Vikings Final Four Wins analysis (Ponder)

[jackal]

To be honest I have wanted Kyle Orton as our QB for a while ..

I think with him we could be a real contender the guy has played well
with the Bears, Bronco's and Dallas as a back up

He reminds of Doug Flutie a lot, he wins games in the NFL and yet
teams want a guy who on paper should be better but isn't honestly.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_duh-V_87U0

[The Breeze]

Keeping with theme of fruit...ripe or not. If you provide the necessary nourishment and balanced soil for the tree, the fruit takes care of itself~

[Eli]

Keeping with theme of fruit...ripe or not. If you provide the necessary nourishment and balanced soil for the tree, the fruit takes care of itself~

Then gets eaten by birds.

[SLCVikefan]

Falls off the tree and is mower meat!

[Demi]

Ponder is like picking fruit from a new tree. You really don't know if and when you're gonna get good fruit.

More like picking a piece of rotten fruit and thinking we can somehow find a way to make it good again.

Over two years of work in, and it's still pretty well rotten. But we'll keep trying!

Other people are just happy with whatever fruit they get. As long as it's "their" fruit.

What all of this proves is Ponder can do What is necessary for us to win ball games.

So could TJoke and Gus Frerotte. Fat lot of good that did us. There are dozens of backup QBs who can win games when everything is going well. You need someone who can hold their own when they're not.

[Mothman]

Hmmm, the fruit discussion is getting a little weird but this thread has had some great posts since I last checked it earlier today! VikingHoard, Mansquatch and Mondry, your posts in particular were excellent. I really appreciated VikingHoard's thoughts about the relevance of how we conduct ourselves when discussing these topics. That was good stuff and Mansquatch, I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head with your post. Consistency really is the question when it comes to Ponder. He's shown he can do the job but he hasn't shown he can do it consistently enough to lock it down and instill confidence in everyone from ownership right down to us dedicated fans. All we can really do is wait and watch. If Ponder has "the right stuff", it should become considerably more apparent over the course of this season.

[PacificNorseWest]

That's how almost everyone in the world would look at it but I disagree. To me, "being right" or "being wrong" is first about how you conduct yourself during a discussion, and only secondly about the honesty with which you examined the evidence and the validity with which you drew your conclusion. Notice that whether the conclusion later "proves", (in quotes because more evidence can often come even later "proving" something else), to be true has no bearing, in my opinion, on whether you were right or wrong.

Take for example, Pete Prisco back when Favre joined the Vikes. The man was livid and all his columns reflected that. There was no room for the possibility of Favre succeeding in Minnesota in any of his many columns, which were so hate-filled and ranting I can find no better description for them than a many months-long temper tantrum. Day after day, column after column he repeatedly called Favre names, condemned him for retiring and then unretiring as if it were the single most despicable act an athlete could do. He insulted the Vikings for taking him, and even dragged his wife Deanna into it, calling her a "media whore" and saying she wouldn't let Favre retire because she refused to give up the "attention spotlight". Finally, I believe it was in week 10, Pete Prisco acknowledged that Favre was doing a good job as the Vikings QB with the following sentence, "I was wrong, what of it?".

You might think Prisco should have done more to "eat crow" and that had Favre succeeded he would have been justified to say "I told you so" but I think he was wrong regardless of what Favre did. First off, he didn't conduct himself in a manner befitting the dignity of an 8 year old, let alone a professional sports writer. Secondly, he was obviously drawing his belief about how Favre would perform from his emotions, rather than an objective analysis of the facts. This isn't to say that a person couldn't believe rationally that Favre was going to fail in MN. A man I know IRL told me he thought that, and his reasoning was that he felt age had finally caught up to Bret and that he hadn't shown the arm strength or accuracy with the Jets that made him famous in Green Bay. He also acknowledged that there was still a good chance Favre could succeed, or do average. He thought that Favre failing was only the most likely of the three possibilities, not that it was guaranteed. He never insulted anyone and his reasoning was based on valid analysis of the evidence which he'd seen, (note that you can never say "all evidence"), and a realistic understanding of the possibility that his belief was going to be incorrect. Therefore, I wouldn't say he was wrong. I don't think he needed to eat crow, and I'm sure he wouldn't have enjoyed saying "I told you so" after seeing Favre and the Vikes fail.

Getting back to Delaqure's post, I am one of the Ponder detractors. I don't expect him to do well. I don't say that there's no chance he'll be good, but I do think it unlikely. I'm not going to call him names or hate him or anything for it, and I hope that he indeed does great things and becomes the franchise player we've all longed for. Should it happen, you won't get to see me eat crow, as I still won't see myself as having been wrong, only my belief. And even then it would only be true that with the addition of new evidence my old belief would no longer supported by the entirety of what I've seen. None of which would have anything to do with me being wrong. On the flip side, if he does as I expect you won't have to hear me say I told you so either.

Spot on, my man. Insightful and articulated perfectly. Love this kind of stuff.

[Delaqure]

That's how almost everyone in the world would look at it but I disagree. To me, "being right" or "being wrong" is first about how you conduct yourself during a discussion, and only secondly about the honesty with which you examined the evidence and the validity with which you drew your conclusion.

I think you are spot on here and that's exactly the problem I have with those that adamantly proclaim Ponder a failure. They do not objectively look at ALL the facts. The OP did so. Most, not all, of the heavy detractors look at Ponder in a bubble. They do not adequately nor objectively consider the game plan, the score, the talent around him and the other factors that are so eloquently presented by the OP. The claim of honesty in evaluation falls flat in the face of unobjectivity. (Is that word?) That is why I remain on the fence here. I really see this as the year where he should take some major steps forward simply because of the talent acquired by the team which should allow the coaches to open up the Playbook a bit more. Of course all of that could change with injuries. Baring that this should be Ponders proving year.

[The Breeze]

They are guilty of failing to objectify their own objectivity. They have a blindspot based on some unrealistic expectation. Anyone, who views it differently is labelled an apologist. It's football fundamentalism......the dogma of the impotent.

[SLCVikefan]

They are guilty of failing to objectify their own objectivity. They have a blindspot based on some unrealistic expectation. Anyone, who views it differently is labelled an apologist. It's football fundamentalism......the dogma of the impotent.

Preach it!
Damn football terrorists.

[The Breeze]

Preach it!
Damn football terrorists.

It's a conspiracy.....man! You been in SLC long?

[SLCVikefan]

Moved here in 85 from Portland, Or.

[The Breeze]

Moved here in 85 from Portland, Or.

Funny...I was born in Cedar City, now I live in So. Oregon.

SLC is a pretty nice city......nice to have someone on the board from there~

[SLCVikefan]

Funny...I was born in Cedar City, now I live in So. Oregon.

SLC is a pretty nice city......nice to have someone on the board from there~

I lived in Kfalls for a couple of years.

[The Breeze]

I lived in Kfalls for a couple of years.

Nice. I spent a year and a half in PTown going to school, but it was after you'd left. I studied 'apologist theory ' and 'post modern homerism'.....didn't get my degree though.