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Obviously not a lot of good to say coming out of that game but I was glad to see the 1st string defense hold their own for the first few series especially with their backs against the wall after the fumble. They did soften after a while but the offense continually went three and out which is something we've seen before and isn't helpful to a defense. An offense as good as San Francisco's is only going to be contained, not stopped. I thought Robison looked good off the edge and agree with some of the other posters that Evans is making a strong case to start over Guion.

As for Ponder the two passes to Burton have been discussed and I agree with the majority that one was his fault and the other wasn't. However, he also overthrew Jennings on the first play who was open, had a few other passes that were high, and also had a very lame duck throw into the dirt which turned out to be a blessing because it probably would have been a pick otherwise. I mentioned in the last game thread that Ponder needs to step up in the pocket so it was good that the coaching staff worked with him on that this week but it's clear that he isn't comfortable there and looks like he wants to bolt at any second. I feel he should be further along in his pocket presence at this point in his career.

The coaching staff also doesn't get a pass here. This is the third game in a row where the Vikings have come out with a lack of execution, discipline, and focus. That, in part, is a reflection on the coaching staff. They need to really chew these guys out after the performances they've put up. I don't even know why the starters aren't playing next week, I haven't seen anything that shows they deserve the week off. I'd make them play at least a series or two. Then there's the play calling. Third and an index finger and you run a play where you're pulling a guard? That play lacked execution by the line but it was a foolish call to begin with, against one of the fastest defenses in the league. QB sneak, FB dive, something short and sweet. Maybe they were trying to try something new in the preseason, I hope that was the case.

I'm also rather tired of the bunch formations we continue to run. Until Carlson can prove he can do anything I don't understand the personnel package. Yes, things will be different when Felton and AD are on the field but I still think the formations need to be spread out more often. I liked the 4 receiver set on the goalline where Webb caught the TD. It was also nice to see Patterson getting some reps with the 1st team. Conversely, it was puzzling to see Rhodes behind Jefferson on the depth chart.

All in all, yet another game that left more questions than answers.

The main things I'm taking away from the preseason and why I'm not worried.

1. The offense really is built around Adrian. From practice, to preseason, to whatever, it's pretty clear the way they run plays and the things they attempt to do is based around having a special player back there. The bunched formations simply are not very good to pass out of and depend on a player like Adrian to take advantage of pulling the defense in.

Why I'm not worried is because we do have Peterson back there. Even though we weren't going to risk him in the preseason, it's not like we have any real reason to completely change the offense to perform better without him for some preseason games and the coaches likely still wanted everyone else to play how they plan on playing in the regular season. Should something happen to Peterson I'm confident in saying the 2-3 TE bunch packages would quickly be replaced by some of the 3-4 wide receiver stuff we saw a tiny bit of.

2. The Offensive line will be what keeps this team from a superbowl, baring health issues to key players. They simply can't pass block all that well and it's very concerning that Kalil is having such a hard time.

Why I'm not worried is because I think he'll get his butt in gear, maybe he had a poor off season and took his talent for granted. With Peterson we of course will pound the ball and the attention he requires takes a bit of the focus off the o-lines weakness. It's the same unit from last year so it's not like this is a new problem. They managed it pretty well last year to cover it up.

3. If their was an offensive line of the defense it'd be the line backers. Greenway is fine, he'll be his 100+ tackle self and make a few plays here and there but Henderson has been pretty terrible. Vernon Davis had two nice grabs right down the middle and I suspect any team with a decent pass catching end will do work in that area.

Why I'm not worried is overall the starting defense has looked pretty good. DL looks to still be a strength and Shariff Floyd is the real deal I think. Harrison Smith has continued where he left off and Sanford looks faster or maybe he's just playing smarter and in better position cause he's looked good. Rhodes will need a little time but he's looked really good at times too with his press and coverage, same thing with Josh Robinson. Overall it's the same or better than last year as Brinkley wasn't a stud either and an aging Winfield wasn't playing a majority of snaps anyway.

4. Christian Ponder sure hasn't wowed us this preseason but again he's trying to lead a run first offense without our run first option. He went 17-24 with a 74% completion and 6.8 yards per completion with 2 TD's and essentially no turnovers that were his fault. That is pretty much on par with what he's needed to do for the team to win in the past and shows him executing the offense very well.

Why I'm not worried is that's what the coaches ask him to do. A 74% completion rate is very very good and even if it's only 7 or so yards per completion as long as Adrian picks up 3+ on 1st and 2nd that's moving the chains and allowing Adrian more carries. I think we'll see more deep balls connected once we hit the regular season and Adrian is pulling people up and Ponder + the receivers catch the defender's looking in the back field a little too much.

Looking like another good shot at 10-6 with some upside if we can stay healthy.

vikes157 wrote:Not to make excuses for the Vikings playing the way they did but to look at what happened logically, here's five things that still give me hope about the season:
1. We're pretty much still one preseason game behind everyone else- starters played 2 snaps against texans.
2. We played San Francisco 49ers- They're a tough team. Tough D
3. We've been playing on the road- We've never been seen as a road team, need to get better at this but this shouldnt surprise anyone
4. We just played on prime time television- again, we havent always done great on prime time (See Bucs game last year)
5. And last but obviously not F***ing least NO ADRIAN - Changes defenses completely, plain and simple these are not looks that Christian is used to seeing


Reasons for optimism
1. Christian is looking better as far as staying in the pocket and finding throws
2. Our defense should be top 10. We just need more continuity as far as people knowing how to work together within the defense.
3. Our WR's are looking MUCH better from last year.
4. We have MVPETERSON!

I think once guys like Felton, JWright, Peterson, Floyd, Ballard, and hopefully Kwill, get back into the roto we should be heading in the right direction.

PS Looks like Desmond Bishop lead the team in tackles at 9 vs. the 49ers. Good sign for him hopefully he will be able to get up to speed on everything at least by the bye week.

PPS Speaking of bye week, I could see that being a very key week for us as far as young guys taking over as starters, I understand it is still early in the year but Rhodes, Floyd, Patterson, and also Bishop, should be prepared to take over starting jobs at that point.

PPPS SKOL!!!!

Nice post. I especially agree with Ponder staying in the pocket at least a little more. From what I saw, him staying in the pocket led to some of his better passing plays. He wouldn't have done that in the past. Hopefully he keeps progressing there.

mondry wrote:
4. Christian Ponder sure hasn't wowed us this preseason but again he's trying to lead a run first offense without our run first option. He went 17-24 with a 74% completion and 6.8 yards per completion with 2 TD's and essentially no turnovers that were his fault.

How was the fumble not his fault? Even if the protection is bad, either throw the ball or tuck the ball. With the current rules, it's not that hard to just flip one out there and get your arm moving forward. Missed blocks or not, you have to protect the ball better. You could see that fumble coming.

Rodgers and Cutler both have awful OL but they have the ability to step up with confidence. That's what I don't see with Ponder. I feel like he holds the ball for 5 seconds every time.

S197 and Mondry, when you guys refer to bunch formations, are you talking about tight formations? I just want to make sure I'm following you because a bunch formation is a specific type of formation that involves 3 receivers all lining up on the same side and I don't get the impression that's what you're talking about.

By the way, I thought you both made some good points in those posts. Thanks for taking the time to write them.

Regarding the opening deep pass to Jennings: I'd love to know what happened on that play. It looked to me like Ponder was throwing to a spot and the two of them weren't on the same page. It would be interesting to learn just what went wrong.

Mothman wrote:S197 and Mondry, when you guys refer to bunch formations, are you talking about tight formations? I just want to make sure I'm following you because a bunch formation is a specific type of formation that involves 3 receivers all lining up on the same side and I don't get the impression that's what you're talking about.

By the way, I thought you both made some good points in those posts. Thanks for taking the time to write them.

Regarding the opening deep pass to Jennings: I'd love to know what happened on that play. It looked to me like Ponder was throwing to a spot and the two of them weren't on the same page. It would be interesting to learn just what went wrong.

For me I'm referring to tight formations. Specifically the two TE sets that Musgrave utilizes on a regular basis. You're correct in that a bunch formation was an erroneous use of the word on my part. I'm not advocating they go away, I just would like to see a little more diversity.

This is more or less the formations I'm referring to:

Mothman wrote:S197 and Mondry, when you guys refer to bunch formations, are you talking about tight formations? I just want to make sure I'm following you because a bunch formation is a specific type of formation that involves 3 receivers all lining up on the same side and I don't get the impression that's what you're talking about.

By the way, I thought you both made some good points in those posts. Thanks for taking the time to write them.

Regarding the opening deep pass to Jennings: I'd love to know what happened on that play. It looked to me like Ponder was throwing to a spot and the two of them weren't on the same page. It would be interesting to learn just what went wrong.

Man, when I saw the replay on that it seemed to me, in all honesty, that Ponder simply made a terrible throw. Jennings had a guy covering him deep and toward the middle of the field, but he had A LOT of room towards the sideline to work with. Ponder overthrew him and didn't place the ball strategically.

Crax wrote:How was the fumble not his fault? Even if the protection is bad, either throw the ball or tuck the ball. With the current rules, it's not that hard to just flip one out there and get your arm moving forward. Missed blocks or not, you have to protect the ball better. You could see that fumble coming.

You have to have someone to flip it too. Gerhart was in blocking. Nobody else appeared to be in flipping range and we couldn't see what was happening downfield.

I understand what you're saying about protecting the ball but we can't have it both ways. If Ponder is going to step up in the pocket and make throws, he can't keep the ball tucked away. He has to be able to trust his lineman to maintain a pocket long enough for him to actually make a throw. On that play, he stepped up and Loadholt released his man, allowing him to swat the ball away from Ponder from the backside. Ponder's biggest mistake on that play was trusting his right tackle to sustain his block for 2 or 3 seconds.

Mothman wrote: I understand what you're saying about protecting the ball but we can't have it both ways. If Ponder is going to step up in the pocket and make throws, he can't keep the ball tucked away. He has to be able to trust his lineman to maintain a pocket long enough for him to actually make a throw. On that play, he stepped up and Loadholt released his man, allowing him to swat the ball away from Ponder from the backside. Ponder's biggest mistake on that play was trusting his right tackle to sustain his block for 2 or 3 seconds.

I don't need it both ways, tuck or throw, don't run around 1 handed and get it stripped. I'll have to rewatch it, but I recall seeing him one handing it as he was shuffling around as the pressure was coming. You can't fumble it with that field position.

Crax wrote: I don't need it both ways, tuck or throw, don't run around 1 handed and get it stripped. I'll have to rewatch it, but I recall seeing him one handing it as he was shuffling around as the pressure was coming. You can't fumble it with that field position.

You're right, he had it in one hand but I think he was stepping into that space to raise his arm and throw, not just recklessly running around. If Loadholt had done even a decent job on that play, the ball wouldn't have been stripped at all. He has to sustain his block longer than that, especially when his QB is stepping up into the gap to his left.

Bah, it doesn't matter who was responsible. It was a bad play and they have to avoid those mistakes.

What I’m not getting are some of the passes that went for Zero yards, like that quick out to Carlson. I get that he was probably not the first read, but what is the point of that kind of play? Carlson isn’t going to suddenly make a guy miss to gain YAC, so why even make that throw? I get not wanting a sack, but on some of those plays, CP was on the move. Why not just throw it away? Just seems silly, why risk a fumble or something like that when you can just air it out? Would make a lot more sense if JC was at least 3 yards down field so they are at least improving down/distance with the completion. We’ve been seeing plays like this for the past 3-5 years and they just make no sense to me.

Was great to see the quick hitting passes to CP. He looks to be capable of doing some of the same stuff PH was doing with those kinds of plays. His size and athleticism is impressive.

S197 wrote:For me I'm referring to tight formations. Specifically the two TE sets that Musgrave utilizes on a regular basis. You're correct in that a bunch formation was an erroneous use of the word on my part. I'm not advocating they go away, I just would like to see a little more diversity.

This is more or less the formations I'm referring to:

Thanks for the clarification.

Those tight formations are a pretty key part of their running game and they use them to create mismatches and open things up for AD so I suspect we'll continue to see them frequently.

So basically, some fans think Ponder is fine because he did OK against the 49ers 3rd string D, while Kaepernick started out slow and then did GREAT against our starting D. Colt McCoy Looked better then Ponder folks....I means there is Ponder apologists and then theres just plain burying your head in the sand saying, 'its just preseason, its just preseason'.

When is it time to wean Ponder from AD's tit? Its his 3rd year. He isn't a rookie, although he may look like one. Just because Colinsworth said he had better pocket awareness doesn't make him so much better then last year. But I guess at this point we should be happy with anything BoyBlunder does right. I still think a large part of it is coaching. The combination though could make this year Fraizers second 3 win years, if AD goes down (knock on wood).

Is there any point where sticking up for Ponder no matter what becomes foolish? Is admitting that Spielman made a mistake that tough for some of you?

PurpleKoolaid wrote:So basically, some fans think Ponder is fine because he did OK against the 49ers 3rd string D, while Kaepernick started out slow and then did GREAT against our starting D. Colt McCoy Looked better then Ponder folks....I means there is Ponder apologists and then theres just plain burying your head in the sand saying, 'its just preseason, its just preseason'.

When is it time to wean Ponder from AD's tit? Its his 3rd year. He isn't a rookie, although he may look like one. Just because Colinsworth said he had better pocket awareness doesn't make him so much better then last year. But I guess at this point we should be happy with anything BoyBlunder does right. I still think a large part of it is coaching. The combination though could make this year Fraizers second 3 win years, if AD goes down (knock on wood).

Is there any point where sticking up for Ponder no matter what becomes foolish? Is admitting that Spielman made a mistake that tough for some of you?

Mainly agree. I can see Ponder improving this year -- and I can also see him completely flopping. The 3rd year for a QB looking for starting work is do or die. If Ponder doesn't exceed his performance last year, he's gone. I promise you that. So, I'm willing to be patient until the regular season to judge his future career here in MN.