't do that and then our O-line coach passes away rest his sole. The OC didn't work out whether it was not listening to Zimmer when he said run the ball more or not learning from his mistakes and not game planning correctly. Then you add the injuries to the O-line. I'll add that the offense should take a little blame for the way the D played. The offense doesn't have to score every time they get the ball but controlling the ball gives the D a rest and keeps the opponents offense off the field. Its a combination of things that sunk our season. I will say this. The defense either gave up at the ed or they just didn't care which is maybe the same thing. Zimmer knows this is either win or he'll be out of a job so I have faith he'll get the D to play the way there supposed to and with the addition of Kubiak the offense should be better. Draft some big horses for the O-line and this ream will look a let different. Skol!

Hope I'm doing this right. According to the ESPN site Zimmer challenged Rhodes. Zimmer said "We're paying him a lot of money, he needs to play up to that contract," This goes with what I was just saying. It looked like the defense gave up at the end of the season. I was really talking about Rhodes. He needs to grow up and realize he could be one of the best to play the game. He is a shut down corner and probably one of the best CB's we're ever had. He's being paid so now play up to your ability.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/min ... ta-vikings

Besides offensive line the other area of real need is at Running back. A few years ago I would've said we need to draft one early to get a good one but that has all changed. Running backs are a dime a dozen in the NFL right now so taking one early isn't a wise move unless the guy is just that good. That being said we need a change of pace back and I wouldn't mind having another back like Cooke. I'm not sold on Abdulah and I think there will be better in the draft or we could sign someone who isn't even draft. One thing I do know is there will be guys who are over looked and can play in this league we just have to do our home work and find them. The good teams do.

[WallytheVike]

Hope I'm doing this right. According to the ESPN site Zimmer challenged Rhodes. Zimmer said "We're paying him a lot of money, he needs to play up to that contract," This goes with what I was just saying. It looked like the defense gave up at the end of the season. I was really talking about Rhodes. He needs to grow up and realize he could be one of the best to play the game. He is a shut down corner and probably one of the best CB's we're ever had. He's being paid so now play up to your ability.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/_/name/min ... ta-vikings

Besides offensive line the other area of real need is at Running back. A few years ago I would've said we need to draft one early to get a good one but that has all changed. Running backs are a dime a dozen in the NFL right now so taking one early isn't a wise move unless the guy is just that good. That being said we need a change of pace back and I wouldn't mind having another back like Cooke. I'm not sold on Abdulah and I think there will be better in the draft or we could sign someone who isn't even draft. One thing I do know is there will be guys who are over looked and can play in this league we just have to do our home work and find them. The good teams do.

One of these guys should be there when we pick in round one. Anyone of these guys would be an upgrade from what we had last year..

O-tackles
Jawaan Taylor* Florida 6' 5" 334
Jonah Williams* Alabama 6'5" 301
Greg Little* Mississippi 6' 6" 325
Andre Dillard Washington State 6' 5" 310

[S197]

Just to clarify, this post is quite clearly about the offense. Not all of the 8-7-1 season was on the offensive coaching staff, nor did I say it was. However, if you watched all the games then you know that the MAJORITY of our issues were on the offensive side of the ball.

The field goal kicking was pretty inconsistent, especially at the start of the year. Definitely contributed heavily to the result in the game against the Packers in Green Bay.

The defense struggled at times. I think someone mentioned that unit as being primarily responsible for the outcome of the game against the Rams. And that wasn't the only game with major lapses by that unit, either. There were at least 2 others that come to mind (Pats and Seahawks) where I felt defensive lapses contributed heavily to the result.

That being said, I stand by my conclusion that most of the offensive problems were due to bad coaching decisions. And yes, muffed catches, bad QB performance, sacks, etc can be placed on coaching. If the coaches are fielding a poor interior OL (they were) and they start calling tons of medium to deep passes when said OL can't maintain a pocket, then that is on those coaches for not calling a better game plan.

But some of those poor interior OL decisions were foisted on the coaches due to unforeseen injuries. I mean, criticizing the offensive coaches for the outcome of the 2018 season seems a little unfair without at least acknowledging the hand they were dealt.

The main criticism I've seen about the GM contribution to the OL situation was not drafting OL in the 1st round. I've yet to see anyone state another move Spielman/Zimmer could have made past that point last year that would have objectively improved the Vikings situation along the OL as last season went on. And as far as the draft went, it was they could have drafted Hernandez in the 1st.

It seems to me that the OL got hit with a lot of bad luck early last year. Lots of injuries, the death of the OL coach, etc. Snakebit. Hard for me to throw the book at the braintrust for that, and even harder for me to believe there was a "better game plan" they could have called that could compensate for the hand they were dealt, especially when it came to establishing the running game.

Especially considering Cook wasn't even healthy to start the season in addition to the OL issues.

Another example was the NE loss. Everyone, and I mean everyone, knew BB was going to take away Diggs and Thielen. JDF couldn't come up with a way to make the game about Rudolph or Dalvin Cook. Then the very next week SEA basically copied the BB template and JDF still didn't have an answer. That is bad coaching.

Are you suggesting that someone else could have come up with a way to defeat the BB/Carroll approach? Both away games against opponents with winning records. Both games where the Vikings were manhandled on defense. Patriots ran it and passed it, while the Seahawks just ran it.

Team stats against Patriots - http://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=401030959

Team stats against Seahawks - http://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=401030867

Sure, you can argue the offense played a role there too, but the defense wasn't exactly stellar.

But let's get to the future, because that is what matters now.

Are you happy with the coaching moves made so far? Based on what has happened, how do you think the offense generally, and the OL in particular, is going to change heading into the 2019 season? What other moves do you think need to be made to shore things up?

It wasn't just the 1st round, it was the draft in general. Guard was the biggest need on the team, I'd dare say that was almost a near unanimous opinion from fans and experts alike. And Spielman sat on his hands for 6 rounds before grabbing one. Then the guy he takes doesn't even make the squad.

Like I said, people seem to hang on Sparano and injuries, and yes those were very unfortunate events that did play a big part of the problem. But Spielman has been here for well over a decade and the OL has been consistently been below average during his tenure. A lot of the problems are self-inflected due to neglect and inability to scout talent.

[mansquatch]

I think the case of Hughes vs. Hernandez isn't as obvious when you factor in timing. Hindsight makes it look worse than it was. When they drafted in April, Sparano was alive and Easton was still healthy. At that point they had Remmers/Hill at RT with an option to shift Remmers to OG. They also had Compton as a backup. What we do not know is how Sparano felt about these players. It might be that he felt he could do OK with that group at Guard. It's easy to blame Rick here, but we do not know how they viewed the needs in April.

Still, I share the view that taking Hughes was a mistake. The weakest part of the Roster going into 2018 was Guard. Even if you feel good about the guy you have, we needed insurance there a lot more than we needed it at CB. This should have been a relatively obvious choice given the amount of injury issues this unit has faced over the past decade. Almost every season there is at least one starter on the IR.

Another line of thinking on this might be Salary Cap. They might have held the view that they were not going to be able to keep both Waynes and Rhodes on their second contracts, so it made sense to start to grab another talent and develop him to prepare for one or the other starters being a cap casualty. Perhaps the Cousins' deal had something to do with this?

This draft will be very interesting. Losing Latavius Murray was a big deal. We need a change of pace / bruiser type back. Cook is explosive, but he lacks durability. That weakness is glaring and demands some type of insurance policy. They also know they need some juice at 3 technique. BUT... they also need insurance at OL. So what wins out here? One of those three is going to be round 3 or later. I'd argue that DT is the one we could most easily do without, but... the HC might not agree.

[WallytheVike]

The field goal kicking was pretty inconsistent, especially at the start of the year. Definitely contributed heavily to the result in the game against the Packers in Green Bay.

The defense struggled at times. I think someone mentioned that unit as being primarily responsible for the outcome of the game against the Rams. And that wasn't the only game with major lapses by that unit, either. There were at least 2 others that come to mind (Pats and Seahawks) where I felt defensive lapses contributed heavily to the result.



But some of those poor interior OL decisions were foisted on the coaches due to unforeseen injuries. I mean, criticizing the offensive coaches for the outcome of the 2018 season seems a little unfair without at least acknowledging the hand they were dealt.

The main criticism I've seen about the GM contribution to the OL situation was not drafting OL in the 1st round. I've yet to see anyone state another move Spielman/Zimmer could have made past that point last year that would have objectively improved the Vikings situation along the OL as last season went on. And as far as the draft went, it was they could have drafted Hernandez in the 1st.

It seems to me that the OL got hit with a lot of bad luck early last year. Lots of injuries, the death of the OL coach, etc. Snakebit. Hard for me to throw the book at the braintrust for that, and even harder for me to believe there was a "better game plan" they could have called that could compensate for the hand they were dealt, especially when it came to establishing the running game.

Especially considering Cook wasn't even healthy to start the season in addition to the OL issues.



Are you suggesting that someone else could have come up with a way to defeat the BB/Carroll approach? Both away games against opponents with winning records. Both games where the Vikings were manhandled on defense. Patriots ran it and passed it, while the Seahawks just ran it.

Team stats against Patriots - http://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=401030959

Team stats against Seahawks - http://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=401030867

Sure, you can argue the offense played a role there too, but the defense wasn't exactly stellar.

But let's get to the future, because that is what matters now.

Are you happy with the coaching moves made so far? Based on what has happened, how do you think the offense generally, and the OL in particular, is going to change heading into the 2019 season? What other moves do you think need to be made to shore things up?

It wasn't just the 1st round, it was the draft in general. Guard was the biggest need on the team, I'd dare say that was almost a near unanimous opinion from fans and experts alike. And Spielman sat on his hands for 6 rounds before grabbing one. Then the guy he takes doesn't even make the squad.

Like I said, people seem to hang on Sparano and injuries, and yes those were very unfortunate events that did play a big part of the problem. But Spielman has been here for well over a decade and the OL has been consistently been below average during his tenure. A lot of the problems are self-inflected due to neglect and inability to scout talent.

The field goal kicking was pretty inconsistent, especially at the start of the year. Definitely contributed heavily to the result in the game against the Packers in Green Bay.

The defense struggled at times. I think someone mentioned that unit as being primarily responsible for the outcome of the game against the Rams. And that wasn't the only game with major lapses by that unit, either. There were at least 2 others that come to mind (Pats and Seahawks) where I felt defensive lapses contributed heavily to the result.
But some of those poor interior OL decisions were foisted on the coaches due to unforeseen injuries. I mean, criticizing the offensive coaches for the outcome of the 2018 season seems a little unfair without at least acknowledging the hand they were dealt.

The main criticism I've seen about the GM contribution to the OL situation was not drafting OL in the 1st round. I've yet to see anyone state another move Spielman/Zimmer could have made past that point last year that would have objectively improved the Vikings situation along the OL as last season went on. And as far as the draft went, it was they could have drafted Hernandez in the 1st.

It seems to me that the OL got hit with a lot of bad luck early last year. Lots of injuries, the death of the OL coach, etc. Snakebit. Hard for me to throw the book at the braintrust for that, and even harder for me to believe there was a "better game plan" they could have called that could compensate for the hand they were dealt, especially when it came to establishing the running game.

Especially considering Cook wasn't even healthy to start the season in addition to the OL issues.
Are you suggesting that someone else could have come up with a way to defeat the BB/Carroll approach? Both away games against opponents with winning records. Both games where the Vikings were manhandled on defense. Patriots ran it and passed it, while the Seahawks just ran it.

Team stats against Patriots - http://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=401030959

Team stats against Seahawks - http://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=401030867

Sure, you can argue the offense played a role there too, but the defense wasn't exactly stellar.

But let's get to the future, because that is what matters now.

Are you happy with the coaching moves made so far? Based on what has happened, how do you think the offense generally, and the OL in particular, is going to change heading into the 2019 season? What other moves do you think need to be made to shore things up?

It wasn't just the 1st round, it was the draft in general. Guard was the biggest need on the team, I'd dare say that was almost a near unanimous opinion from fans and experts alike. And Spielman sat on his hands for 6 rounds before grabbing one. Then the guy he takes doesn't even make the squad.

Like I said, people seem to hang on Sparano and injuries, and yes those were very unfortunate events that did play a big part of the problem. But Spielman has been here for well over a decade and the OL has been consistently been below average during his tenure. A lot of the problems are self-inflected due to neglect and inability to scout talent.

We could've taken Cody Whitehair instead of Treadwell that might of heped some.

[Pondering Her Percy]

It wasn't just the 1st round, it was the draft in general. Guard was the biggest need on the team, I'd dare say that was almost a near unanimous opinion from fans and experts alike. And Spielman sat on his hands for 6 rounds before grabbing one. Then the guy he takes doesn't even make the squad.

Like I said, people seem to hang on Sparano and injuries, and yes those were very unfortunate events that did play a big part of the problem. But Spielman has been here for well over a decade and the OL has been consistently been below average during his tenure. A lot of the problems are self-inflected due to neglect and inability to scout talent.

It wasn't just the 1st round, it was the draft in general. Guard was the biggest need on the team, I'd dare say that was almost a near unanimous opinion from fans and experts alike. And Spielman sat on his hands for 6 rounds before grabbing one. Then the guy he takes doesn't even make the squad.

Like I said, people seem to hang on Sparano and injuries, and yes those were very unfortunate events that did play a big part of the problem. But Spielman has been here for well over a decade and the OL has been consistently been below average during his tenure. A lot of the problems are self-inflected due to neglect and inability to scout talent.

We could've taken Cody Whitehair instead of Treadwell that might of heped some.

Agreed but again, that's so easy to say now. The year we drafted Treadwell we were DESPERATE for a WR. Thielen was a special teamer and Diggs showed some promise but not under a full seasons worth. Sure we definitely needed OL too. But Treadwell could've became a stud and nobody would be talking about Whitehair ya know what I mean? Like I dont hear anyone saying we should have passed on Waynes in the first or Hunter in the 3rd to draft OT- John Doe. Of course, if it was that easy and we could dump our bad draft picks for good ones then we'd win the SB. But at the time, at least from what I can remember, guys were all over getting Treadwell and everyone thought that's what Teddy needed. It always made me wonder what Treadwell would have become if Thielen and Diggs didnt become so dominant but that will eventually be for another team to find out.

[StumpHunter]

Not drafting a guard in the early rounds because you think Remmers is a viable option and drafting Treadwell because you don’t think Theilen is the answer is an indictment of the GM, not an exoneration. If the guy can’t even properly evaluate the talent of the offensive players he currently has on the roster, how can we expect him to do a good job in FAs or in the draft?

Even the excuses for Rick being a failure make the guy look worse.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Not drafting a guard in the early rounds because you think Remmers is a viable option and drafting Treadwell because you don’t think Theilen is the answer is an indictment of the GM, not an exoneration. If the guy can’t even properly evaluate the talent of the offensive players he currently has on the roster, how can we expect him to do a good job in FAs or in the draft?

Even the excuses for Rick being a failure make the guy look worse.

Drafting Treadwell because you dont think Thielen is the answer was the same thought on every single NFL mind, fan mind and analysts mind. You dont just walk into practice and say "yup, this random white kid is probably one of the best route runners in the league and catches everything, lets go with him". I mean even a guy like Anthony Harris was undrafted but at least he went to a decent D1 college and was a big time play maker. Thielen was a playmaker but at a D2 school. I've seen playmakers at D3 schools. 99% of the time they amount to nothing. Are you really going to fault Spielman for "overlooking Thielen" and drafting Treadwell. There isnt a guy on earth that thought Adam Thielen was going to turn into what he has. I dont even think Adam himself thought that. Remmers I can understand. Even though I still think he got way better value with the combination of Hughes and O'Neill. But relying on Remmers at guard I dont agree with. Thielen I could never fault Spielman for. He is the reason Thielen is on this roster and got a shot

[VikingLord]

It wasn't just the 1st round, it was the draft in general. Guard was the biggest need on the team, I'd dare say that was almost a near unanimous opinion from fans and experts alike. And Spielman sat on his hands for 6 rounds before grabbing one. Then the guy he takes doesn't even make the squad.

Like I said, people seem to hang on Sparano and injuries, and yes those were very unfortunate events that did play a big part of the problem. But Spielman has been here for well over a decade and the OL has been consistently been below average during his tenure. A lot of the problems are self-inflected due to neglect and inability to scout talent.

I'm not suggesting Spielman is blameless for the result, or even that the offensive coaching is blameless. In regards to mansquatch's excellent analysis and original post, I'm just asking if the blame for the ultimate outcome deserves to be spread out a bit more evenly.

But yeah, Spielman certainly didn't buy himself the insurance it turned out he could have used. He bought DB insurance in the 1st round when he needed OG insurance a lot more, and he paid for that when disaster struck on the OL.

I get the sense that Spielman (and maybe Zimmer too) is a little more old-school in their approach to the two lines on a football team and the draft. That being, go for the splash high impact positions earlier in a draft. Objectively talented guys at those positions are far harder to come by later because raw athleticism can't be taught, while guys who play in the trenches aren't as dependent on raw athleticism and can be brought along in a systematic way over time. So it makes sense to see more QBs, DBs, WRs and even RBs going early. The DL and OL guys who go early are usually studs that are clearly better at their positions or have much higher ceilings due to pure athletic attributes compared to the bulk of players at those positions in a given draft class, even if they didn't demonstrate they could put those attributes to use in college (e.g. Troy Williamson and his fast 40 at the Combine...)

And not to beat a dead horse here, but it isn't just a matter of stocking up via the draft, because draft picks are hit and miss even in relatively strong classes at a given position. Plus I think there are enough examples of offensive lines around the NFL that are pretty effective despite not having a lot of highly-drafted players on them. Heck, the Patriots finished last season with one of the better overall lines and I don't think that line fielded a single player who was taken high in the draft. I think there is plenty of evidence that Spielman's overall approach can work and is justified even if the Vikings haven't been a particular example of it working well.

One thing - I don't expect it is going to change in this draft. If an obviously talented player on either side of the ball falls into Spielman's lap at #18, and that player isn't an offensive linemen, Spielman will take him, both because it matches the philosophy he believes in, but also because this is a flat OL class and I'm sure Spielman thinks he can find another O'Neill or two later in this draft.

[WallytheVike]

It wasn't just the 1st round, it was the draft in general. Guard was the biggest need on the team, I'd dare say that was almost a near unanimous opinion from fans and experts alike. And Spielman sat on his hands for 6 rounds before grabbing one. Then the guy he takes doesn't even make the squad.

Like I said, people seem to hang on Sparano and injuries, and yes those were very unfortunate events that did play a big part of the problem. But Spielman has been here for well over a decade and the OL has been consistently been below average during his tenure. A lot of the problems are self-inflected due to neglect and inability to scout talent.

I'm not suggesting Spielman is blameless for the result, or even that the offensive coaching is blameless. In regards to mansquatch's excellent analysis and original post, I'm just asking if the blame for the ultimate outcome deserves to be spread out a bit more evenly.

But yeah, Spielman certainly didn't buy himself the insurance it turned out he could have used. He bought DB insurance in the 1st round when he needed OG insurance a lot more, and he paid for that when disaster struck on the OL.

I get the sense that Spielman (and maybe Zimmer too) is a little more old-school in their approach to the two lines on a football team and the draft. That being, go for the splash high impact positions earlier in a draft. Objectively talented guys at those positions are far harder to come by later because raw athleticism can't be taught, while guys who play in the trenches aren't as dependent on raw athleticism and can be brought along in a systematic way over time. So it makes sense to see more QBs, DBs, WRs and even RBs going early. The DL and OL guys who go early are usually studs that are clearly better at their positions or have much higher ceilings due to pure athletic attributes compared to the bulk of players at those positions in a given draft class, even if they didn't demonstrate they could put those attributes to use in college (e.g. Troy Williamson and his fast 40 at the Combine...)

And not to beat a dead horse here, but it isn't just a matter of stocking up via the draft, because draft picks are hit and miss even in relatively strong classes at a given position. Plus I think there are enough examples of offensive lines around the NFL that are pretty effective despite not having a lot of highly-drafted players on them. Heck, the Patriots finished last season with one of the better overall lines and I don't think that line fielded a single player who was taken high in the draft. I think there is plenty of evidence that Spielman's overall approach can work and is justified even if the Vikings haven't been a particular example of it working well.

One thing - I don't expect it is going to change in this draft. If an obviously talented player on either side of the ball falls into Spielman's lap at #18, and that player isn't an offensive linemen, Spielman will take him, both because it matches the philosophy he believes in, but also because this is a flat OL class and I'm sure Spielman thinks he can find another O'Neill or two later in this draft.

Not sure why Speilman thinks he can find a guy in the later rounds of the draft going by past drafts him and Zimmer aren't very successful when it comes to drafting offensive lineman. For that matter they don't do a very good job of picking up free agent O-lineman.
Riley Reiff was a 1st round pick not ours but he was taken in the first round but he sure didn't play like it. Then we have O'Neil who we took in the second round but he was a project that didn't really contribute. We took Pat Elffein in the third round but has been a bit nicked up at times. The rest of the O-lineman were either not drafted or we took them late in the draft. I don't think we've done a very good job of finding lineman in the draft and it really caught up to us last year. That's why I say draft a couple big horses/tackles. I'd grab the best one when our pick comes up and if it doesn't match up with where they should be taken then we can move down to take the player we want and maybe acquire another pick. I've always felt we should take the best player available like we've done in the past but the O-line is in such bad shape we have to do it a little different this year. We have enough CB's for 2 teams and I think we're kind of set at linebacker and D-line. Also running backs and wide receivers are a dime a dozen right now so there is no need to draft one of those guys with the first pick. The only other position I'd consider using our first pick on is the Iowa tight end Hockenson. Skol Vikes!

[CharVike]

I'm not suggesting Spielman is blameless for the result, or even that the offensive coaching is blameless. In regards to mansquatch's excellent analysis and original post, I'm just asking if the blame for the ultimate outcome deserves to be spread out a bit more evenly.

But yeah, Spielman certainly didn't buy himself the insurance it turned out he could have used. He bought DB insurance in the 1st round when he needed OG insurance a lot more, and he paid for that when disaster struck on the OL.

I get the sense that Spielman (and maybe Zimmer too) is a little more old-school in their approach to the two lines on a football team and the draft. That being, go for the splash high impact positions earlier in a draft. Objectively talented guys at those positions are far harder to come by later because raw athleticism can't be taught, while guys who play in the trenches aren't as dependent on raw athleticism and can be brought along in a systematic way over time. So it makes sense to see more QBs, DBs, WRs and even RBs going early. The DL and OL guys who go early are usually studs that are clearly better at their positions or have much higher ceilings due to pure athletic attributes compared to the bulk of players at those positions in a given draft class, even if they didn't demonstrate they could put those attributes to use in college (e.g. Troy Williamson and his fast 40 at the Combine...)

And not to beat a dead horse here, but it isn't just a matter of stocking up via the draft, because draft picks are hit and miss even in relatively strong classes at a given position. Plus I think there are enough examples of offensive lines around the NFL that are pretty effective despite not having a lot of highly-drafted players on them. Heck, the Patriots finished last season with one of the better overall lines and I don't think that line fielded a single player who was taken high in the draft. I think there is plenty of evidence that Spielman's overall approach can work and is justified even if the Vikings haven't been a particular example of it working well.

One thing - I don't expect it is going to change in this draft. If an obviously talented player on either side of the ball falls into Spielman's lap at #18, and that player isn't an offensive linemen, Spielman will take him, both because it matches the philosophy he believes in, but also because this is a flat OL class and I'm sure Spielman thinks he can find another O'Neill or two later in this draft.

Not sure why Speilman thinks he can find a guy in the later rounds of the draft going by past drafts him and Zimmer aren't very successful when it comes to drafting offensive lineman. For that matter they don't do a very good job of picking up free agent O-lineman.
Riley Reiff was a 1st round pick not ours but he was taken in the first round but he sure didn't play like it. Then we have O'Neil who we took in the second round but he was a project that didn't really contribute. We took Pat Elffein in the third round but has been a bit nicked up at times. The rest of the O-lineman were either not drafted or we took them late in the draft. I don't think we've done a very good job of finding lineman in the draft and it really caught up to us last year. That's why I say draft a couple big horses/tackles. I'd grab the best one when our pick comes up and if it doesn't match up with where they should be taken then we can move down to take the player we want and maybe acquire another pick. I've always felt we should take the best player available like we've done in the past but the O-line is in such bad shape we have to do it a little different this year. We have enough CB's for 2 teams and I think we're kind of set at linebacker and D-line. Also running backs and wide receivers are a dime a dozen right now so there is no need to draft one of those guys with the first pick. The only other position I'd consider using our first pick on is the Iowa tight end Hockenson. Skol Vikes!

Rick picked Kalil at what spot? Nobody argued with the pick and he did make the pro bowl whatever that's worth. Then he went into the tank. What happened and who could project that? He now continues to bounce around the NFL. So there are dumber GMs than him. He could justify the 1st pick this year for any position. The best move would be to draft by his board. Of course a great G, not likely at 18, would be ideal but if there's a DL guy that is rated much higher that needs to be the pick. CB is about the only position to shy away from. It appears we are overstocked at that position.

[Pondering Her Percy]

It wasn't just the 1st round, it was the draft in general. Guard was the biggest need on the team, I'd dare say that was almost a near unanimous opinion from fans and experts alike. And Spielman sat on his hands for 6 rounds before grabbing one. Then the guy he takes doesn't even make the squad.

Like I said, people seem to hang on Sparano and injuries, and yes those were very unfortunate events that did play a big part of the problem. But Spielman has been here for well over a decade and the OL has been consistently been below average during his tenure. A lot of the problems are self-inflected due to neglect and inability to scout talent.

I'm not suggesting Spielman is blameless for the result, or even that the offensive coaching is blameless. In regards to mansquatch's excellent analysis and original post, I'm just asking if the blame for the ultimate outcome deserves to be spread out a bit more evenly.

But yeah, Spielman certainly didn't buy himself the insurance it turned out he could have used. He bought DB insurance in the 1st round when he needed OG insurance a lot more, and he paid for that when disaster struck on the OL.

I get the sense that Spielman (and maybe Zimmer too) is a little more old-school in their approach to the two lines on a football team and the draft. That being, go for the splash high impact positions earlier in a draft. Objectively talented guys at those positions are far harder to come by later because raw athleticism can't be taught, while guys who play in the trenches aren't as dependent on raw athleticism and can be brought along in a systematic way over time. So it makes sense to see more QBs, DBs, WRs and even RBs going early. The DL and OL guys who go early are usually studs that are clearly better at their positions or have much higher ceilings due to pure athletic attributes compared to the bulk of players at those positions in a given draft class, even if they didn't demonstrate they could put those attributes to use in college (e.g. Troy Williamson and his fast 40 at the Combine...)

And not to beat a dead horse here, but it isn't just a matter of stocking up via the draft, because draft picks are hit and miss even in relatively strong classes at a given position. Plus I think there are enough examples of offensive lines around the NFL that are pretty effective despite not having a lot of highly-drafted players on them. Heck, the Patriots finished last season with one of the better overall lines and I don't think that line fielded a single player who was taken high in the draft. I think there is plenty of evidence that Spielman's overall approach can work and is justified even if the Vikings haven't been a particular example of it working well.

One thing - I don't expect it is going to change in this draft. If an obviously talented player on either side of the ball falls into Spielman's lap at #18, and that player isn't an offensive linemen, Spielman will take him, both because it matches the philosophy he believes in, but also because this is a flat OL class and I'm sure Spielman thinks he can find another O'Neill or two later in this draft.

Good post VL! You make a lot of good points here. I posted it a while back but Shaq Mason was the earliest selection on New Englands offensive line and he was a 4th rounder. That's pretty crazy. They selected Isaiah Wynn last year in the first round but he was out the entire year. I mean I will say, there are going to be some good guards in the 2nd and 3rd round this year. Maybe even into the 4th. Jordan from Ohio St., Deiter from Wisconsin, McCoy from A&M, McGovern from Penn St., Davis from Charlotte, Scharping from Northern Illinois and even deep sleepers in Pridgeon from Ohio St., Gray from Maryland and Bonner from Arkansas St. Not one of those guys should be a first round but they should almost all land within the 2nd to 4th (maybe 5th) round. I feel like I know these guards like the back of my hand as this point because we have such a need for one lol. Dont be surprised if Risner falls to the 2nd either. His stock has been a little quiet lately.

One guy I would definitely like at 18 is Chris Lindstrom. His stock has continued to rise so I dont see him lasting until the 2nd. Bottom line is, this draft doesnt have a Quinton Nelson in it but it has a lot of quality guards. This is why guys need to understand that OL isnt a must in the first round. We arguably landed the best tackle last year in the 2nd round. Definitely the best pass blocking tackle. McGlinchey was excellent at run blocking last year but very poor in pass blocking. O'Neill was pretty much the opposite. And McGlinchey went 9th overall and O'Neill went 62nd overall which is a huge difference. We are in desperate need for a guard and picking 51st in the 2nd. There will be solid guards there and plenty of them. So if a guy like Hockenson or Sweat or whoever falls and they are too good to pass up, we gotta pull the trigger

[StumpHunter]

Not drafting a guard in the early rounds because you think Remmers is a viable option and drafting Treadwell because you don’t think Theilen is the answer is an indictment of the GM, not an exoneration. If the guy can’t even properly evaluate the talent of the offensive players he currently has on the roster, how can we expect him to do a good job in FAs or in the draft?

Even the excuses for Rick being a failure make the guy look worse.

Drafting Treadwell because you dont think Thielen is the answer was the same thought on every single NFL mind, fan mind and analysts mind. You dont just walk into practice and say "yup, this random white kid is probably one of the best route runners in the league and catches everything, lets go with him". I mean even a guy like Anthony Harris was undrafted but at least he went to a decent D1 college and was a big time play maker. Thielen was a playmaker but at a D2 school. I've seen playmakers at D3 schools. 99% of the time they amount to nothing. Are you really going to fault Spielman for "overlooking Thielen" and drafting Treadwell. There isnt a guy on earth that thought Adam Thielen was going to turn into what he has. I dont even think Adam himself thought that. Remmers I can understand. Even though I still think he got way better value with the combination of Hughes and O'Neill. But relying on Remmers at guard I dont agree with. Thielen I could never fault Spielman for. He is the reason Thielen is on this roster and got a shot

First, there were plenty of people who thought Theilen could be the answer. I will freely admit I wasn't one of them, but I do remember people wanting him to get a chance to start after the 2015 season. Besides, we as fans don't get to see everything Rick sees in practice and training camp, and we are not paid millions of dollars to evaluate talent. Being as bad as the average fan is a bad thing.

Second, he wasn't "just some random white kid". He played one game with a starter's snaps in 2015, and had 6 catches for 70 yards versus arguably the best secondary in the NFL. He had been on the roster for 2 seasons at that point, and somehow Rick has no idea what he has in him? How is that possible?

As for giving Rick credit for Thielen, the only reason Theilen was brought in was because he was a hometown kid who went to Mankato. Pure luck got us Adam Theilen.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Drafting Treadwell because you dont think Thielen is the answer was the same thought on every single NFL mind, fan mind and analysts mind. You dont just walk into practice and say "yup, this random white kid is probably one of the best route runners in the league and catches everything, lets go with him". I mean even a guy like Anthony Harris was undrafted but at least he went to a decent D1 college and was a big time play maker. Thielen was a playmaker but at a D2 school. I've seen playmakers at D3 schools. 99% of the time they amount to nothing. Are you really going to fault Spielman for "overlooking Thielen" and drafting Treadwell. There isnt a guy on earth that thought Adam Thielen was going to turn into what he has. I dont even think Adam himself thought that. Remmers I can understand. Even though I still think he got way better value with the combination of Hughes and O'Neill. But relying on Remmers at guard I dont agree with. Thielen I could never fault Spielman for. He is the reason Thielen is on this roster and got a shot

First, there were plenty of people who thought Theilen could be the answer. I will freely admit I wasn't one of them, but I do remember people wanting him to get a chance to start after the 2015 season. Besides, we as fans don't get to see everything Rick sees in practice and training camp, and we are not paid millions of dollars to evaluate talent. Being as bad as the average fan is a bad thing.

Second, he wasn't "just some random white kid". He played one game with a starter's snaps in 2015, and had 6 catches for 70 yards versus arguably the best secondary in the NFL. He had been on the roster for 2 seasons at that point, and somehow Rick has no idea what he has in him? How is that possible?

As for giving Rick credit for Thielen, the only reason Theilen was brought in was because he was a hometown kid who went to Mankato. Pure luck got us Adam Theilen.

Dude come on. I do not recall a single person on this board thinking Thielen could be the "answer". Sure some wanted to see him play more, but not one person on here wanted him to take over as a starter. Maybe out of desperation but nobody thought he was any kind of long term answer like he has been at WR. Guys are on here saying we need a receiver still going into 2019 when we have Diggs and Thielen, but are you going to sit there and say we werent desperate for one in 2016? Thielen had half of his yearly catches in one game in 2015. Diggs showed potential. After that, the cabinet was empty for the most part outside of a #3 in Wright. It's like saying we want Chad Beebe to be our #3. Well outside of one game vs Detroit, he had one catch on the year. Do you think he's our future #3? Right NOW? No. Nobody does. We all want to see him get more time but nobody is banking on him.

And in 2016 we didnt need a #3. We needed a #2, possibly a #1. If Adam Thielen didnt exist right now and we had Diggs only and an empty cupboard after that heading into 2019 , would you be saying drafting college footballs best WR in the first round would be a mistake?? And instead say "no, lets try out Chad Beebe and go in a different direction in the first round because I think Beebe could be the answer". Nobody in the right mind is just going to rely on an undrafted free agent with limited offensive snaps to just take over the reigns at #1 or #2. Its just not realistic. Look at Kurt Warner. He had Holmgren for a HC, Mariucci as a QB coach and Andy Reid as an offensive assistant in GB and he was CUT. HOW DO THEY NOT NOTICE HIM??? Right? That's what you're saying regarding Spielman. The guy was bagging groceries and gave up on the NFL after he was cut by GB. The Rams took a chance on him but the only reason he ended up being a starter was because Trent Green went down. Outside of that, nobody probably would've ever know who Kurt Warner was. You had 3 solid NFL minds that completely missed on Warners talent. Are they bad coaches now?

As for him being on the roster for two years at that point....ok? Watching him in practice and drills compared to watching him in a game are two completely different animals. Everson Griffen didnt become a starter until his 5th season. Danielle Hunter didnt become a starter until his 3rd season. And those two were actually drafted! Anthony Harris didnt become a starter until his 4th season and became the #4 safety in the entire league according to PFF. Like...it happens all the time on every NFL roster. Guys come on early or they come on late. They might be studs but dont get their opportunity until later in their career. Like you're acting like this guy was some practice hero stud in his first two years that Rick intentionally ignored and had the coaches keep him off the field. Like you could go back forever and list off guys that came on a few years or more into their career that had excellent coaches and or GMs but they still didnt play much to start out. You could literally make a never ending list of players like that. So I'm not sure where you're really trying to go with this but Thielen was looked at as a special teamer that had potential for AT BEST a #3 role on this team at the time. You wont convince me different there.

As for giving Rick credit for getting Thielen here.... the only teams to offer him contracts after his regional combine was Minnesota and Carolina. Who do you think offered him that contract? Not Rick Spielman? And when he tried out for the Vikings, he ended up making the team and someone else was cut so Thielen could be kept. Who do you think were the guys that made that cut? Not Spielman and Zimmer? Do you realize how many guys they watch/workout/give a tryout to that are from the state of Minnesota? Tons over the years. Do you know how many made it in the last 5 years? Freuchte, Thielen and Ham. In the last 10 years, add Sherels to that list. 4 guys in 10 years. Do you know how many guys they've worked out from Minnesota in the last 10 years? More than you can count. So just because he was from the state of Minnesota and went to school at Mankato doesnt mean he just gets the golden ticket onto the team. His talent WAS noticed. He was watched by our regional scouts and then offered a contract, given a tryout and kept on this team all by.....you guessed it, Rick Spielman. He could have then been cut at any time within those next few years with no penalty like many UDFA/fringe players and he wasnt. Any guess who made that decision? Rick Spielman.

Sorry but saying "pure luck brought us Adam Thielen" couldnt be more of a joke of a comment. That sounds like "I'm just being a Spielman hater" type comment to be honest. Because Spielman never had to offer him a contract, never had to give him a tryout, never had to cut someone else to keep him and never had to keep him on the roster for years following that. But he did. And that is exactly why Spielman 100% deserves a lot of credit for Adam Thielen.

[PurpleKoolaid]

First, there were plenty of people who thought Theilen could be the answer. I will freely admit I wasn't one of them, but I do remember people wanting him to get a chance to start after the 2015 season. Besides, we as fans don't get to see everything Rick sees in practice and training camp, and we are not paid millions of dollars to evaluate talent. Being as bad as the average fan is a bad thing.

Second, he wasn't "just some random white kid". He played one game with a starter's snaps in 2015, and had 6 catches for 70 yards versus arguably the best secondary in the NFL. He had been on the roster for 2 seasons at that point, and somehow Rick has no idea what he has in him? How is that possible?

As for giving Rick credit for Thielen, the only reason Theilen was brought in was because he was a hometown kid who went to Mankato. Pure luck got us Adam Theilen.

Dude come on. I do not recall a single person on this board thinking Thielen could be the "answer". Sure some wanted to see him play more, but not one person on here wanted him to take over as a starter. Maybe out of desperation but nobody thought he was any kind of long term answer like he has been at WR. Guys are on here saying we need a receiver still going into 2019 when we have Diggs and Thielen, but are you going to sit there and say we werent desperate for one in 2016? Thielen had half of his yearly catches in one game in 2015. Diggs showed potential. After that, the cabinet was empty for the most part outside of a #3 in Wright. It's like saying we want Chad Beebe to be our #3. Well outside of one game vs Detroit, he had one catch on the year. Do you think he's our future #3? Right NOW? No. Nobody does. We all want to see him get more time but nobody is banking on him.

And in 2016 we didnt need a #3. We needed a #2, possibly a #1. If Adam Thielen didnt exist right now and we had Diggs only and an empty cupboard after that heading into 2019 , would you be saying drafting college footballs best WR in the first round would be a mistake?? And instead say "no, lets try out Chad Beebe and go in a different direction in the first round because I think Beebe could be the answer". Nobody in the right mind is just going to rely on an undrafted free agent with limited offensive snaps to just take over the reigns at #1 or #2. Its just not realistic. Look at Kurt Warner. He had Holmgren for a HC, Mariucci as a QB coach and Andy Reid as an offensive assistant in GB and he was CUT. HOW DO THEY NOT NOTICE HIM??? Right? That's what you're saying regarding Spielman. The guy was bagging groceries and gave up on the NFL after he was cut by GB. The Rams took a chance on him but the only reason he ended up being a starter was because Trent Green went down. Outside of that, nobody probably would've ever know who Kurt Warner was. You had 3 solid NFL minds that completely missed on Warners talent. Are they bad coaches now?

As for him being on the roster for two years at that point....ok? Watching him in practice and drills compared to watching him in a game are two completely different animals. Everson Griffen didnt become a starter until his 5th season. Danielle Hunter didnt become a starter until his 3rd season. And those two were actually drafted! Anthony Harris didnt become a starter until his 4th season and became the #4 safety in the entire league according to PFF. Like...it happens all the time on every NFL roster. Guys come on early or they come on late. They might be studs but dont get their opportunity until later in their career. Like you're acting like this guy was some practice hero stud in his first two years that Rick intentionally ignored and had the coaches keep him off the field. Like you could go back forever and list off guys that came on a few years or more into their career that had excellent coaches and or GMs but they still didnt play much to start out. You could literally make a never ending list of players like that. So I'm not sure where you're really trying to go with this but Thielen was looked at as a special teamer that had potential for AT BEST a #3 role on this team at the time. You wont convince me different there.

As for giving Rick credit for getting Thielen here.... the only teams to offer him contracts after his regional combine was Minnesota and Carolina. Who do you think offered him that contract? Not Rick Spielman? And when he tried out for the Vikings, he ended up making the team and someone else was cut so Thielen could be kept. Who do you think were the guys that made that cut? Not Spielman and Zimmer? Do you realize how many guys they watch/workout/give a tryout to that are from the state of Minnesota? Tons over the years. Do you know how many made it in the last 5 years? Freuchte, Thielen and Ham. In the last 10 years, add Sherels to that list. 4 guys in 10 years. Do you know how many guys they've worked out from Minnesota in the last 10 years? More than you can count. So just because he was from the state of Minnesota and went to school at Mankato doesnt mean he just gets the golden ticket onto the team. His talent WAS noticed. He was watched by our regional scouts and then offered a contract, given a tryout and kept on this team all by.....you guessed it, Rick Spielman. He could have then been cut at any time within those next few years with no penalty like many UDFA/fringe players and he wasnt. Any guess who made that decision? Rick Spielman.

Sorry but saying "pure luck brought us Adam Thielen" couldnt be more of a joke of a comment. That sounds like "I'm just being a Spielman hater" type comment to be honest. Because Spielman never had to offer him a contract, never had to give him a tryout, never had to cut someone else to keep him and never had to keep him on the roster for years following that. But he did. And that is exactly why Spielman 100% deserves a lot of credit for Adam Thielen.

So Rick knew what a talent Theilen was, but waited to pick him up until he was undrafted. ok, gotcha LOLOLOL