Vikings Message Board.Com

Dames wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:13 am

Cliff wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:22 am I'd like to see the entire field there. If there's a defender sitting in zone (circled below) given the way AT is running that could be an INT. Even a pick 6.

From the All 22 when he initially drops back Thielen is very covered:


A split second later Kirk getting major heat from behind. Thielen is coming open, but it's too late by then:


This is the shot everyone is showing from the other angle. I think maybe he could have stepped up and fired it to Thielen instead of looking back at Murray, but he was also running for his life. But, yes, Thielen was open then. Kirk had his back turned already:


Just to finish this....this is in the same second, where 99 beats his blocks and is about to hit Kirk (which he does):

Those are awesome. Thank you.

The only thing I think Cousins could have done better (pic sequence) is to step up in the pocket early to help Murray with the block. Also, QBs throw into space, with the inside defender turned around, he could have anticipated where Thielen (or Diggs) will be and throw early (like he used to do) But that can happen only if he steps up.


As far as the OPs question:
YES! But maybe he can develop into a good QB next year. I'll live with his pocket presence and immobility if he can just be more clutch under pressure situations

Even if he steps up the defender is still coming in from behind. He has no shot to get the ball to Thielen. That was 100% going to be a fumble if he tries to throw it.

808vikingsfan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:32 pm The only thing I think Cousins could have done better (pic sequence) is to step up in the pocket early to help Murray with the block. Also, QBs throw into space, with the inside defender turned around, he could have anticipated where Thielen (or Diggs) will be and throw early (like he used to do) But that can happen only if he steps up.


As far as the OPs question:
YES! But maybe he can develop into a good QB next year. I'll live with his pocket presence and immobility if he can just be more clutch under pressure situations

Pocket presence is no small thing and EVERY good QB has it. I don't know how a QB in the NFL can be successful long term without it.

On this play, Rogers uses his athleticism to avoid the pressure up the middle, runs to his left and hits Thielen or Rudolph (after he leaks out into the flat).

Brady, anticipates where the pressure will come from, sees an opening to his left, and moves the pocket over, giving his blockers a better angle to block for him, and giving Murray a chance to put another block on the blitzing LBer. He hits easily hits Theilen for 10.

Cousins does neither of those things, and instead, doesn’t move until it is too late, panics and throws the ball backwards to his RB.

THAT is the difference between greatness and mediocrity.

Speaking of mediocrity, what the heck was Rudolph doing on that play? Either someone called out a horrible protection before the snap or Rudolph is a moron.

PacificNorseWest wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:42 pm Even if he steps up the defender is still coming in from behind. He has no shot to get the ball to Thielen. That was 100% going to be a fumble if he tries to throw it.

The thing to do would have been to move to his left where the blitzing LBer had just come from. Murray then could have reestablished his block on the only guy fast enough to run Cousins down.

Of course, one of the only times Cousins did run to his left, he gave Seattle a TD, so maybe that isn't the best route for him to take?

Maybe that was the actual design and we're witnessing Defilippo's genius. Murray was supposed to come off the block, get the ball like a screen, and run it to the left. Yeah! That's it. It was allllll planned! Sure, Murray chases the guy after he completely misses the block but that's all part of the fake. Checkmate.

PacificNorseWest wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:42 pm Even if he steps up the defender is still coming in from behind. He has no shot to get the ball to Thielen. That was 100% going to be a fumble if he tries to throw it.

Watching the video, you are right actually. He had turned his back because the defender grabbed his arm and he spun trying to get away. There's really no way he could have turned back forward, set his feet, and throw it in time.

On that play we had EIGHT guys in pass protection and they still got pressure with roughly five rushers (LBs look like they're spying). You can't max protect more than that and Cousins still has to scramble.

It's an interesting call because the only two receivers running routes are very close to one another but Thielen does find an opening. If there's even halfway decent pass protection, and there should have been given the personnel dedicated to it, that's a first down.

PacificNorseWest wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:42 pm Even if he steps up the defender is still coming in from behind. He has no shot to get the ball to Thielen. That was 100% going to be a fumble if he tries to throw it.

I'll have to watch the play again but if Cousins steps forward, Murray should have a better angle to push the defender out of the play so he can't get Cousins from behind. Again, I'll have to watch. It's hard to determine speed with just stills.

S197 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:05 pm On that play we had EIGHT guys in pass protection and they still got pressure with roughly five rushers (LBs look like they're spying). You can't max protect more than that and Cousins still has to scramble.

It's an interesting call because the only two receivers running routes are very close to one another but Thielen does find an opening. If there's even halfway decent pass protection, and there should have been given the personnel dedicated to it, that's a first down.

Agreed, this is all on the poor blocking. Murray blew his block. 51 was a LB blitzing off the edge that simply ran by Murray. What's interesting is Rudolph motioned in and sat right where the blitzer was coming, but at the snap he immediately floated down the line ( almost like he was going to run a screen) and set up a triple team on the DE on the opposite end of the line. I'm really not sure what the point of that was, but if he had stayed home, the LB would have been double-teamed by him and Murray, and the play is probably successful.

808vikingsfan wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:16 pm

PacificNorseWest wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:42 pm Even if he steps up the defender is still coming in from behind. He has no shot to get the ball to Thielen. That was 100% going to be a fumble if he tries to throw it.

I'll have to watch the play again but if Cousins steps forward, Murray , Murray should have a better angle to push the defender out of the play so he can't get Cousins from behind. Again, I'll have to watch. It's hard to determine speed with just stills.

For sure! Even with video, you have to watch it a many times to really see the big picture.

S197 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:13 pm Cousins is an above average QB that isn't elite enough to elevate an offense on his own. This is why I said before the season started the draft was botched with the neglect of the O-line. It was a baffling mistake that should cost Spielman and maybe Zimmer their jobs. And it will because Rick's job is tied to Cousins success. You simply can't make such a huge decision and not perform. If they dick around with the line again this offseason grabbing a bunch of 5th/6th round guards and journeymen, heads will roll.

It's just a shame an entire season was wasted on a mistake that frankly every armchair GM in the room could see from a mile away. Sparano and Easton were obviously unfortunate and unforeseen losses but they never would have crippled the offense like it is if Rick had a better contingency plan. It makes no sense to have so much secondary depth and nothing on the O-line. We went the entire offseason with Cornelius Edison running with the 1s for crying out loud. Don't even get me started on Remmers...

I agree with your post for sure. I keep saying that Flip was trying to make Cousins something he is not. Even the "great" Aaron Rodgers cant pull his team out of the crapper. Nor has he been back to a SB in 7 years. I feel like Washington did the same with Cousins. They had a good OL and good WRs his first year or two but their running game was very weak. Especially when McVay left. They also had defense ranked in the bottom 4 ALL 3 years Cousins started there. Cousins has what he needs around him to succeed here. However, it was poorly managed by our OC. If you put balance into this offense, utilize Dalvin Cook and not just Theilen and Diggs, along with a good defense, I think this team could be great. But yes, OL is an issue.

As for the OL, I agree that it has not been very well put together. However, here is my take on all of this....

Did we NEED Mike Hughes? No. But I've said from the beginning, is the combination of Hughes and Oneill any worse than the combination of Hernandez and Josh Jackson? FWIW, Jackson has been pretty brutal all year ranking as the #93 CB according to pff. Hernandez has been solid but is he so good that he's turning an entire OL around? No. The giants OL is still very bad. Point is, whether it was Hernandez or O'Neill, they are both good prospects but cant turn an OL around.

In the last two years, I think Spielman has done a good job trying to improve it. Last year he signed Reiff and Remmers, drafted Elfein and drafted O'Neill this year. I think it was their fault that they relied on Remmers so much at RG. Because he is not the answer that's for sure. If all worked out, I think Reiff, Easton, Elflein, Remmers and Oneill would be a good starting group IF Remmers was actually a decent guard and Easton didnt get hurt. We are currently in guard hell right now. That falls on Spielman. He relied on Easton (who was probably one of our weak links to begin with) and Remmers.

I think he made a HUGE mistake letting Gossett walk. He is now starting for Arizona and has actually graded out pretty well in both run and pass blocking. I liked him when we drafted him. Why we let him go is beyond me. Instead we keep a dud like Compton. I dont care if Compton knows Cousins or not, he isnt good. One thing that does bother me with Zim is the fact that he takes SO long to plug in rookies. Especially on the OL. Think about it, if Hill didnt get hurt, Oneill would probably still be on the bench. I feel like he looked at Gossett and said "no he's not ready" and they let him walk. He never gave him a chance to develop and that would have happened with Oneill if Hill didnt go down. Also, why do we continue to watch our guards suffer and leave Jones on the bench? I dont get it.

Overall, I think the #1 mistake THIS YEAR was letting Gossett walk. Most wont agree but he could be an Easton replacement and he's now gone. The only way anyone would be satisfied with the OL this year is if we drafted BOTH Hernandez and Oneill in the first and second. Which I think would have been a good idea, but unrealistic with Spielman and Zim (which is a problem). But Gossett was an EXCELLENT value pick and we let him walk. I do NOT want to throw a bunch of money away on FA OL. We need to continue to draft. A depth piece or two in FA? Sure. But draft our starters and PLUG THEM IN Zim.

In the offseason, our FA OL are Jones, Easton, Compton and Hill.

-Resign Jones as depth.
-Resign Easton (on a cheap deal due to injury otherwise let walk).
-Let Hill walk (unless its for vet minumum)
-Let Compton walk.
-Cut Remmers.

That leaves us with:

Tackles: Reiff, O'Neill, Collins
Guards: Isidora (possible Easton) (possible Jones)
Centers: Elflein (possible Easton) (possible Jones)

Come free agency time, I say get an average to above average OG to plug in on one side and depth at tackle

Then come draft time, draft an OG early. One of my favorites this year is Cody Ford from Oklahoma. I say find another 2 depth pieces in the mid to later rounds.

That gives us starters of:

LT: Reiff
LG: 1st round rookie
C: Elflein
RG: FA acquisition
RT: O'Neill

Depth of: Collins, Isidora, FA pickups and draft picks (possible Easton and/or Jones)

I actually liked Daniels at center and Elflein at guard. Elf is good in space. Also I think a lot of fans think Elflein is a lot better than he is, he's an average center but nothing noteworthy.

Or Hernandez as has been mentioned. I don't know why we needed to go Josh Jackson in the 2nd, we picked up Hill as a UDFA so clearly the position had depth but I agree it was unlikely with Rick and Zimmer and that's a problem.

We can run through the scenarios but it will be just like last year. We were talking about Hernandez, Wynn, Ragnar, Daniels etc all year and they passed on virtually all of them. And now we have bigger holes to fill assuming they let Barr or Richardson walk.

That's what is most irritating, we absolutely needed a guard and corner was a huge luxury pick. Nearly every position outside O-line was set to some degree. Going back to back OL is a fine strategy especially when you just gave a guy 84M fully guaranteed. It doesn't give me a lot of faith that this is finally the year Rick figures out his 10 pick shotgun approach simply hasn't worked with lineman.

Well that is Brian winzmann and Gosset who came from our practice squad and are starting for other teams. Who is responsible for evaluating our offensive talent? Somebodies head should roll.


Trevor Ruszkowski-USA TODAY Sports

Colby Gosset: The Cardinals are intrigued with what he could do. He wasn't bad against the Lions on Sunday. According to PFF, he allowed a sack, but that was the only pressure he gave up in pass protection. He also graded highly in run blocking, earning a 78.8 in that category.

Well that is Brian winzmann and Gosset who came from our practice squad and are starting for other teams. Who is responsible for evaluating our offensive talent? Somebodies head should roll.

Could a mod delete this...double post
Thank you