Vikings Message Board.Com

Mothman wrote:Because fans want a superstar, bomb-throwing Super Bowl-winning QB and like Veruca Salt in Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, they want him NOW

No, fans want to see growth in their young quarterback. Many of us said it at the outset of this season: the single most important aspect of this season's rebuilding will be seeing that Christian Ponder makes clear progress in his quest to become a franchise QB. We saw him take a small step earlier in the season, but since then, he's take several steps back, and it's worrying. Anybody who says Ponder's performance today doesn't concern them is either a liar or a fool.

PurpleMustReign wrote: Yes and I wish he would do that more if something isn't open. Or, run with the ball if he can gain a couple of yards.

This is why I don't get his picks. He just needs to throw it away. This should be an easy thing to fix, so I still have faith in him.

PurpleMustReign wrote:Christian Ponder and the passing game--- W...T...F... The worse game since Spergeon Wynn was QB.

AD- Best RB in the NFL bar none.

Walsh and Kluwe- awesome games for both.

Defense- Not great but got the job done.

In my myopic book, there is no such thing as a bad win (at least if the team stays healthy), just as there is no such thing as a good loss.

But there is such a thing as a bad quarterback. And methinks we have one.

Seriously, Ponder might be good enough to take a team to the playoffs, but I don't think he's the ultimate solution for those of us looking for the Vikings second NFL Title (and the first one that REALLY counts). Maybe we can luck into picking up another aging vet like Randall Cunningham in the late 90s and Brett Favre a few years back -- and maybe by then, we'll have gotten an upgrade at wide receiver.

But hey, it's nice to be 5-2. It sure beats 2-5. And I really enjoyed the defensive line play, Adrian Peterson (not too shabby for a guy who is still slowed by injury), Percy Harvin, and BOTH of our first round draft picks.

Skol Vikings!

petev_sj wrote: Me too. One...just 1, Superbowl victory is good enough for me. 0 for 4 hurts more then you can imagine.

Oh, heck yes. I'd settle for a Superbowl victory won on penalty kicks (after a 0-0 tie in regulation).

Any way to get the ring will do. Any plan that doesn't involve getting the ring will not.

mefford76 wrote: This is why I don't get his picks. He just needs to throw it away. This should be an easy thing to fix, so I still have faith in him.

According to Ponder in his news conference today. He was trying to throw the ball away, his arms got hit before he could release it. Not making excuses. He should have that internal clock in his head that he can't keep the ball that long.

Here is the video of the post game conference from NFL.com

http://www.nfl.com/videos/minnesota-vik ... conference

Eli wrote: No, fans want to see growth in their young quarterback. Many of us said it at the outset of this season: the single most important aspect of this season's rebuilding will be seeing that Christian Ponder makes clear progress in his quest to become a franchise QB. We saw him take a small step earlier in the season, but since then, he's take several steps back, and it's worrying. Anybody who says Ponder's performance today doesn't concern them is either a liar or a fool.

So who's saying that? Absolutely nobody, as far as I can tell.

According to stats from NFL.com, Ponder is improving:

In 2011 (over 11 games - 10 starts) his passer rating was 70.1 with a completion rating of 54.3% and 1852 yards
In 2012 (over 7 games - 7 starts) his passer rating is 87.5 with a completion percentage of 67.0% and 1491 yards (this will extrapolate out to 2130 yards once he has 10 games completed)

He is, however, significantly regressing in his last 3 games posting passer ratings of 35.5 (47.1% completion rate), 83.2 (67.3% completion rate), and 87.6 (71.4% completion rate) against Arizona, Washington, and Tennessee, respectively. I think that is the "trend" that is causing concern, but the fact is: He has improved (so far) when compared to last season.

Mothman wrote: So who's saying that? Absolutely nobody, as far as I can tell.

But some are saying, oh, the Oline is bad, our WRs, even after having Simpson back, are bad, Musgrave is bad, etc. The fact of the matter is, IMO, Ponder is bad. He looks even worse when I watch other team with real QBs play. They get hit, knocked around, throw tight pass, long passes, to WRs ive never even heard of. Ponder has the weapons. He just cant make the reads. And I, after hearing about how smart he was, thought the mental part of the game would be easier for him. I hope by the end of the year we aernt having these discussions.

Mothman wrote:From Kevin Siefert:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth
Yes, that's the point. The team is 5-2 to start a rebuilding year and undefeated at home. As far as I'm concerned, it's exciting and a great sign for the future. Spielman and Frazier clearly have the team heading in the right direction so far and hopefully, that will continue. I think the Vikes are building a solid base for the future with rookies and young veterans making significant contributions to the team's success. The future of the QB position seems constantly on everybody's mind but all we can do is go along for that ride and see what happens. Whether Ponder is the answer or not, the team is winning and more importantly, winning as a team, with each unit picking up for the others when they struggle.

I loved that quote from Frazier's press conference.

Go Vikes!

While I understand exactly what you're saying and i'd for sure rather be 5-2 than not be 5-2. I agree that units are coming together and there seems to be vast improvement. I'm surely excited about that, but I just have a feeling the most important position, QB isn't answered yet. As the 49'ers have shown us, being good at all those other areas only takes you so far. I'm curbing my enthusiasm, anyway!

I know Ponder is young and developing, I haven't written him off either, but I think these performances are unacceptable at any stage. 58 yards passing and 2 very bad picks. I don't care if you're playing the 2000 ravens D, that's horrible.

I could handle the bad with the good, if he was coming up with explosive plays and the occasional int but this is already a very conservative offense so turnovers go from "hey they happen" to "they can't happen" if we want to beat playoff teams.

I think the team winning right now takes some of the heat off but I'm not sure how long that can last. He had a number of balls dropped that could have been picks in the games he played "turnover free" I'm very aware you have to catch them to be ints but I don't think you can just write them off either, not when he throws 6 picks in the next 3 games. So maybe this "problem" actually goes a little further back as well.

Just Me wrote:[My conclusion (since the Vikes are 5-2 and the Texans are 6-1) is that this must be an effective strategy, why are we (not CalVike - but others in general) complaining about this again?

My concern is this. The Cardinals weren't good enough to shut down the running game, but they did stymie the passing game. My fear is that teams learn from what is put on film week-to-week. Better teams will key stopping the run and the short passing game.

Will the offensive output be strong enough to win in those scenarios? Maybe. The team IS winning after all. But it's worthy of discussion I think. And the difference today was a defensive TD while the difference in the win vs the Lions was special teams.

mefford76 wrote:rules question: when a QB is outside the tackle box they are allowed to throw the ball out of bounds not even close to a WR correct?

Ball has to make it back to the line of scrimmage too, but otherwise yes

Here's what I see

- Defenses now are taking away what the Vikings and Ponder were doing earlier in the season. The short, quick hitters to Harvin that Harvin was turning into long gainers on his own are not there anymore.
- The INT's were bad today, but what really bothered me about Ponder was his failure to recognize the play clock was almost out on the one play in the 2nd quarter when Frazier saved his behind by calling a timeout. A pro QB has to know where the play clock is and has to be able to either call for a quick snap or timeout. Ponder was oblivious to that. For a rookie it might be forgivable. For a 2nd year starter, not so much.
- Ponder's refusal to probe the middle and deep parts of the field is frustrating. His complete refusal to throw the ball away when under duress is maddening. It's one thing to have a few bad plays like that provided they are balanced by some good plays. Ponder is getting to the point where the good plays aren't there, but these horrible plays are becoming more common. Most of these floaters seem to come when Ponder is not stepping up in the pocket under pressure, but trying to escape to the side and backwards.
- 4 yards passing in a half of football is not worthy of a pro QB. I've seen some bad performances in my day, but that had to rank among the worst I've ever seen. There has got to be more there for the taking. I don't care if the receivers stink, the oline can't block, or it's raining cats and dogs - 4 yards passing is unreal. May as well not even bother throwing.

I hope Ponder can get the ship righted and soon. Defenses have adjusted to his tendencies. He now has to show he can adjust to theirs. He simply has to take more shots down the field. He has to stop trying to escape pressure by moving sideways. He has to stop throwing into the field when he's backpedaling or jumping.

Vikings show new swagger in rout of Titans

Knoxnews.com via Strib wrote:Consider this scenario from midway through the fourth quarter Sunday at Mall of America Field: The Vikings led Tennessee 23-7 and seemed content with pocketing their third consecutive victory without trying to raise the degree of difficulty. Head coach Leslie Frazier had a simple directive for his offense: Run until you can’t run anymore. Drain the clock. Put the blowout away.

But offensive coordinator Bill Musgrave wanted more. Like a hyper 8-year-old trying to convince the baby sitter to let him stay up until midnight, Musgrave fought to get his way. Frazier asserted that “using the clock was more important than a touchdown.” Musgrave insisted he could get seven points with his next play call.

“OK,” Frazier relented, “call it.”

So on second-and-5 from the Tennessee 15, Musgrave dialed up his home run call for tight end Kyle Rudolph. Quarterback Christian Ponder threw the pass, recognizing man-to-man coverage against Rudolph on a corner route. So what the heck? Ponder fired high and deep into the back of the end zone. And Rudolph, blanketed by safety Michael Griffin and then sandwiched by Jordan Babineaux, simply used those magnetic, dinner plate-sized hands of his to haul in a ridiculous 15-yard touchdown. That was the exclamation point on the Vikings’ 30-7 blowout. And it left Frazier chuckling away on the sideline.

“I turned around and looked at (Musgrave) and said, ‘Good job, Bill,’ ” Frazier said. “So much for using clock and running the ball.”

So, what can be made of this? Perhaps that Musgrave would be more aggressive in his playcalling if more frequently left to his own devices? Musgrave wasn't around when Chillyball got started. And that's what most of this offense continues to resemble, as many here point out (correctly) time after time, which to me lands at the feet of the head coach. I don't mean to say that Musgrave and Ponder have no culpability here for the decreased QB play...they have plenty. I just think that Frazier's old-school ground-and-pound mentality, combined with his seemingly full indoctrination into the low-risk, low-reward "KOA" of Major Brad lore, limits his openness to innovating and adapting the offense.

CalVike wrote: My concern is this. The Cardinals weren't good enough to shut down the running game, but they did stymie the passing game. My fear is that teams learn from what is put on film week-to-week. Better teams will key stopping the run and the short passing game.

Will the offensive output be strong enough to win in those scenarios? Maybe. The team IS winning after all. But it's worthy of discussion I think. And the difference today was a defensive TD while the difference in the win vs the Lions was special teams.

While that maybe true of the Vikings, Houston's last win was a "blowout" and they too, seem to average a low "pass distance from LOS." I'm saying that there are many things to be critical of in a QBs performance, especially the one Ponder turned in yesterday. "Average distance of pass in the air from scrimmage" isn't one of them as it doesn't seem to be an indicator of anything (other than success for the Vikings and Texans). It would be different if Ponder had not ever connected on mid or deep range passes, but he has shown he can (especially in "crunch" time when even when supposedly "good" QBs fail). So other than the fact that people seem focused on this stat, it (to me anyway) really says nothing other than the Vikings are running a "short pass" offense.

I think your conclusion is right that the other teams will key in on stopping the "short game" but let's face it: We all figured out "who the Vikes were" several games ago. This is/was bound to happen. Either Ponder/Musgrave will adjust or not and Ponder's ability in these games (regardless of wins or losses) will be beneficial for those of us who are still trying to decide what kind of QB Ponder will be. I want him (Ponder) to succeed or fail miserably so we do NOT have a Jackson (part II) where people are saying "Ponder just needs a chance" five years hence. Having said that: I think those who are ready to pronounce him a "bust" after 1 year must have far more ability to evaluate QB talent than I do. I simply need more time to make that evaluation. My only question to them is: If your insights are truly that accurate then you also predicted Newton would struggle this year too, right?

My post-game thoughts:

Our tackling was putrid. Not sure why, it's been pretty good so far this year.
Penalties. Sheesh. Penalties.
Love our record, but our upcoming schedule will make folks a heckuva lot less giddy about being 5-2 (and I say that thinking we have a great shot at 6-2). I see only 2.5 wins after the Tampa game. 5-3 could easily end up being 7-9. Or worse.
And at the risk of offending Emily Post or some other bastion of "good manners in the online world", I will quote myself from almost a year ago:
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psjordan
Post subject: Re: The future.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:10 pm

… Ponder is our Sanchez.