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Perhaps but the point is the "whole defense" may not be back.Pondering Her Percy wrote: And we have Waynes as a starter and Alexander to man the slot of it did. Find a decent CB in FA or late in the draft and we're fine.
This is from my view, spot on.S197 wrote:My biggest gripe with Spielman is how he's handled the QB position. This has nothing to do with Bradford, I'm fine with that trade as you had to try and save the season. This goes back to Favre, when we had a 40+ year old at QB and zero contingency resulting in the whole McNabb, Ponder, Webb fiasco.
I think there's four aspects to judge him by:
1) Coaching. Spielman did not have his team in place until Zimmer. I think Zimmer is going to be a great HC and although the OC position is suspect, I think Spielman did a good job with this pick.
2) Defense. I don't think there's much to say here. It's a top 5 defense.
3) Special teams. Patterson is arguably the best returner in the league and Sherels is also very good in his own right. I think kick coverage has substantially improved. Walsh looked like a great pick his rookie season but then something happened. All in all, it looks favorable to me. Walsh could have been let go earlier but that's really my only issue.
4) Offense. On one hand he's drafted a future hall of famer, a top WR in Diggs, and a productive Rudolph. Thielen as a UDFA was also a nice find. I'm still of the opinion that no one has the depth nor contingency to deal with the amount of injuries to the O-line. No one. But that's this year, looking back the line has never been a strength. Given that, and the lack of contingency at QB, he doesn't get a pass.
Looking at it that way, I think he's done well in 3 out of the 4 aspects a GM should be most concerned about. He's also done well with trades (Jared Allen, Linval Joseph, Tom Johnson, draft picks, etc.) and has managed to amass a good amount of picks each draft. So for now, I would keep him. Extraordinary events killed the offense this year but the offense has underperformed in the past. He should be on a shorter leash but I'm not ready to give up.
... or someone who has been working their way up with another team and is ready to tale the next step and become a GM. That seems a more obvious, likely option. It's not our job to know who would replace Rick Spielman but he's hardly irreplaceable. I'd want the team to do a good job of researching and considering potential candidates and they have resources with which to do that. The NFL Career Development Advisory Panel annually assembles a list of worthwhile candidates for coaching and executive positions.Husker Vike wrote:For those of you who want Rick gone, who do have in mind that you would like to see replace him? I don't think that Belichick or Elway are leaving anytime soon so unless you know of some up and coming whiz kid , the best we would be able to land is some one who has fallen out of favor with another team.
A few potential GMs I've read about:Essentially, it comes down to pedigree, temperament and leadership skills. Consultants have, for years, been tapping the wells of talent coming from Green Bay, Seattle and New England. The Patriots' tree alone placed two GMs -- former director of college scouting Jon Robinson, who landed with the Titans, and Quinn, the team's former director of pro scouting -- in the last cycle. The Packers (current Raiders GM Reggie McKenzie and Chiefs GM John Dorsey) also have been frequent receptors of interview requests.
In preliminary interviews, candidates have to survive the filtration process, which strains out the basic characteristics -- for example, eliminating candidates with more administrative and salary-cap experience than scouting, or vice versa -- that fit what the owner decides he or she is looking for.
From there, it's about a series of rapid-fire questions that already have been determined in the owner's mind. Would you fire the head coach? Who would you hire? What do you think about our roster? Who is our best player? Who would you trade?
chicagopurple wrote:I think the urge to have Spielman gone comes from the fact that he has shown a poor ability/willingness to truly focus the teams resources on building the OL. The effort he has made have been flat out wrong.....drafting losers like Clemmings, desperately remaining committed to liabilities like Kalil. Ignoring permanently injured guys like Sully, etc.
I think if he just made a clear commitment to accomplishing this, many detractors might give him he benefit of the doubt. Till then many of us think he will continue to just find bargain basement replacement players for the OL and bad draft gambles like Clemmings while using higher picks on iffy recievers.
As for immediate starters, we have just about every back. I dont even consider Newman a starter anymore with the amount Waynes is playing. Munnerlyn could be the only one and I dont know if that will even happen. With Greenway retiring, we have his replacement in Lamur regardless.Mothman wrote:
Perhaps but the point is the "whole defense" may not be back.
There's nothing wrong with swinging for the fences.Pondering Her Percy wrote: As for immediate starters, we have just about every back. I dont even consider Newman a starter anymore with the amount Waynes is playing. Munnerlyn could be the only one and I dont know if that will even happen. With Greenway retiring, we have his replacement in Lamur regardless.
Bottom line is, this is the first year in how long? Possibly ever, where we could say we dont have a monster whole somewhere on the defense. This is why I am saying that people are overreacting about this offseason IMO. There really isnt much we need to draft or sign in FA defensively. We need OL and RB. We have FIVE picks in the first 4 rounds and thats without a first round pick. FIVE picks within the top ~115. Guys think that just because we dont have a first round pick we are doomed. It's not the end of the world. Especially when you have 1 side of the ball at an elite level with plenty of depth. We dont need the Dallas Cowboys OL and I get the sense that it's what many fans "standard" is. It's not going to happen nor do we need it to happen. We dont need an elite OL to be successful. It needs to get way better dont get me wrong but some seem like they are swinging for the fences here.
I think most people who bring up the Dallas line are probably just doing so to cite an example of how valuable a good OL can be to a team rather than suggesting the Vikes need an elite line to be successful. The Cowboys line (and the way it was built) represents a stark contrast to the Vikings line and the approach Spielman has taken to it over the years.See and I disagree with this as well. His "overall approach" over the years, has gotten us an elite defense. And if you're referring prior to 2012, I'm so far beyond that its not even funny. If you want to pin those draft picks back then on him go ahead but none of us truly know who was calling the shots back then. Could he have drafted a good OL back then that would still be on our team now?? Maybe I havent looked at the draft classes but either way, some are so hellbent on what he did prior to becoming GM in 2012. Some even bring up what he did in Miami which is pretty pathetic if you ask me. What he did there has ZERO to do with what he is doing here. He started a COMPLETE rebuild following the 2011 season. And when I say complete I mean there is only 8 guys on our current roster that were on that team. (Griffen, Robison, AP, Berger, Fusco, Rudolph, Sherels and Greenway). That's a complete roster overhaul if you ask me.Mothman wrote:
It goes well beyond the o-line for me, to his handling of the QB position and his overall approach throughout the years.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:See and I disagree with this as well. His "overall approach" over the years, has gotten us an elite defense.
Sure we do: Spielman and Childress (and to some extent, Frazier in 2011). We can debate about who had the most influence on one move or another but ownership clearly stated that Spielman made the final calls on draft day and the picks alone are just part of the story. He ran the scouting department! He ran the draft. He was part of the "Triangle of Authority". This notion fans continue putting forth in his defense that he had so little responsibility for those teams that every year of his employment prior to 2012 should be dismissed when assessing his performance is utterly absurd. He was one of the highest-paid, most prominent executives in the organization. They weren't paying him to run errands and make coffee. He was arguably the single biggest influence on player personnel.And if you're referring prior to 2012, I'm so far beyond that its not even funny. If you want to pin those draft picks back then on him go ahead but none of us truly know who was calling the shots back then.
Could he have drafted a good OL back then that would still be on our team now?? Maybe I havent looked at the draft classes but either way, some are so hellbent on what he did prior to becoming GM in 2012. Some even bring up what he did in Miami which is pretty pathetic if you ask me. What he did there has ZERO to do with what he is doing here. He started a COMPLETE rebuild following the 2011 season. And when I say complete I mean there is only 8 guys on our current roster that were on that team. (Griffen, Robison, AP, Berger, Fusco, Rudolph, Sherels and Greenway). That's a complete roster overhaul if you ask me.
Yes, we ALL understand that. It's been stated and acknowledged repeatedly and it's pretty obvious in the first place.Again, I've yet to here a solution on what he could of done instead. And I repeat this any time I have this discussion. If he needed to pick OL with this pick or that pick, people have to understand that could have left us WITHOUT a lot of key defenders.
No.We have a GM that focuses on building through the draft, not overspending in free agency, brought a very good coach in to lead this team, stays active in the draft and built an elite defense. There arent many guys out there that do that. There are actually a lot that do the complete opposite. And guys are calling for his head because we were decimated by injuries on the offense?
Dude what are you even talking about?? He bet our season on Sully? We had Berger who filled in all of last year and is the 6th best center in the NFL according to PFF. He bet the season on Clemmings?? He had Andre Smith and Phil Loadholt at RT going into the offseason. Which would make Clemmings 3rd string. Kalil is Kalil. He's inconsistent. But by no means was Matt Kalil the reason we were or werent going to make playoffs or a SB.chicagopurple wrote:you are ignoring the fact that he bet our season on Sully who was pretty much doomed with herniated discs, Kalil who is a proven liability, and Clemmings who is a bust. That was NOT a plan that would get you to a Super Bowl.....
^exactly what I am talking about. "Big deal". I would say it is a big deal Jim. You cant have the best of both worlds here. There isnt a team in the NFL with elite play on both sides of the ball. In order to build an elite defense, you might struggle to have an above average to elite offense. And vice versa. You cant build both at the same time. He isnt some kind of miracle worker.Mothman wrote:
Big deal. An elite defense is an elite defense, not an elite team. You can't just point to the elite defense and ignore the bottom-of-the-barrel offense, which is also a result of his approach.
He went from the ground up in 2012 and we've made the playoffs twice. Probably 3 times if we didnt get hit with the injury bug this year. It's not like when Spielman took over we were the New England Patriots. We were more like the 49ers of right now. People think they know how those drafts went down but truthfully you dont. Unless you were a fly on the wall. It could of been him, it couldve been others. Granted he had a say but who's to say he wanted a guy that Chili didnt so they went in a different direction. Like I said, nobody know. I'm looking at when he was in full control. And that was 2012 and beyond.
Sure we do: Spielman and Childress (and to some extent, Frazier in 2011). We can debate about who had the most influence on one move or another but ownership clearly stated that Spielman made the final calls on draft day and the picks alone are just part of the story. He ran the scouting department! He ran the draft. He was part of the "Triangle of Authority". This notion fans continue putting forth in his defense that he had so little responsibility for those teams that every year of his employment prior to 2012 should be dismissed when assessing his performance is utterly absurd. He was one of the highest-paid, most prominent executives in the organization. They weren't paying him to run errands and make coffee. He was arguably the single biggest influence on player personnel.
However, for those who want to wipe the slate clean prior to 2012, so be it: The Vikings now have 0 playoff wins under Spielman's leadership. He now had nothing to do with drafting Adrian Peterson, Brian Robison, Everson Griffin, Kyle Rudolph or even Christian Ponder (yes, apparently he gets to wipe that pick off his resumé as well).
I choose to ignore them huh? I havent seen one. But since you know me so well, I guess I'm ignoring them. By all means if you go back and find some solutions, I would be glad to assess them right here right now. But like I said, I have yet to see anything.
Yes, we ALL understand that. It's been stated and acknowledged repeatedly and it's pretty obvious in the first place.
People have posted suggestions regarding what he could have done instead. You just choose to ignore or dismiss them and again, this isn't just about the offensive line.
Of course thats the goal but like I said, you cant have the best of both worlds. Yes the offense could be better. But injuries have definitely made it alot worse than it was. And his mismanagement of the QB position had nothing to do with how this year has gone record wise. Like I said, he started from scratch not that long ago. Did you really expect a Super Bowl that fast after a complete rebuild? I sure didnt expect it.
No.
That's not accurate.
People aren't calling for Spielman's head because the offense was decimated by injuries. We're saying he's not the right GM to build a champion. Elite defense or not, the Vikings have experienced almost zero postseason success on his watch. That's one of the main reasons some of us would like to see a change. Yes, we're frustrated by the way the offensive line was allowed to degenerate into a mess but we're also frustrated by mismanagement of the QB position, by too many missed opportunities or questionable draft decisions to go with the good decisions, by his seeming inability to build a complete team, by the way he and the team have essentially squandered the career of a HOF-caliber running back, by decisions like the Carlson signing, repeatedly settling for a putz like Jerome Simpson, failing to address the guard position for years while the obviously inadequate Charlie Johnson was starting. It's all of that and much more. This year's OL problems are just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back for many of us. The offense has been degenerating for 3 years now while Spielman and Zimmer have been building their elite defense. The latter is a tainted feather in the GM"s cap because the price of building it was allowing the offense to sink almost to the very bottom of the league.
An elite defense isn't the goal. A Super Bowl-winning team is the goal, at least I hope so.
Umm.. No, actually Childress had the final say over the 53 man roster, AND the draft picks.Mothman wrote:Sure we do: Spielman and Childress (and to some extent, Frazier in 2011). We can debate about who had the most influence on one move or another but ownership clearly stated that Spielman made the final calls on draft day and the picks alone are just part of the story. He ran the scouting department! He ran the draft. He was part of the "Triangle of Authority". This notion fans continue putting forth in his defense that he had so little responsibility for those teams that every year of his employment prior to 2012 should be dismissed when assessing his performance is utterly absurd. He was one of the highest-paid, most prominent executives in the organization. They weren't paying him to run errands and make coffee. He was arguably the single biggest influence on player personnel.
TOA is unique in the draft roomCoach Brad Childress long ago made it clear that he has final say over the Vikings' 53-man roster. On Monday, he used that authority by making a decision that could come back to bite him in a big way.
I think the point is we don't really know how much say he really had in things. And I'm with you on Spielman.But, when it comes to making the call to New York to lock down a draft pick, it's Spielman's job to assign talent grades to players and let the coach pick which need is more a priority when the pick comes in.
I understand what you're saying. I'm not ok with just making playoffs. But I also realize that we truly have one piece of a SB caliber team. Many teams in the league cannot say that right now. We can. And I have confidence that Spielman and Zim will work their way to making this offense better within the offseason.chicagopurple wrote:Buddy, when you spend 45 yrs supporting this team, driving Chicago to MN to watch them, etc etc...there is no such thing as "over reacting". At this point, every season is "#### or get off the pot". Just making the playoffs is not sufficient. Either you are building a team designed to win it all, or you are just jerking us off. This team hasnt been a model of success that the rest of the league seeks to emulate. It should be. That should be the ONLY goal.