Vikings Message Board.Com

808vikingsfan wrote: BUT...

If Flacco didn't perform like an elite QB in the playoffs, they wouldn't have won the superbowl. His post season numbers were godlike . Same with Ben, he turned it up when needed. Having a great QB can make up for the teams other deficiencies. Look at GB for the past couple of years. Imagine where they would be without Rodgers. If they had a decent running game or better defense, my guess it they would've been in the SB more often. So yes, it takes a team effort to win a SB, but having an elite QB increases your odds tremendously.

I'm just pointing out Ponder's last game (the Packer game in MN) might as well been a playoff game as it was Win=In and Lose=Out. (He was injured in that game). He "stepped it up" as you say and engineered a crucial 4th quarter drive to seal the win (even with AD running roughshod over the Packers). The next week (without Ponder) - Webb couldn't do anything and Peterson never broke 100 yards.

Ponder's last stat line for his "playoff" game was 16 Comp, 28 ATT, 234 Yds, 3 TDs, 0 INT. Seems pretty decent me...

Just Me wrote: I'm just pointing out Ponder's last game (the Packer game in MN) might as well been a playoff game

Not really, the packers were in the playoffs either way and it was at home. I don't think that quite matches a playoff game(especially a road playoff game) where both teams are playing for their lives vs just one team.

Crax wrote: Not really, the packers were in the playoffs either way and it was at home. I don't think that quite matches a playoff game(especially a road playoff game) where both teams are playing for their lives vs just one team.

There was still seeding to be determined yet, so I think you are dismissing this game a little too quickly. I"ll grant that it was a home game, but what about the victory in Houston then? The fact is he didn't play in a playoff game because of his injury, but any close approximation to a playoff game that we can evaluate, he did OK.

Just Me wrote: There was still seeding to be determined yet, so I think you are dismissing this game a little too quickly. I"ll grant that it was a home game, but what about the victory in Houston then? The fact is he didn't play in a playoff game because of his injury, but any close approximation to a playoff game that we can evaluate, he did OK.

Had Green Bay won that game, the Bears would have made the playoffs instead of the Vikings. The Packers would have had a first week bye, San Fran would have hosted the Bears the first game and either San Fran or Seattle would have ended up playing in Green Bay. And if you don't think that mattered to the Packers well, I would be willing to bet it did.

Just Me wrote: There was still seeding to be determined yet, so I think you are dismissing this game a little too quickly.

I don't believe a regular season game for a team already making the playoffs with seeding implications is anywhere close to a playoff game. See: Vikings, 2009

Raptorman wrote: Had Green Bay won that game, the Bears would have made the playoffs instead of the Vikings. The Packers would have had a first week bye, San Fran would have hosted the Bears the first game and either San Fran or Seattle would have ended up playing in Green Bay. And if you don't think that mattered to the Packers well, I would be willing to bet it did.

Which still has nothing to do with the extra intensity of a playoff game vs regular season. Regular season != playoffs. I don't care what "seeding implications" are on the line. It's not the same.

Crax wrote: I don't believe a regular season game for a team already making the playoffs with seeding implications is anywhere close to a playoff game. See: Vikings, 2009 Which still has nothing to do with the extra intensity of a playoff game vs regular season. Regular season != playoffs. I don't care what "seeding implications" are on the line. It's not the same.

Of course it's not the same. That is why it's as close as you can get without actually playing a playoff game (which Ponder has not yet done). So - how can a conclusion be drawn that Ponder wouldn't perform well. I've stated my case for a high intensity game (season is on the line and playoff seeding is at stake for the Packers) in which Ponder has played well. That is as stressful as it gets outside of an actual playoff game which there is no data to compare. I'll take that data versus someone's "gut feeling" that Ponder wouldn't perform well. YMMV...

Man, that overthrow to Jenkins that led to a Madieu Williams TD was a horrible play. I have to admit, some part of my consciousness blocked that out for good reason.

I came into this season really wanting to believe Ponder would turn the corner, and part of me still has hope that he will, but after watching him up to this point, and also watching how Frazier is handling his playing time, I am growing more doubtful by the day that there is any corner to turn for him. I really expected to see him come out throwing down the field more in preseason given his improved receivers. He has guys who can get open deep now and guys who can go up and get the ball. I was hoping to see better footwork and more accuracy. I was hoping to see better patience in the pocket and recognition on the field. It's just not there. I wish I could have seen him play another series or two in the first preseason game (Frazier's fault, not Ponder's), because he would have had more chances to demonstrate those improvements, but based on the other two games he did play more snaps, it's been mostly short attempts, tons of 3-and-outs, a relatively high percentage of inaccurate throws, happy feet, etc. When I watch a guy like Kaepernick fit the ball into a tight window or hit a guy running a slant in stride or escape pressure to find a guy and make a nice throw, it just reminds me what the Vikings don't have in Ponder and are unlikely to ever get at this point.

I know there is a relatively large contingent of fans on this board who are willing to be patient and even defend Ponder, but as much as I want to keep hope, I'm losing it for him bigtime. I think Spielman is going to have to take a haircut on this one. I'm pretty sure Ponder will get his year to fully prove himself, and after that I have no idea what the Vikes will do, but Spielman had better be working on something. He's running out of time to get the most out of AD, and this run-oriented attack that Frazier and Musgrave can get away with because of AD's super-human production is going to look a lot less impressive if they can't find a guy who can throw it down the field more effectively.

And the hilarious part about the whole situation is, is even with Petersons ability to make the defense bite on play-action, Ponder will still be unable to get the ball to his WRs. His accuracy is terrible. Im a bit tired of seeing him overthrow a guy with those "floaters." I really thought Ponder was going to improve this off-season, but I see no difference. A little hope is telling me that he is just saving all of his talent for the regular season...lol

VikingLord wrote:Man, that overthrow to Jenkins that led to a Madieu Williams TD was a horrible play. I have to admit, some part of my consciousness blocked that out for good reason.

It was an awful throw and an ugly play.

I came into this season really wanting to believe Ponder would turn the corner, and part of me still has hope that he will, but after watching him up to this point, and also watching how Frazier is handling his playing time, I am growing more doubtful by the day that there is any corner to turn for him.

Think about what you're saying. "You came into this season..."? This season hasn't started! Don't make the mistake of overreacting to preseason football.

I was hoping to see better footwork and more accuracy. I was hoping to see better patience in the pocket and recognition on the field. It's just not there. I wish I could have seen him play another series or two in the first preseason game (Frazier's fault, not Ponder's), because he would have had more chances to demonstrate those improvements, but based on the other two games he did play more snaps, it's been mostly short attempts, tons of 3-and-outs, a relatively high percentage of inaccurate throws, happy feet, etc. When I watch a guy like Kaepernick fit the ball into a tight window or hit a guy running a slant in stride or escape pressure to find a guy and make a nice throw, it just reminds me what the Vikings don't have in Ponder and are unlikely to ever get at this point.

There were good plays alongside the bad and regarding Kaepernick: remember, he was completely ineffective to start that game. He went 1 for 7 before going 6 for 6 to finish the 49ers third possession.

I know there is a relatively large contingent of fans on this board who are willing to be patient and even defend Ponder, but as much as I want to keep hope, I'm losing it for him bigtime. I think Spielman is going to have to take a haircut on this one. I'm pretty sure Ponder will get his year to fully prove himself, and after that I have no idea what the Vikes will do, but Spielman had better be working on something. He's running out of time to get the most out of AD, and this run-oriented attack that Frazier and Musgrave can get away with because of AD's super-human production is going to look a lot less impressive if they can't find a guy who can throw it down the field more effectively.

I definitely hope Spielman is "working on something" because whatever the Plan B is if Ponder doesn't pan out, it's not apparent... or maybe it is and it's just drafting a QB in the first round or two next year. Hopefully that won't be necessary. We'll probably know 16 games from now.

Meanwhile, if you had hope for Ponder a month ago there's no sense in losing it now, based on less than a full games' worth of preseason football, the majority of which came against one of the most talented defensive teams in the NFL.

808vikingsfan wrote:Yes it was very decent. But don't try and tell me he carried the team. Rewatch the game. It's very clear who "stepped it up" and carried the Vikings. Ponder was a good bus driver that day. He played a smart game along with everyone else on that team. WR's stepped up big too, especially Jenkins turning an INT into a TD. As far as Peterson not breaking 100yds in the playoffs (he had 99 by the way), I think it had more to do who started, rather than who didn't start.

Who made the critical 3rd down conversion to keep the final drive alive and eventually the game winning field goal? (I know who rushed for 200+ yards and never implied or stated Ponder carried the team for the whole game.)

(Look - I'm not bashing Adrian. He clearly does the "heavy lifting" in the offense. But to imply that Ponder has a only marginal effect on the offensive success of the team is inaccurate. Ponder came through when he needed to - that was the point. He didn't "tank" on third down or throw the INT. He came through. I don't think he is a particularly great quarterback. I'm reasonably certain he's not as bad as some believe him to be.

Really? We are still talking about this game?

PurpleMustReign wrote:Really? We are still talking about this game?

?

Just Me wrote: ?

I shoudln't say "Talking" I should say "####" or "griping" or "killing ourselves over".

Mothman wrote:I definitely hope Spielman is "working on something" because whatever the Plan B is if Ponder doesn't pan out, it's not apparent... or maybe it is and it's just drafting a QB in the first round or two next year. Hopefully that won't be necessary. We'll probably know 16 games from now.

I think it's Cassel with an emphasis on the QB position next draft. Cassel hasn't performed very well but coming into the season he was one of the more prominent free agents in terms of someone who was going to be placed in a backup role. My preference would have been to draft a guy in the latter half of the draft this year, someone to at least push MBT for a spot. I probably sound like a broken record by now but the Redskins mortgaged the farm on RG3 and still drafted Cousins. I don't know why Spielman is so averse to taking QBs in the draft's later rounds.

S197 wrote: think it's Cassel with an emphasis on the QB position next draft. Cassel hasn't performed very well but coming into the season he was one of the more prominent free agents in terms of someone who was going to be placed in a backup role. My preference would have been to draft a guy in the latter half of the draft this year, someone to at least push MBT for a spot. I probably sound like a broken record by now but the Redskins mortgaged the farm on RG3 and still drafted Cousins. I don't know why Spielman is so averse to taking QBs in the draft's later rounds.

Maybe he just keeps seeing players at other positions that he likes better?