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You’re losing me here man.S197 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:14 pmIn 10 years he's been unable to field even an average OL. He's also handled the QB position very poorly, refusing to use his stockpile of picks on any sort of contingency only drafting when absolutely necessary. Let's not pretend you need a 1st round pick to find a QB, we just gave a 4th round pick back to back mega contracts. And he was a contingency pick for RG3. That's good drafting by Washington and Rick has NEVER done it. Not talking about this year or last. His entire time with the Vikings.Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:53 am
It’s easy to sit there and look at the bad. But you also have to be mindful of the roster he’s built recently.
And I’m sorry but O’Neill is way better than just “okay”. He’s allowed 1 sack in two years. Which I believe was in the SF playoff game this season. I’m not sure how that warrants okay?
And Harvin was a legitimate stud. Harvin was Harvins own problem. He ended up being a head case. If spielman can find guys like diggs and Thielen, he can find a good WR and this is the class you want to do it. Jeudy, Lamb, Ruggs, Higgins, Jefferson, Shenault and Reagor could all be first round picks. And I don’t think there is one I wouldn’t want. Aiyuk could even go in the first as well.
You've done a mock every year right? How many times have you picked a QB? How many times has Rick? It's ridiculous that a guy who prides himself on trading back for 10 picks every year uses absolutely none on the most important position on the field.
O'Neill I believe has good stats because everyone else around him is so bad. It's more or less a race to sack the QB. All he has to do is hold on 1 second longer than our horrible interior and he doesn't get hit for giving up a sack. It's a low bar. He may be above average but I think it remains to be seen.
Diggs I will give to Rick. Thielen if we're honest was more luck than anything. He's still done poorly overall at the position not to mention his FA pickups like Bernard Berrian, Jerome Simpson, Jennings etc.
John David BootyS197 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:45 pmBridgewater and Ponder were both need picks. The Vikings had no other options. Those are not contingency picks. Tell me who he's drafted as a QB to groom. I challenge you to name a single player.Rhodes Closed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:36 pm
He drafted Teddy Bridgewater, dude, the guy who's about to get a massive contract but we let go because of his injury concerns. That's what I'd call a damn good draft pick by Speilman.
Appreciate you making my point.
Like I said, blind spots. Notice how little OL, WR, and QB is on that list? And it's not because we've had continuity there, quite the opposite. As I said originally, I trust Rick to draft certain positions, I specifically mentioned DE, LB and S which is predominantly your list.Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:56 pmYou’re losing me here man.S197 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:14 pm
In 10 years he's been unable to field even an average OL. He's also handled the QB position very poorly, refusing to use his stockpile of picks on any sort of contingency only drafting when absolutely necessary. Let's not pretend you need a 1st round pick to find a QB, we just gave a 4th round pick back to back mega contracts. And he was a contingency pick for RG3. That's good drafting by Washington and Rick has NEVER done it. Not talking about this year or last. His entire time with the Vikings.
You've done a mock every year right? How many times have you picked a QB? How many times has Rick? It's ridiculous that a guy who prides himself on trading back for 10 picks every year uses absolutely none on the most important position on the field.
O'Neill I believe has good stats because everyone else around him is so bad. It's more or less a race to sack the QB. All he has to do is hold on 1 second longer than our horrible interior and he doesn't get hit for giving up a sack. It's a low bar. He may be above average but I think it remains to be seen.
Diggs I will give to Rick. Thielen if we're honest was more luck than anything. He's still done poorly overall at the position not to mention his FA pickups like Bernard Berrian, Jerome Simpson, Jennings etc.
How do you think we got:
Dalvin cook
Brian O’Neill
Stefon diggs
Irv Smith
Alex mattison
Danielle Hunter
Eric kendricks
Anthony Barr
Harrison Smith
Shamar Stephen
Ifeadi odenigbo
And even the guys that are now gone or might be gone: Waynes, Rhodes, possibly Alexander, Harris, weatherly, etc.
Rick spielman drafted every one of them (and signed Harris as a UDFA). You’re simply nitpicking his bad moves, which anyone can do with any GM in the league. Bottom line is, as of late, the Vikings have been known to have one of the more talented rosters in the nfl. That’s because of their GM. I’m not sure how anyone can think differently.
I don’t believe in “lucky” draft picks. It’s not like they know nothing about the guy they are drafting and take a shot in the dark. They were well aware of diggs and obviously liked him. And if I remember correctly I think we traded up in the 5th to get him.
If we had such a bad GM that couldn’t draft, we’d be a bottom feeding team. That’s not the case and in the last 3 years we’ve been considered “contenders” in the NFC.
I’ve literally explained so many times that Thielen was not here because he was from Minnesota. They didn’t even notice him in Minnesota. They saw him at a regional tryout in Chicago and offered him a contract. Along with Carolina. Nobody was holding a gun to spielmans head saying we needed to offer him a contract or even give him a spot on the final 53, year after year no less. It’s not like we sign UDFAs from Minnesota all the time and give them a roster spot. And those guys we’re actually seeing play in college or at their pro days. We were in a different state and noticed him at a regional combine. They stuck out to them and the scout called spielman. They gave him a shot, with everyone thinking he had no shot and they were obviously impressed enough to keep him. Guys act like he was done a favor just because he was from Minnesota. In no way shape or form was that how it went down.S197 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:19 pmLike I said, blind spots. Notice how little OL, WR, and QB is on that list? And it's not because we've had continuity there, quite the opposite. As I said originally, I trust Rick to draft certain positions, I specifically mentioned DE, LB and S which is predominantly your list.Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:56 pm
You’re losing me here man.
How do you think we got:
Dalvin cook
Brian O’Neill
Stefon diggs
Irv Smith
Alex mattison
Danielle Hunter
Eric kendricks
Anthony Barr
Harrison Smith
Shamar Stephen
Ifeadi odenigbo
And even the guys that are now gone or might be gone: Waynes, Rhodes, possibly Alexander, Harris, weatherly, etc.
Rick spielman drafted every one of them (and signed Harris as a UDFA). You’re simply nitpicking his bad moves, which anyone can do with any GM in the league. Bottom line is, as of late, the Vikings have been known to have one of the more talented rosters in the nfl. That’s because of their GM. I’m not sure how anyone can think differently.
I don’t believe in “lucky” draft picks. It’s not like they know nothing about the guy they are drafting and take a shot in the dark. They were well aware of diggs and obviously liked him. And if I remember correctly I think we traded up in the 5th to get him.
If we had such a bad GM that couldn’t draft, we’d be a bottom feeding team. That’s not the case and in the last 3 years we’ve been considered “contenders” in the NFC.
Also I'm not talking about lucky draft picks and I gave him credit for Diggs. You're simply not reading what I'm saying. Thielen was not drafted and was lucky because he's a hometown boy which is why he was here for a tryout.
You mocked Jalen Hurts. When is the last time Rick had a Hurts type pick? John David Booty. That's a terrible GM strategy. I don't think Rick is a bad GM but I don't think he's good enough to get the Vikings to the next level.
It was obviously rhetorical, everyone knows how to use Google. But if you think picking a QB twelve years ago proves your point, well there's not much I can say to convince you otherwise.Rhodes Closed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:21 pmI proved you wrong. You told me to name a *single* QB that the Vikings have drafted that wasn't a need. There you go.
The Vikings have rarely needed to draft at the QB position, point blank.
Why are Vikings are not asking for a first rounder? Browns can give Vikings their 2021 first rounderPondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:49 pm Just saw browns are coming hard after Harris. Looks like Vikings are asking for a 2nd-3rd round pick. Browns have no agreed on anything yet
First off, Freeman started only one game, and Joe Webb started only two, Hill only started one as well. They were backups forced to play thanks to injury. Take them off the list if you want to actually be even close to fair to Rick Spielman, Matt Cassel was also a backup, but a quality backup, so sure, lob him into that list.S197 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:00 pmIt was obviously rhetorical, everyone knows how to use Google. But if you think picking a QB twelve years ago proves your point, well there's not much I can say to convince you otherwise.Rhodes Closed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:21 pm
I proved you wrong. You told me to name a *single* QB that the Vikings have drafted that wasn't a need. There you go.
The Vikings have rarely needed to draft at the QB position, point blank.
And rarely needed a QB? We've constantly needed a QB! Favre, Tavaris Jackson, Webb, Ponder, McNabb, Cassel, Freeman, Teddy, Bradford, Hill, Keenum, Cousins... That's a carousel not a position rarely needed.
I do agree that our QBs have been bit terrible by the injury bug. As for cousins, it’s frustrating to see fans act the way they do regarding him. Some people just don’t get that just because we were in the nfc championship in 2017 doesn’t mean it’s a guarantee we’re going back with a better QB.Rhodes Closed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:26 pmFirst off, Freeman started only one game, and Joe Webb started only two, Hill only started one as well. They were backups forced to play thanks to injury. Take them off the list if you want to actually be even close to fair to Rick Spielman, Matt Cassel was also a backup, but a quality backup, so sure, lob him into that list.S197 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:00 pm
It was obviously rhetorical, everyone knows how to use Google. But if you think picking a QB twelve years ago proves your point, well there's not much I can say to convince you otherwise.
And rarely needed a QB? We've constantly needed a QB! Favre, Tavaris Jackson, Webb, Ponder, McNabb, Cassel, Freeman, Teddy, Bradford, Hill, Keenum, Cousins... That's a carousel not a position rarely needed.
Tavaris Jackson wasn't as good as advertised, but he was also a 2nd Round Draft pick and clearly was to be a work in progress. He wasn't ready to play as a starter in his second year. This is Spielman's fault, yes.
Christian Ponder was a bonafide bust. Fair enough, Spielman missed the ball on that one, but we also didn't have much of a choice. It was either him or the cornucopia of other #### QBs after Cam Newton in that terrible draft, or sticking with Tavaris Jackson. We also wouldn't have needed to draft Ponder if Favre was healthy. Injuries and a bad draft class forced the hand here. The same goes for Donovan McNabb, who we were expecting to play to his potential that he had in the Eagles, but underperformed for ??? reasons. And don't say he was old. He was only 33. If McNabb played to his potential, we likely don't have the conversation regarding Ponder. Again, injuries and a bad draft class forced Ponder to the Vikings. Not Spielman's fault entirely.
Teddy Bridgewater was yes, a need, but he was about to have a breakout year when the Football gods do what they do to the Minnesota Vikings and gave him a grievous injury that none of us thought he would ever recover from. Not Spielman's fault 100%.
The Bradford trade was in hindsight not good. But key word is hindsight. Going 5-0 in 2016 and then having everything fall to crap wasn't ideal. Sort of Spielman's fault, but again, was forced due to injuries. You uh, you noticing a pattern here?
Keenum was a backup that over-performed to his potential and started because, let me repeat myself, injuries forced the hand. Spielman in fact should be getting all the praise in the world here.
Cousins is one of the only QBs we've managed to have any form of consistency with because he has not been injured but once. Spielman should get praise here for bringing in a QB that thus far has shown to be able to avoid the injury bug for an extended amount of time thus far.
So if you want to blame Spielman for any of those QBs you listed, well, the most you get is Jackson, Ponder, McNabb, and Bradford. Three of those were brought in because of injuries though, so yeah. But praise Spielman for getting us Favre, Bridgewater, Keenum, and Cousins. Don't blame him after the fact freak injuries derailed 2 of those 4 great QBs that Spielman got.
So no, we've never *needed* to draft at QB. We've just had to hope that the Football Gods are merciful and not figuratively kick our QBs when they're down. Imagine if Bridgewater was never injured.
... and more often than not, the starter himself has been a journeyman-caliber player (or worse). The position has been badly mismanaged and no amount of rationalization is going to change that.S197 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:02 amTo some degree you make your own luck. Either Spielman is the unluckiest GM in football or he made his own bed. Favre is a perfect example. The guy was what, 41 years old? He’s a hall of famer and had some great success here but how do you not see the writing on the wall? He was banged up and clearly in the twilight of his career. Spielman drafted no one to be Favre’s heir. That’s why we ended up with Ponder, he had no contingency plan. Guys were on planes begging Favre to come back, how can you not see the guy had little left in the tank? The signs were all there and Spielman sat on his hands until he retired and was stuck with reaching for Ponder. Same with McNabb. You want to roll the dice on a past his prime QB fine but have a backup plan!Rhodes Closed wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:26 pm
First off, Freeman started only one game, and Joe Webb started only two, Hill only started one as well. They were backups forced to play thanks to injury. Take them off the list if you want to actually be even close to fair to Rick Spielman, Matt Cassel was also a backup, but a quality backup, so sure, lob him into that list.
Tavaris Jackson wasn't as good as advertised, but he was also a 2nd Round Draft pick and clearly was to be a work in progress. He wasn't ready to play as a starter in his second year. This is Spielman's fault, yes.
Christian Ponder was a bonafide bust. Fair enough, Spielman missed the ball on that one, but we also didn't have much of a choice. It was either him or the cornucopia of other #### QBs after Cam Newton in that terrible draft, or sticking with Tavaris Jackson. We also wouldn't have needed to draft Ponder if Favre was healthy. Injuries and a bad draft class forced the hand here. The same goes for Donovan McNabb, who we were expecting to play to his potential that he had in the Eagles, but underperformed for ??? reasons. And don't say he was old. He was only 33. If McNabb played to his potential, we likely don't have the conversation regarding Ponder. Again, injuries and a bad draft class forced Ponder to the Vikings. Not Spielman's fault entirely.
Teddy Bridgewater was yes, a need, but he was about to have a breakout year when the Football gods do what they do to the Minnesota Vikings and gave him a grievous injury that none of us thought he would ever recover from. Not Spielman's fault 100%.
The Bradford trade was in hindsight not good. But key word is hindsight. Going 5-0 in 2016 and then having everything fall to crap wasn't ideal. Sort of Spielman's fault, but again, was forced due to injuries. You uh, you noticing a pattern here?
Keenum was a backup that over-performed to his potential and started because, let me repeat myself, injuries forced the hand. Spielman in fact should be getting all the praise in the world here.
Cousins is one of the only QBs we've managed to have any form of consistency with because he has not been injured but once. Spielman should get praise here for bringing in a QB that thus far has shown to be able to avoid the injury bug for an extended amount of time thus far.
So if you want to blame Spielman for any of those QBs you listed, well, the most you get is Jackson, Ponder, McNabb, and Bradford. Three of those were brought in because of injuries though, so yeah. But praise Spielman for getting us Favre, Bridgewater, Keenum, and Cousins. Don't blame him after the fact freak injuries derailed 2 of those 4 great QBs that Spielman got.
So no, we've never *needed* to draft at QB. We've just had to hope that the Football Gods are merciful and not figuratively kick our QBs when they're down. Imagine if Bridgewater was never injured.
Compare that to Cousins. No, not $84 million Cousins. But the Cousins taken in the 4th by a team that literally gave away the farm for RG3. THAT is how you contingency plan and Rick has never done it. He runs with his starter, grabs a journeyman limited ceiling guy, and a UDFA third stringer. That’s been his MO for over a decade.
Correct and he doesn't sufficiently learn from his mistakes. He can put together rosters with enough talent to keep a certain percentage of the fan base feeling encouraged and ready to defend him but either those rosters haven't been as talented as they're always made out to be or the Vikings have been doing a lot of underachieving.And the injuries actually reinforce his flaws. You would think a guy who was constantly getting upended by injuries would actually try to plan for them. Spielman isn’t unlucky he’s a guy who fails to plan.
Its a fair criticism. I think a lack of offensive continuity has also played a role. There has been so much turnover on that side of the ball. There is room for improvement simply by sticking with Kubiak's system on offense for a 3 or 4 year span. This will be year two in this offense, and presumably we'll have Cousins under contract, and Kubiak at OC for the next 3 years barring a major shakeup. This, for me, is the one silver lining in a contract move I don't agree with.Mothman wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:56 am
Correct and he doesn't sufficiently learn from his mistakes. He can put together rosters with enough talent to keep a certain percentage of the fan base feeling encouraged and ready to defend him but either those rosters haven't been as talented as they're always made out to be or the Vikings have been doing a lot of underachieving.
A GM"s job isn't to "win" the draft, it's to build a great team.
