Cordarrelle Patterson

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dead_poet
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

Post by dead_poet »

Based on my admittedly limited understanding of how NFL teams operate, I just find it hard to believe a WR with kick returner duties who has been relegated to the bottom of the depth chart has been getting the kind of reps and attention he needs in practice to develop into a starter.
Meh. He's second-string not a practice squad guy. Hell, if that's the case how did Diggs ever ascend? He was on the second team, too. Patterson was a "starter" on the second team last preseason, indicating he at least was at the top of that unit. While it's probably true he's not getting quite as many first-team reps that doesn't mean the number is that much less. There are countless examples of guys that work themselves up from second unit to starter.

It's what he does with those practice reps that worries me, not the volume. If he's relegated behind guys like Thielen, it's more likely because he put himself there through his performance. After all, again, Diggs worked himself up to the starting ranks and essentially forced the team to keep him on the field. I doubt Patterson was an exception. If others outperform him, how do you, as a coach, justify putting him higher on the depth chart?
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Mothman
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

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dead_poet wrote: Meh. He's second-string not a practice squad guy. Hell, if that's the case how did Diggs ever ascend? He was on the second team, too. Patterson was a "starter" on the second team last preseason, indicating he at least was at the top of that unit.
Their actions after the preseason suggest he was further down the depth chart than second string. If actual playing time is any indication, Wallace, Diggs, Wright, Johnson and Thielen were all ahead of him on the depth chart. That seemed rather obvious over the course of the season and it doesn't seem like a stretch to suggest it may have impacted Patterson's practice reps. There are only so many plays and snaps to go around. If everybody else was getting more playing time, it seems logical to think they may have also received more practice time.

Do you think Patterson was getting the majority of practice reps with the second unit as Wallace's backup? Diggs and Johnson seemed to top the SE depth chart and it seems unlikely he was practicing much in the slot. I don't think Patterson has been used as a slot receiver at all under this staff.

Where was Thielen playing most of the time when he was on the field?
It's what he does with those practice reps that worries me, not the volume. If he's relegated behind guys like Thielen, it's more likely because he put himself there through his performance.


I'm not sure that's true but I understand your logic.

Sigh... this subject truly aggravates me. Again and again, the argument basically boils down to "trust the coaches". The logic is circular: If he's not playing, there must be a good reason for it, right?

There's undoubtedly a reason. That doesn't mean it's a good reason or that the approach being taken is the best approach.

It sure looks to me like they gave Patterson a brief shot and then wrote him off. If he can find a way to develop enough on his own they seem willing to reconsider but last year seemed like a big, crystal clear signal that they've basically washed their hands of him as a WR. I'm guessing recent rumblings indicating that he might still play a larger role in 2016 are due to some behind-the-scenes discussion after the season. Ben Goessling reported there was "frustration in some corners of the organization with the fact the Vikings haven't found ways to get Patterson the ball". It wouldn't surprise me if some of that frustration came from Rick Spielman, who probably isn't thrilled to see his talented former first round pick wasting away on the end of the bench.
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

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Cliff wrote:Maybe he's making too many mistakes to practice with the first strings? The practice time has been restricted with the resent CBA, wasn't it? You can't take a single player aside every few plays because they aren't doing fundamental things right.


I agree but we haven't seen that level of incompetence from him on the field. We don't hear that he constantly gets everything wrong in camp either and again, they were willing to start him for half a season in 2014. if he was so fundamentally unsound that he couldn't handle basic aspects of his position well enough to even practice it without being pulled aside every few plays, why the heck wasn't that addressed much, much sooner in 2014? They had him on the field and were throwing to him in crucial game situations that year.
The team practices are meant to get down the specifics of the playbook in real time as a team. If one player is significantly behind the others I imagine that would put something of a strain on practice.
I could see that being the case but as I've said many times now, there are ways to address that problem. I worry that this whole situation is indicative of a lack of flexibility when it comes to player development.
Though, to be fair, the only kind of practicing with a group I've done consistently was playing with my high school band. Even if a person is playing 5th or 6th seat, a trumpet player making a bunch of fundamental mistakes makes it difficult to practice. It's distracting. The conductor has to stop and have the section try by themselves so you end up just kind of sitting there. Something tells me those are apples to spaceships but it makes sense in my brain :lol:
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

Post by Mothman »

losperros wrote:You're probably right. Others have speculated about the same thing. I just keep thinking Patterson could have helped an offensive passing game that didn't exactly light it up last season.
Sorry, I forgot to reply to this earlier.

I obviously think he could have helped, Craig. The offense only managed to score TDs all year, passing and running! I've seen all the excuses and potential justifications for not using Patterson and none of them satisfy me. The Vikings struggled to put the ball in the end zone last year and they left a healthy, extremely talented player who was drafted to help them do that sitting on the bench most of the season. Reports say his attitude is fine and his work ethic is fine so frankly, it's inexcusable.

It's like they forgot he could do this for them:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... highlights

:confused:
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

Post by losperros »

Mothman wrote:I obviously think he could have helped, Craig. The offense only managed to score TDs all year, passing and running! I've seen all the excuses and potential justifications for not using Patterson and none of them satisfy me. The Vikings struggled to put the ball in the end zone last year and they left a healthy, extremely talented player who was drafted to help them do that sitting on the bench most of the season. Reports say his attitude is fine and his work ethic is fine so frankly, it's inexcusable.

It's like they forgot he could do this for them:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... highlights

:confused:
I agree. Patterson can be a force and it's been documented on film.

I'm hoping Patterson and a healthy Charles Johnson get playing time and bring some much needed horsepower to the offense.
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

Post by S197 »

Mothman wrote: Their actions after the preseason suggest he was further down the depth chart than second string. If actual playing time is any indication, Wallace, Diggs, Wright, Johnson and Thielen were all ahead of him on the depth chart.
Eventually but didn't he start the season further up the chart? I know for sure he was ahead of Thielen. They would bring him in a lot in those jumbo sets (I'm presuming because of his blocking ability). Anyone recall which game it was that he got the unsportsmanlike penalty on the sidelines for headbutting the other team? I think he had another foolish penalty in the same game as well. I feel like it was relatively early in the season and the start of his slow slide down the chart.
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

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S197 wrote:Eventually but didn't he start the season further up the chart? I know for sure he was ahead of Thielen. They would bring him in a lot in those jumbo sets (I'm presuming because of his blocking ability). Anyone recall which game it was that he got the unsportsmanlike penalty on the sidelines for headbutting the other team? I think he had another foolish penalty in the same game as well. I feel like it was relatively early in the season and the start of his slow slide down the chart.


Yes, that occurred on a special teams play in the home game against Green Bay in late November. I think he had been completely phased out of the offense by that point.

He might have started the season further up the depth chart. Even if he did, it seems pretty clear he didn't stay there.
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

Post by John_Viveiros »

I'm not trying to be argumentative here. Just read it and disagree if you want...

But I thought he was probably sitting on the bench because he ran bad routes, and he wasn't where Teddy or the coaches expected him to be, leading to interceptions. Probably more so in practice, since he really didn't see the field much.

The Vikings staff took a team that had an offense that frankly sucked, and beat the four time division champs at their stadium to go 11-5. They've earned my trust in these situations, as much as I like CP's playmaking skills.
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

Post by Mothman »

John_Viveiros wrote:I'm not trying to be argumentative here. Just read it and disagree if you want...

But I thought he was probably sitting on the bench because he ran bad routes, and he wasn't where Teddy or the coaches expected him to be, leading to interceptions. Probably more so in practice, since he really didn't see the field much.

The Vikings staff took a team that had an offense that frankly sucked, and beat the four time division champs at their stadium to go 11-5. They've earned my trust in these situations, as much as I like CP's playmaking skills.

You're not being argumentative, John and I think the perspective you're presenting above is the more widely held view.

The poor offense is precisely why the coaching staff hasn't earned my trust, not completely, and not when it comes to offensive strategy or talent.
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

Post by dead_poet »

Mothman wrote:Their actions after the preseason suggest he was further down the depth chart than second string.
You mean after the preseason where Patterson ran the wrong route and directly led to a Hill interception? I wonder why that didn't enamor him to the coaching staff. :twisted:
If actual playing time is any indication, Wallace, Diggs, Wright, Johnson and Thielen were all ahead of him on the depth chart. That seemed rather obvious over the course of the season and it doesn't seem like a stretch to suggest it may have impacted Patterson's practice reps. There are only so many plays and snaps to go around. If everybody else was getting more playing time, it seems logical to think they may have also received more practice time.

Do you think Patterson was getting the majority of practice reps with the second unit as Wallace's backup? Diggs and Johnson seemed to top the SE depth chart and it seems unlikely he was practicing much in the slot. I don't think Patterson has been used as a slot receiver at all under this staff.
We really have no way of knowing but CJ was a starter before being injured for a good portion of the season. That leads me to believe that, yes, Patterson likely was receiving a majority of the second team reps for much of the season for one reason or another, and that's under the assumption he was only getting them as a result of that. For all we know he was getting the bulk of the second team reps regardless.
Where was Thielen playing most of the time when he was on the field?
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the slot. ESPN has/had Thielen listed behind Wright anyway.

In August, the Vikings listed their preseason depth chart as:

WR1

Mike Wallace
Cordarrelle Patterson
Jarius Wright
Isaac Fruechte
Jordan Leslie
Gavin Lutman

WR2

Charles Johnson
Adam Thielen
Stefon Diggs
Donte Foster
DaVaris Daniels
Ryan Whalen

After cuts the depth chart read:

WR1 Mike Wallace Cordarrelle Patterson Jarius Wright
WR2 Charles Johnson Adam Thielen Stefon Diggs

Obviously that changed over the course of the season.
I'm not sure that's true but I understand your logic.
I find that more likely than there's some kind of conspiracy against him or a coaching staff with that much experience is choosing to keep a superior player on the bench without good reason.
If he's not playing, there must be a good reason for it, right?
I honestly don't know why that's so hard to believe.
]There's undoubtedly a reason. That doesn't mean it's a good reason or that the approach being taken is the best approach.
No, but it also doesn't mean that it's the wrong approach either. Not every player with immense physical gifts succeeds in the NFL. I look at Troy Williamson as an example. The coaching staff continued to put Williamson on the field, even through his struggles. Did that translate into a more productive offense? When Devin Hester or Josh Cribbs is/was on offense, do they succeed as receivers? Or has it been determined that Hester is/has been most effective as the primary return specialist (and other receivers on the field instead)? Patterson would hardly be the first.
It sure looks to me like they gave Patterson a brief shot and then wrote him off.
That's fine if that's your perspective but I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. What we perceive as a "brief shot" (because we're not privy to every practice and film study) may be standard for the NFL. Hell, it's been proven that first-rounders typically get the most leeway in terms of playing time if only because of their draft status. Not to mention that even as recent as last year Zimmer made the comment that Patterson still needs to decide if he wants to (paraphrasing) be a professional or "The Flash."

If he's continually making mistakes in practice (or is not precise enough to create adequate separation), if there are receivers that are better pre-catch and getting open consistently and where they're supposed to be more often, I'd probably think less of the coaching staff for putting Patterson in the lineup over them. That would send a poor message and you wouldn't be maximizing your offense, no matter how high Patterson's upside might be with the ball. However if they're keeping Patterson on the bench when he has proven that he's a superior receiver to, say, CJ then I would agree with you. I just find that highly unlikely.

The fact is he has had the benefit of three years of coaching/practice and even his personal receiving coach said that an incoming rookie still has better route-running skills than Patterson at this point (and one that isn't in the Amari Cooper level of route-running ability). Maybe I'm reading into that too much but I see that as an indication of just where Patterson's pre-catch skills are at this point. He may have improved, but that comment, to me, says that he's still below where he needs to be to be a starter in the NFL. The stats on throws to Patterson past the LOS are not favorable to his case.

I really wish this isn't the case because Patterson is clearly a special talent with the ball. I suppose we may find out next year if he's under a different coaching staff. If he suddenly becomes a good/great receiver then I'll join in the chorus of critics that will likely be bashing the Vikings/Zimmer/Norv for their decisions. When I see a guy like Diggs, who was listed at the back of the depth chart coming out of camp, able to work his way into the starting lineup and play well enough to stay there it makes me believe the coaching staff puts who they believe to be the best talent on the field that gives them the best chance to win each week. Frankly, I'm not sure special exceptions should be made for Patterson if he cannot do the same thing as Diggs.

Let's hope Patterson gets some chances in the preseason this year and can prove to us and the coaching staff that he's improved enough to warrant a starting spot, or at least 30+ snaps/game.
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

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dead_poet wrote:You mean after the preseason where Patterson ran the wrong route and directly led to a Hill interception? I wonder why that didn't enamor him to the coaching staff. :twisted:
You mean after the preseason where Patterson caught a 21 yard TD pass from Hill by juking a DB and then outrunning him to the end zone? Yeah, I think that's the one. :twisted:
dead_poet wrote: I honestly don't know why that's so hard to believe.
Maybe partly because Patterson has already done the things he supposedly cannot do. And then there is how bad the offensive passing game was last year, which some of us feel Patterson's skills could have helped improve. Personally, I question any blind trust that hinges on a coaching staff being entirely infallible, not to mention I'm not crazy about Norv Turner's system for this particular group of offensive skill players. Just my take.
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

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dead_poet wrote:Let's hope Patterson gets some chances in the preseason this year and can prove to us and the coaching staff that he's improved enough to warrant a starting spot, or at least 30+ snaps/game.
Let's hope so but even if he doesn't earn a starting spot, I hope they use him.

I had posted a much longer response. I don't know if you saw it or not. However, after thinking about it and reading Craig's simple, succinct reply below, I decided to just go back to this, which is really the bottom line for me:

There is just no excuse for only giving Patterson 4 touches last year.

After all of the justifications, ifs maybes, etc. we're still left with a player we can all agree has a great deal of talent essentially not being used as an offensive weapon. I don't think the 4 touches Patterson received qualify as a genuine effort from the coaching staff to make use of his abilities. That's why I'm so adamant about this. They didn't really try.
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Re: Cordarrelle Patterson

Post by Mothman »

losperros wrote: You mean after the preseason where Patterson caught a 21 yard TD pass from Hill by juking a DB and then outrunning him to the end zone? Yeah, I think that's the one. :twisted:
Maybe partly because Patterson has already done the things he supposedly cannot do.


Exactly!
And then there is how bad the offensive passing game was last year, which some of us feel Patterson's skills could have helped improve. Personally, I question any blind trust that hinges on a coaching staff being entirely infallible, not to mention I'm not crazy about Norv Turner's system for this particular group of offensive skill players. Just my take.
As usual, I took the long road to make the point you made so much more succinctly. :lol:
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