Vikings Message Board.Com

HardcoreVikesFan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:26 am I have not posted in quite sometime, but I needed to come out of retirement to vent.

I think I have finally reached my breaking point supporting this team. You have Jim Harbaugh in the building for 9 hours and you decide, "nope, Kevin O'Connell is better." How can anyone with some level of football knowledge truly believe a 36-year old OC who DOESN'T CALL PLAYS is better than Jim Harbaugh? What is the point of hiring a GM to make decisions if a minority owner is going to have more say on the matter than the GM? What the hell kind of message is that? If ownership and the team role-players have more decision-making capacity than the GM, why bother having a GM in the first place?

The Wilfs blew an amazing opportunity to generate fan and NATIONAL buzz in the team. Can you imagine how much revenue this team will lose out on because they chose not to hire Harbaugh? Ticket sales would have been through the roof. The team would have easily had more prime-time games. My interest in the team has decreased over the years. I, for one, would have been all-the-way back in with the Harbaugh hiring. Harbaugh was perfect for this team. They needed a strong leader who was able to mend fences and bring strong developmental traits to help many of these young players reach their potential. Harbaugh is all about winning. I can no longer ever take the Wilfs seriously again when they say, "we are all about winning." No, you are not. If you were, Mark and Zygi, you would have hired Harbaugh.

This O'Connell hiring will blow-up in Minnesota's face and the team will be on the lookout for a new coach again in 3-4 years. I guarantee O'Connell is not ready to be a head coach. I guess the Wilfs found their 'yes-man' candidate at least.

I have been following the Vikings since 1961 and haven't wimped out on them yet. Suck it up and give them a chance, Harbough was an attention seeking freak. I'd rather our coaches expend their energy on the sideline coaching instead of having fits of anger. Don't worry, a lot of people thought Bud Grant's lack of NFL experience would result in failure. That turned out well, I'm excited by the direction they're taking. I'm an old guy at 70 but I want to see some fresh thinking. According to what I have heard O'Connell even though he didn't call the plays was the man behind the Ram's offense. As a grouchy old SOB I have to admit that I'm overr grouchy old SOB coaches.

makila wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:24 am O’Connell quickly became the favorite of the search committee, which was looking to overhaul the working environment at team headquarters, prioritizing leadership, inclusivity and collaboration after the front office, coaching staff and roster fractured under the pressure on Spielman and Zimmer’s watch. O’Connell seemed to fit that style and mesh well with Adofo-Mensah’s measured approach. Leadership also believed O’Connell’s offensive background was more in line with where the game is going.

Great article. Thanks for posting that makila.

I believe the above ended up being the deal-breaker.

Jim Harbaugh has had a lot of success doing things his way. I suspect as he went through the interview process he began to understand that if he became the head coach of the Minnesota Vikings his ability to operate autonomously would be limited, and more than likely he saw echoes of his experience with the 49ers towards the end of his stint there as he interacted with the Wilfs in the interview. I think the last thing someone like Harbaugh would want or need would be another owner that actively interferes with what he wants to do. I think he was likely fine working with KAM, but I suspect he would not have liked working with the Wilfs if they wanted to be more than the guys writing the checks, which I think it remains apparent they intend to be.

KOC is far more likely to buy into that "collaborative" approach. Initially, at least. It sounds good on paper. Get everyone on the same page, make decisions together, work together, etc. Ideally, functional teams are collaborative to a large degree, at least in the sense that everyone gets on the same page and moves in the same direction.

But there are multiple ways to get everyone on the same page and moving in the same direction, and not all of them require kumbayah sessions between the ownership, GM and head coach. There is also a nuance between an authoritarian dictator approach like Zimmer had where it was his way or the highway and a strong leader with a strong vision who can get people on board and moving in the same direction by showing them the advantages of doing so rather than just telling them to do so. I think Jim Harbaugh is more the latter type of strong leader than the former. Of course, it's not always easy to differentiate the two, which is why Harbaugh's track record as a head coach is so important and should have factored heavily when evaluating him. Guys coming from the coordinator ranks on successful teams don't have those track records. Whether it was Brad Childress or Mike Zimmer, it's much harder to tell which type of strong, independent leader they are based on just an interview, no matter how extensive the interview is.

KOC struck the right tone after the Zimmer and Childress experiences I guess.

The problem with the collaborative approach comes when the decisions aren't easy and when the group can't agree. The decisions still have to be made, of course, and will be made in one way or another, but either someone has to eat a result and take some responsibility for something they didn't agree with (e.g. Zimmer with the Cousins signing), or quietly rebel and start doing things they think are important and necessary, even if those contradict the group's decision at some level.

I personally think the Wilfs learned nothing from their previous hiring experiences. They are overly involved, operating on highly idealistic principles that run into serious challenges in practice, and have merely swapped out two more seasoned people with experience for two far less seasoned rookies in those roles. They are more likely to get smiles and agreement as a result, even if the on-field results suffer. Spielman was around for what, 16 years in his GM role? Zimmer was around for 8 in his head coach role. I wonder how long it will be before the wheels start to fall off the new bus?

I hope I am wrong about all of this, but something tells me that as good as the Wilfs have been in terms of funding the team and improving it financially so that it can be competitive, they are woefully inadequate when it comes to the practical business of running the football operation. Collaborative can work, but more than likely it won't work when push comes to shove and the hard decisions have to be made. On the bright side, that will become even more painfully obvious and clear than it was under the Spielman-Zimmer era.

Cliff wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:32 pm My problem with the Ram's coordinators is that Sean McVay literally has a Photographic Memory. In the simplest terms, I think one of the things (maybe the main thing) that makes McVay's coaching style special literally can't be taught.

But all of the coaches hired away from McVay are having success. One of them is opposing him in the Super Bowl. Another is a royal pain in the Vikings’ butts up there in Green Bay. Even Brandon Staley is highly regarded and has the Chargers on the verge of being really good.

It’s believe it’s not McVay’s photographic memory that makes him special. It’s the culture he builds. When most people experience a great work culture, they find it almost impossible to exist in anything else. Building a great culture not only can be taught, it becomes ingrained in you once you experience it.

Not really sure why a lot of posters on this board speak in absolutes, or close to it. Whether it's Cousins, which GM candidate they wanted, which process will or will not work, how Harbaugh was The Man and O'Connell will fail, etc.

Here's what I consider incontrovertible:

Deep down we all KNOW we don't know how these new hires will do. You can post like you know the absolute truth, but we all know that we don't know. We post to deal with it in different ways - the "I told you so" crowd loves it to go one way, the "I'll come back and eat crow" crowd likes it to go another, the "just give them a shot" crowd, the "anything is better than Zim/Rick" crowd, the "I just want some change" crowd, the "cautiously optimistic/glass half full but I-don't know" crowd, the "I don't care as long as they keep/cut Cousins" crowds - we are all dealing with the EXACT SAME feelings of "no matter WHAT I post here, I sure hope these guys pan out and I'll still dance around the house in my skivvies if they do". So I don't and won't beat anybody up about their posts on the hires. We're all dealing.

I've hired a lot of people over the years - hundreds - and I will say it's VERY hard to beat smart people who are willing to learn from every single transaction throughout the day. No matter their past experience. THOSE people are wildly successful for the most part.

Average to above-average QB's are GOLD in this league. A recent article on ESPN projected "QB moves this offseason", and they only listed 12 teams that they feel are "set" at QB, and that includes guys like ZWilson@NYJ.

Any team embarking on a QB quest has a tough road to hoe. Owners and GMs know this. Some will bite the bullet and suffer the process, others will hold on to whatever decent solution they can get at QB.

Typically I'd say not seeing Mond in action at this point is an indictment of his abilities, but I have to say with Zimmer all bets are off as to why Mond did not see action. Maybe he's simply not ready. Maybe Zimmer was teaching him a lesson. In either case, we need to know if he's a career backup at best.

This means Cousins is not an automatic jettison from the roster at this point, no matter how frustrated we are in terms of wins against winning teams.

I realize there is a lot of "these guys are professionals, they should just perform if they are up to it" thinking out there. I'll interject an opinion here - that's complete horse manure. Players respond differently to different coaching staffs, different perspectives, different gameplans, etc. There are hundreds of examples out there. Even just being TREATED differently can bring about major change in a player.

This means there is certainly a chance that Cousins "gets better" with a different staff, different relationships, a different playbook, a different in-game strategist and a different play caller. From the above-mentioned article, the WAS team has the worst QBR over the last 10 or 20 years, can't recall. So it's not like Kirk has been surrounded by tenured professors of the QB position. Of course, he could be stuck right where he is performance-wise for the rest of his career. The only point being we don't know.

So in the end it boils down to the owners and GM and new HC - can they form the right environment - including hard and soft skills - to get this team competitive in the post season? I do not think it boils down to the process used for hiring, nor the go-in position of ownership. Smart employees learn, and one of the things they learn is what they need to do in order to gain the bosses trust - and therefore some autonomy.

Who knows how the new hires will do. Certainly none of us.

psjordan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:26 pm Not really sure why a lot of posters on this board speak in absolutes, or close to it. Whether it's Cousins, which GM candidate they wanted, which process will or will not work, how Harbaugh was The Man and O'Connell will fail, etc.

Here's what I consider incontrovertible:

Deep down we all KNOW we don't know how these new hires will do. You can post like you know the absolute truth, but we all know that we don't know. We post to deal with it in different ways - the "I told you so" crowd loves it to go one way, the "I'll come back and eat crow" crowd likes it to go another, the "just give them a shot" crowd, the "anything is better than Zim/Rick" crowd, the "I just want some change" crowd, the "cautiously optimistic/glass half full but I-don't know" crowd, the "I don't care as long as they keep/cut Cousins" crowds - we are all dealing with the EXACT SAME feelings of "no matter WHAT I post here, I sure hope these guys pan out and I'll still dance around the house in my skivvies if they do". So I don't and won't beat anybody up about their posts on the hires. We're all dealing.

I've hired a lot of people over the years - hundreds - and I will say it's VERY hard to beat smart people who are willing to learn from every single transaction throughout the day. No matter their past experience. THOSE people are wildly successful for the most part.

Average to above-average QB's are GOLD in this league. A recent article on ESPN projected "QB moves this offseason", and they only listed 12 teams that they feel are "set" at QB, and that includes guys like ZWilson@NYJ.

Any team embarking on a QB quest has a tough road to hoe. Owners and GMs know this. Some will bite the bullet and suffer the process, others will hold on to whatever decent solution they can get at QB.

Typically I'd say not seeing Mond in action at this point is an indictment of his abilities, but I have to say with Zimmer all bets are off as to why Mond did not see action. Maybe he's simply not ready. Maybe Zimmer was teaching him a lesson. In either case, we need to know if he's a career backup at best.

This means Cousins is not an automatic jettison from the roster at this point, no matter how frustrated we are in terms of wins against winning teams.

I realize there is a lot of "these guys are professionals, they should just perform if they are up to it" thinking out there. I'll interject an opinion here - that's complete horse manure. Players respond differently to different coaching staffs, different perspectives, different gameplans, etc. There are hundreds of examples out there. Even just being TREATED differently can bring about major change in a player.

This means there is certainly a chance that Cousins "gets better" with a different staff, different relationships, a different playbook, a different in-game strategist and a different play caller. From the above-mentioned article, the WAS team has the worst QBR over the last 10 or 20 years, can't recall. So it's not like Kirk has been surrounded by tenured professors of the QB position. Of course, he could be stuck right where he is performance-wise for the rest of his career. The only point being we don't know.

So in the end it boils down to the owners and GM and new HC - can they form the right environment - including hard and soft skills - to get this team competitive in the post season? I do not think it boils down to the process used for hiring, nor the go-in position of ownership. Smart employees learn, and one of the things they learn is what they need to do in order to gain the bosses trust - and therefore some autonomy.

Who knows how the new hires will do. Certainly none of us.

Well said. I've been banging this drum but not near as concise as you just did.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:22 pm

Cliff wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:32 pm My problem with the Ram's coordinators is that Sean McVay literally has a Photographic Memory. In the simplest terms, I think one of the things (maybe the main thing) that makes McVay's coaching style special literally can't be taught.

But all of the coaches hired away from McVay are having success. One of them is opposing him in the Super Bowl. Another is a royal pain in the Vikings’ butts up there in Green Bay. Even Brandon Staley is highly regarded and has the Chargers on the verge of being really good.

It’s believe it’s not McVay’s photographic memory that makes him special. It’s the culture he builds. When most people experience a great work culture, they find it almost impossible to exist in anything else. Building a great culture not only can be taught, it becomes ingrained in you once you experience it.

Agreed. The McVay coaching tree does have a lot of Bill Walsh feel to it. And yes I know Denny Green only had mild success here. I'm ready for something different. However this era ends up, they have at least made me interested in watching the Vikings again.

psjordan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:26 pm Deep down we all KNOW we don't know how these new hires will do. You can post like you know the absolute truth, but we all know that we don't know.

...

Who knows how the new hires will do. Certainly none of us.

Not sure I agree with this because you're removing any context from the decision.

Harbaugh has a long track record as a successful head coach at the college and pro ranks. He's been there and done that.

KOC and most of the other candidates the Vikings interviewed do not have that track record.

So while it is true nobody knows how they will do, we can objectively say which move is more likely to produce a certain outcome based on the historical context each candidate presented.

Another way to look at it would be if the team was in the market for a new QB. The two options are Tom Brady and a rookie draft pick. The rookie tested well at the Combine, his college team had a lot of success, and he's considered a top pro prospect.

Which do you go with? Which is more likely to continue past trends and thrive as a member of your team?

You go the Brady route, you know what you're getting for the most part. You go the rookie route, you are mostly hoping you know what you're getting. It's true the rookie could turn into the next Brady, maybe even quickly. But Brady doesn't have to turn into anybody. He just has to continue being the player he's already demonstrated he is.

You mentioned the various "crowds". One of the biggest crowds in terms of Vikings fans is the "talk ourselves into believing a questionable move was the right move" crowd. We did it when Childress was hired. We did it when Spielman drafted Christian Ponder. We did it when Mike Tice passed on Aaron Rodgers not once, but twice in the draft. A lot of us are doing it when it comes to keeping Cousins around, or inking Cook to a big contact, or any other number of moves that objectively have no historical context that justify believing they are the right moves and in fact have a great deal of empirical evidence they are in fact the wrong moves.

When I see people jumping behind the move to go with KOC at head coach, I see myself in that same crowd from all the multiple decades I've watched this team do things like this over and over. I'm reminded of each time I talked myself into believing that the "smart money" must know better and the move will work out.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting, along with the rest of you, for that next Superbowl appearance, much less Superbowl win... I hope this time is different. I strongly suspect it won't be. Not certain of that, of course, but the hiring of both KAM and KOC is just a roll of the dice, and the ongoing involvement of the Wilfs in the operations side of the team remains a huge, if not THE huge, concern in my view.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:41 pm Another way to look at it would be if the team was in the market for a new QB. The two options are Tom Brady and a rookie draft pick. The rookie tested well at the Combine, his college team had a lot of success, and he's considered a top pro prospect.

OK well, Brady is one of one so I'm not sure I love that example. But your rookie is an unknown on the NFL playing/practice/work habits field, and KAM and KOC are not. They both have decent NFL experience, and by all accounts that experience has been successful enough for them to be considered for various openings. They are moving up the chain, and that's always an unknown, sure, but it's not blind faith on our part to think they have a shot at panning out well.

Beforehand, who picked LaFleur, Staley, ZTaylor, McVay, Kingsbury and McDermott to succeed? Not many did so with authority and absolute conviction. Most said the same things most folks are saying about O'Connell. But they were unknowns at the HC level. And lots of guys with HC experience were passed over for those guys.

Are there variables that might indicate one performing better than another? We can posit all we want, but if there are, better minds than all of ours have not come up with that list. Otherwise choosing your new NFL coach would be easy.

I will always give new hires a chance, just like I did with Rick and Zim. Time tells if they pan out, and that has nothing to do with our preconceived notions, predictions, pessimism or optimism.

And I don't think the Wilfs are in Jerry Jones territory, so that aspect does not worry me in the least. Win and the Wilfs will be happy silent owners.

I certainly am open to and really enjoy reading all the opinions here, I'm not advocating not posting those views. Just saying we don't know how these hires will pan out. That's not blind optimism, that's just reality.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:41 pm

psjordan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:26 pm Deep down we all KNOW we don't know how these new hires will do. You can post like you know the absolute truth, but we all know that we don't know.

...

Who knows how the new hires will do. Certainly none of us.

Not sure I agree with this because you're removing any context from the decision.

Harbaugh has a long track record as a successful head coach at the college and pro ranks. He's been there and done that.

KOC and most of the other candidates the Vikings interviewed do not have that track record.

So while it is true nobody knows how they will do, we can objectively say which move is more likely to produce a certain outcome based on the historical context each candidate presented.

Another way to look at it would be if the team was in the market for a new QB. The two options are Tom Brady and a rookie draft pick. The rookie tested well at the Combine, his college team had a lot of success, and he's considered a top pro prospect.

Which do you go with? Which is more likely to continue past trends and thrive as a member of your team?

You go the Brady route, you know what you're getting for the most part. You go the rookie route, you are mostly hoping you know what you're getting. It's true the rookie could turn into the next Brady, maybe even quickly. But Brady doesn't have to turn into anybody. He just has to continue being the player he's already demonstrated he is.

You mentioned the various "crowds". One of the biggest crowds in terms of Vikings fans is the "talk ourselves into believing a questionable move was the right move" crowd. We did it when Childress was hired. We did it when Spielman drafted Christian Ponder. We did it when Mike Tice passed on Aaron Rodgers not once, but twice in the draft. A lot of us are doing it when it comes to keeping Cousins around, or inking Cook to a big contact, or any other number of moves that objectively have no historical context that justify believing they are the right moves and in fact have a great deal of empirical evidence they are in fact the wrong moves.

When I see people jumping behind the move to go with KOC at head coach, I see myself in that same crowd from all the multiple decades I've watched this team do things like this over and over. I'm reminded of each time I talked myself into believing that the "smart money" must know better and the move will work out.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting, along with the rest of you, for that next Superbowl appearance, much less Superbowl win... I hope this time is different. I strongly suspect it won't be. Not certain of that, of course, but the hiring of both KAM and KOC is just a roll of the dice, and the ongoing involvement of the Wilfs in the operations side of the team remains a huge, if not THE huge, concern in my view.

Yes but all is not equal from team to team, season to season. It's why coaches have success on some teams, move on, and don't have success. Or how a coach can get fired from one team, before going to another and winning countless Super Bowls like Belichick did.

Also the same reason you can have one coach on the same team for 5 seasons with success and then failure. So while I see what you're saying, and believe Harbaugh would have won games, it's still not fact just because he won prior. Educated guesses are fine, but that still doesn't mean we KNOW what is going to happen, which is what some of us are saying.

vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:16 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:41 pm

Not sure I agree with this because you're removing any context from the decision.

Harbaugh has a long track record as a successful head coach at the college and pro ranks. He's been there and done that.

KOC and most of the other candidates the Vikings interviewed do not have that track record.

So while it is true nobody knows how they will do, we can objectively say which move is more likely to produce a certain outcome based on the historical context each candidate presented.

Another way to look at it would be if the team was in the market for a new QB. The two options are Tom Brady and a rookie draft pick. The rookie tested well at the Combine, his college team had a lot of success, and he's considered a top pro prospect.

Which do you go with? Which is more likely to continue past trends and thrive as a member of your team?

You go the Brady route, you know what you're getting for the most part. You go the rookie route, you are mostly hoping you know what you're getting. It's true the rookie could turn into the next Brady, maybe even quickly. But Brady doesn't have to turn into anybody. He just has to continue being the player he's already demonstrated he is.

You mentioned the various "crowds". One of the biggest crowds in terms of Vikings fans is the "talk ourselves into believing a questionable move was the right move" crowd. We did it when Childress was hired. We did it when Spielman drafted Christian Ponder. We did it when Mike Tice passed on Aaron Rodgers not once, but twice in the draft. A lot of us are doing it when it comes to keeping Cousins around, or inking Cook to a big contact, or any other number of moves that objectively have no historical context that justify believing they are the right moves and in fact have a great deal of empirical evidence they are in fact the wrong moves.

When I see people jumping behind the move to go with KOC at head coach, I see myself in that same crowd from all the multiple decades I've watched this team do things like this over and over. I'm reminded of each time I talked myself into believing that the "smart money" must know better and the move will work out.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting, along with the rest of you, for that next Superbowl appearance, much less Superbowl win... I hope this time is different. I strongly suspect it won't be. Not certain of that, of course, but the hiring of both KAM and KOC is just a roll of the dice, and the ongoing involvement of the Wilfs in the operations side of the team remains a huge, if not THE huge, concern in my view.

Yes but all is not equal from team to team, season to season. It's why coaches have success on some teams, move on, and don't have success. Or how a coach can get fired from one team, before going to another and winning countless Super Bowls like Belichick did.

Also the same reason you can have one coach on the same team for 5 seasons with success and then failure. So while I see what you're saying, and believe Harbaugh would have won games, it's still not fact just because he won prior. Educated guesses are fine, but that still doesn't mean we KNOW what is going to happen, which is what some of us are saying.

I've been opinionated, loud and proud, but I don't believe I've ever said I know for a fact about any of the coaching speculation. If I got caught up in the heat of the moment and said i did I apologize. Now if i say the Wilfs royally screwed up that's my strongly held opinion. However, I won't say I know the Wilfs royally screwed up.

Just my two and a half Skol cents. I don't have a problem with KOC being out new HC, it's just the way it happened. Harbaugh isn't the type of coach that you fly out and not secure a deal. So I feel like there's way more to the story on what happened and hopefully there's some closure in that situation.

Dmizzle0 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:49 pm Just my two and a half Skol cents. I don't have a problem with KOC being out new HC, it's just the way it happened. Harbaugh isn't the type of coach that you fly out and not secure a deal. So I feel like there's way more to the story on what happened and hopefully there's some closure in that situation.

I was on board for hiring Harbaugh. No doubt it is more likely he will get you more wins in the short term than a first time HC. But his track record also suggests he only stays at a team for so long. I would guess most likely he would want to win now, and we know what that means. The Vikings have some personnel decisions to make, especially salary cap wise. I think it will take a year or two to get that under control. I don’t want to delay that for a couple of 10 win seasons and early playoff exits, and with an older roster. Even Harbaugh admits he wears out his welcome.

I am glad they at least brought him in to see if it would work. My guess is both sides saw that it was not a good fit.

A Harbaugh hire really made more sense in 2018 or 2019 than it does now.

I know it is early but has anyone heard any rumors about offensive and defensive coordinator?

Basics of the McVay Offense:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXP1SrOml74[/youtube]

https://twitter.com/LukeBraunNFL/status ... Fpage%3D17

4mnvikes1982 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:55 pm I know it is early but has anyone heard any rumors about offensive and defensive coordinator?

Not really a rumor but a theory. I heard speculation that part of the reason to interview Patrick Graham may be to gauge his interest in a DC job if he didn’t get the HC job. It would be a lateral move so who knows, but he does know KAM. I have heard Daboll wants him to stay. I am not sure if he wants to come to the Vikings if the Giants could block it as they have a new coach, but I am guessing they could if he is under contract and since it would be a lateral move.