Rick Spielman, what should the Vikes do with him

[Mothman]

And we have Waynes as a starter and Alexander to man the slot of it did. Find a decent CB in FA or late in the draft and we're fine.

Perhaps but the point is the "whole defense" may not be back.

[UKno1VIKING]

My biggest gripe with Spielman is how he's handled the QB position. This has nothing to do with Bradford, I'm fine with that trade as you had to try and save the season. This goes back to Favre, when we had a 40+ year old at QB and zero contingency resulting in the whole McNabb, Ponder, Webb fiasco.

I think there's four aspects to judge him by:

1) Coaching. Spielman did not have his team in place until Zimmer. I think Zimmer is going to be a great HC and although the OC position is suspect, I think Spielman did a good job with this pick.

2) Defense. I don't think there's much to say here. It's a top 5 defense.

3) Special teams. Patterson is arguably the best returner in the league and Sherels is also very good in his own right. I think kick coverage has substantially improved. Walsh looked like a great pick his rookie season but then something happened. All in all, it looks favorable to me. Walsh could have been let go earlier but that's really my only issue.

4) Offense. On one hand he's drafted a future hall of famer, a top WR in Diggs, and a productive Rudolph. Thielen as a UDFA was also a nice find. I'm still of the opinion that no one has the depth nor contingency to deal with the amount of injuries to the O-line. No one. But that's this year, looking back the line has never been a strength. Given that, and the lack of contingency at QB, he doesn't get a pass.

Looking at it that way, I think he's done well in 3 out of the 4 aspects a GM should be most concerned about. He's also done well with trades (Jared Allen, Linval Joseph, Tom Johnson, draft picks, etc.) and has managed to amass a good amount of picks each draft. So for now, I would keep him. Extraordinary events killed the offense this year but the offense has underperformed in the past. He should be on a shorter leash but I'm not ready to give up.

This is from my view, spot on.
the backroom staff have done some great things to get this team where it is today.
Yes all the cynics will say we'll be a team with a losing record this season. That's fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And maybe for this season they're right.
however, as far as the bigger picture is concerned, i don't think anyone can contest that the futures bright, even if their opinion is that it isn't already.

Special Teams - we have some problems here, but these can be sorted. And we have some great talents in this phase. CP, Sherels to name but two. maybe i've got a gripe with the usually inconsistent Locke's kicking, but he's played very well this season. (bar Dallas)
Defence - in my view, is the best young defence in football. contrasted with these young studs, are some great seasoned players, who bring the character to this team. It's a fantastic unit, and one i never tire of watching.
Offence - Here it is, the weakness. But to be honest, you look at the skill positions, we've got a lot to be excited about.
At QB we have in my view two NFL Starters, hopefully dueling it out to lead this team next year.
RB we have a good talent in JET, who needs some help before we really see his potential. I will be very dissapointed if we ship him off before we see what he can really do.
WR, in my view is a very exciting group of youngsters. Possibly an old head could be added to take them under his wing next season? The talent is there, but the fundamentals are found wanting at times (drops, route running etc)

Which leads us to our weakness. And what i feel is the reason we aren't between 12-0 and 10-2 this season. The O-line. We all know how bad they are, but why? And how did it come to this. Yes injuries were a major part, but this problems stems backs from years ago.
Is this down to Slick Rick ignoring the issue? If it is, we may of done so to secure some of the other fine players we've picked up (i'm still on the fence with treadwell, i'd like to see another season with him before i cast my judgement). Sirles looks raw, but could be a decent addition, since he's come in.

In conclusion, i feel that Rick and co, have done a fine job to get the team where it is today. But if he ignores the OL this off season, i will be the first on the sack him crew. That would be unacceptable, the way the line has played this season.

[Mothman]

For those of you who want Rick gone, who do have in mind that you would like to see replace him? I don't think that Belichick or Elway are leaving anytime soon so unless you know of some up and coming whiz kid , the best we would be able to land is some one who has fallen out of favor with another team.

... or someone who has been working their way up with another team and is ready to tale the next step and become a GM. That seems a more obvious, likely option. It's not our job to know who would replace Rick Spielman but he's hardly irreplaceable. I'd want the team to do a good job of researching and considering potential candidates and they have resources with which to do that. The NFL Career Development Advisory Panel annually assembles a list of worthwhile candidates for coaching and executive positions.

Here's a recent article about how some teams find and hire coaches and GMs. It's a pretty interesting read:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... the-inside

Essentially, it comes down to pedigree, temperament and leadership skills. Consultants have, for years, been tapping the wells of talent coming from Green Bay, Seattle and New England. The Patriots' tree alone placed two GMs -- former director of college scouting Jon Robinson, who landed with the Titans, and Quinn, the team's former director of pro scouting -- in the last cycle. The Packers (current Raiders GM Reggie McKenzie and Chiefs GM John Dorsey) also have been frequent receptors of interview requests.

In preliminary interviews, candidates have to survive the filtration process, which strains out the basic characteristics -- for example, eliminating candidates with more administrative and salary-cap experience than scouting, or vice versa -- that fit what the owner decides he or she is looking for.

From there, it's about a series of rapid-fire questions that already have been determined in the owner's mind. Would you fire the head coach? Who would you hire? What do you think about our roster? Who is our best player? Who would you trade?

A few potential GMs I've read about:

Patriots Director of Player Personnel Nick Caserio
Dolphins G.M. Chris Grier
Ravens assistant G.M. Eric DeCosta
Chiefs director of football operations Chris Ballard

There are others too but rest assured, there's a pool of qualified candidates out there.

[chicagopurple]

I think the urge to have Spielman gone comes from the fact that he has shown a poor ability/willingness to truly focus the teams resources on building the OL. The effort he has made have been flat out wrong.....drafting losers like Clemmings, desperately remaining committed to liabilities like Kalil. Ignoring permanently injured guys like Sully, etc.

I think if he just made a clear commitment to accomplishing this, many detractors might give him he benefit of the doubt. Till then many of us think he will continue to just find bargain basement replacement players for the OL and bad draft gambles like Clemmings while using higher picks on iffy recievers.

[Mothman]

I think the urge to have Spielman gone comes from the fact that he has shown a poor ability/willingness to truly focus the teams resources on building the OL. The effort he has made have been flat out wrong.....drafting losers like Clemmings, desperately remaining committed to liabilities like Kalil. Ignoring permanently injured guys like Sully, etc.

I think if he just made a clear commitment to accomplishing this, many detractors might give him he benefit of the doubt. Till then many of us think he will continue to just find bargain basement replacement players for the OL and bad draft gambles like Clemmings while using higher picks on iffy recievers.

It goes well beyond the o-line for me, to his handling of the QB position and his overall approach throughout the years.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Perhaps but the point is the "whole defense" may not be back.

As for immediate starters, we have just about every back. I dont even consider Newman a starter anymore with the amount Waynes is playing. Munnerlyn could be the only one and I dont know if that will even happen. With Greenway retiring, we have his replacement in Lamur regardless.

Bottom line is, this is the first year in how long? Possibly ever, where we could say we dont have a monster whole somewhere on the defense. This is why I am saying that people are overreacting about this offseason IMO. There really isnt much we need to draft or sign in FA defensively. We need OL and RB. We have FIVE picks in the first 4 rounds and thats without a first round pick. FIVE picks within the top ~115. Guys think that just because we dont have a first round pick we are doomed. It's not the end of the world. Especially when you have 1 side of the ball at an elite level with plenty of depth. We dont need the Dallas Cowboys OL and I get the sense that it's what many fans "standard" is. It's not going to happen nor do we need it to happen. We dont need an elite OL to be successful. It needs to get way better dont get me wrong but some seem like they are swinging for the fences here.

[Mothman]

As for immediate starters, we have just about every back. I dont even consider Newman a starter anymore with the amount Waynes is playing. Munnerlyn could be the only one and I dont know if that will even happen. With Greenway retiring, we have his replacement in Lamur regardless.

Bottom line is, this is the first year in how long? Possibly ever, where we could say we dont have a monster whole somewhere on the defense. This is why I am saying that people are overreacting about this offseason IMO. There really isnt much we need to draft or sign in FA defensively. We need OL and RB. We have FIVE picks in the first 4 rounds and thats without a first round pick. FIVE picks within the top ~115. Guys think that just because we dont have a first round pick we are doomed. It's not the end of the world. Especially when you have 1 side of the ball at an elite level with plenty of depth. We dont need the Dallas Cowboys OL and I get the sense that it's what many fans "standard" is. It's not going to happen nor do we need it to happen. We dont need an elite OL to be successful. It needs to get way better dont get me wrong but some seem like they are swinging for the fences here.

There's nothing wrong with swinging for the fences. I think most people who bring up the Dallas line are probably just doing so to cite an example of how valuable a good OL can be to a team rather than suggesting the Vikes need an elite line to be successful. The Cowboys line (and the way it was built) represents a stark contrast to the Vikings line and the approach Spielman has taken to it over the years.

As for the offseason: losing a first round pick hurts but I agree the Vikings will have some good team-building resources available to them, both in the draft and in free agency.

[Pondering Her Percy]

It goes well beyond the o-line for me, to his handling of the QB position and his overall approach throughout the years.

See and I disagree with this as well. His "overall approach" over the years, has gotten us an elite defense. And if you're referring prior to 2012, I'm so far beyond that its not even funny. If you want to pin those draft picks back then on him go ahead but none of us truly know who was calling the shots back then. Could he have drafted a good OL back then that would still be on our team now?? Maybe I havent looked at the draft classes but either way, some are so hellbent on what he did prior to becoming GM in 2012. Some even bring up what he did in Miami which is pretty pathetic if you ask me. What he did there has ZERO to do with what he is doing here. He started a COMPLETE rebuild following the 2011 season. And when I say complete I mean there is only 8 guys on our current roster that were on that team. (Griffen, Robison, AP, Berger, Fusco, Rudolph, Sherels and Greenway). That's a complete roster overhaul if you ask me.

Again, I've yet to here a solution on what he could of done instead. And I repeat this any time I have this discussion. If he needed to pick OL with this pick or that pick, people have to understand that could have left us WITHOUT a lot of key defenders.

Say we go OL at #9 in 2014 and OL in the 2nd in 2015. We're without Anthony Barr and Eric Kendricks. Guess what would be sprayed all over this board if that was the case?????

....."Wow Spielman doesnt have a clue how to build a good LB corps"

......."He's done nothing but "ignore" the LBs"

...and so on. Bottom line is, no matter what he did over the past 5 years, he was going to get criticized one way or another. If he focused everything on OL and built a Dallas OL, guess what?? "He doesnt have a clue how to build a defense".

By no means am I sitting here saying the guy makes no mistakes. He definitely does. Just like any other GM. I agree 100% that he shouldve had a better plan in place at backup QB. The John Carlson signing was terrible, etc. But I am much more in favor of what he has done since 2012 than what he has not done. It's way more good than bad IMO.

We have a GM that focuses on building through the draft, not overspending in free agency, brought a very good coach in to lead this team, stays active in the draft and built an elite defense. There arent many guys out there that do that. There are actually a lot that do the complete opposite. And guys are calling for his head because we were decimated by injuries on the offense?And I dont want to hear the "our line wasnt good prior to the injuries" because it was clearly good enough to get us to the playoffs last year nor was it the reason we lost the Seattle game. AND Boone was added to it so if anything, it wouldve been better if it were to stay healthy. It didnt. It sucks. It just wasnt our year. I highly doubt Spielman will be going into this offseason without focus primarily on the OL.

[chicagopurple]

you are ignoring the fact that he bet our season on Sully who was pretty much doomed with herniated discs, Kalil who is a proven liability, and Clemmings who is a bust. That was NOT a plan that would get you to a Super Bowl.....

[Mothman]

See and I disagree with this as well. His "overall approach" over the years, has gotten us an elite defense.

Big deal. An elite defense is an elite defense, not an elite team. You can't just point to the elite defense and ignore the bottom-of-the-barrel offense, which is also a result of his approach.

And if you're referring prior to 2012, I'm so far beyond that its not even funny. If you want to pin those draft picks back then on him go ahead but none of us truly know who was calling the shots back then.

Sure we do: Spielman and Childress (and to some extent, Frazier in 2011). We can debate about who had the most influence on one move or another but ownership clearly stated that Spielman made the final calls on draft day and the picks alone are just part of the story. He ran the scouting department! He ran the draft. He was part of the "Triangle of Authority". This notion fans continue putting forth in his defense that he had so little responsibility for those teams that every year of his employment prior to 2012 should be dismissed when assessing his performance is utterly absurd. He was one of the highest-paid, most prominent executives in the organization. They weren't paying him to run errands and make coffee. He was arguably the single biggest influence on player personnel.

However, for those who want to wipe the slate clean prior to 2012, so be it: The Vikings now have 0 playoff wins under Spielman's leadership. He now had nothing to do with drafting Adrian Peterson, Brian Robison, Everson Griffin, Kyle Rudolph or even Christian Ponder (yes, apparently he gets to wipe that pick off his resumé as well).

Could he have drafted a good OL back then that would still be on our team now?? Maybe I havent looked at the draft classes but either way, some are so hellbent on what he did prior to becoming GM in 2012. Some even bring up what he did in Miami which is pretty pathetic if you ask me. What he did there has ZERO to do with what he is doing here. He started a COMPLETE rebuild following the 2011 season. And when I say complete I mean there is only 8 guys on our current roster that were on that team. (Griffen, Robison, AP, Berger, Fusco, Rudolph, Sherels and Greenway). That's a complete roster overhaul if you ask me.

He started it after the 2010 season and it was necessary in no small part because of his role in mismanaging the team.

Again, I've yet to here a solution on what he could of done instead. And I repeat this any time I have this discussion. If he needed to pick OL with this pick or that pick, people have to understand that could have left us WITHOUT a lot of key defenders.

Yes, we ALL understand that. It's been stated and acknowledged repeatedly and it's pretty obvious in the first place.

People have posted suggestions regarding what he could have done instead. You just choose to ignore or dismiss them and again, this isn't just about the offensive line.

We have a GM that focuses on building through the draft, not overspending in free agency, brought a very good coach in to lead this team, stays active in the draft and built an elite defense. There arent many guys out there that do that. There are actually a lot that do the complete opposite. And guys are calling for his head because we were decimated by injuries on the offense?

No.

That's not accurate.

People aren't calling for Spielman's head because the offense was decimated by injuries. We're saying he's not the right GM to build a champion. Elite defense or not, the Vikings have experienced almost zero postseason success on his watch. That's one of the main reasons some of us would like to see a change. Yes, we're frustrated by the way the offensive line was allowed to degenerate into a mess but we're also frustrated by mismanagement of the QB position, by too many missed opportunities or questionable draft decisions to go with the good decisions, by his seeming inability to build a complete team, by the way he and the team have essentially squandered the career of a HOF-caliber running back, by decisions like the Carlson signing, repeatedly settling for a putz like Jerome Simpson, failing to address the guard position for years while the obviously inadequate Charlie Johnson was starting. It's all of that and much more. This year's OL problems are just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back for many of us. The offense has been degenerating for 3 years now while Spielman and Zimmer have been building their elite defense. The latter is a tainted feather in the GM"s cap because the price of building it was allowing the offense to sink almost to the very bottom of the league.

An elite defense isn't the goal. A Super Bowl-winning team is the goal, at least I hope so.

[Pondering Her Percy]

you are ignoring the fact that he bet our season on Sully who was pretty much doomed with herniated discs, Kalil who is a proven liability, and Clemmings who is a bust. That was NOT a plan that would get you to a Super Bowl.....

Dude what are you even talking about?? He bet our season on Sully? We had Berger who filled in all of last year and is the 6th best center in the NFL according to PFF. He bet the season on Clemmings?? He had Andre Smith and Phil Loadholt at RT going into the offseason. Which would make Clemmings 3rd string. Kalil is Kalil. He's inconsistent. But by no means was Matt Kalil the reason we were or werent going to make playoffs or a SB.

I dont think your post could be anymore wrong to be honest. Outside of maybe Kalil. So no I am not "ignoring the facts". I just dont think you know or pay any attention to the facts because they are right above in my post.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Big deal. An elite defense is an elite defense, not an elite team. You can't just point to the elite defense and ignore the bottom-of-the-barrel offense, which is also a result of his approach.

^exactly what I am talking about. "Big deal". I would say it is a big deal Jim. You cant have the best of both worlds here. There isnt a team in the NFL with elite play on both sides of the ball. In order to build an elite defense, you might struggle to have an above average to elite offense. And vice versa. You cant build both at the same time. He isnt some kind of miracle worker.

Sure we do: Spielman and Childress (and to some extent, Frazier in 2011). We can debate about who had the most influence on one move or another but ownership clearly stated that Spielman made the final calls on draft day and the picks alone are just part of the story. He ran the scouting department! He ran the draft. He was part of the "Triangle of Authority". This notion fans continue putting forth in his defense that he had so little responsibility for those teams that every year of his employment prior to 2012 should be dismissed when assessing his performance is utterly absurd. He was one of the highest-paid, most prominent executives in the organization. They weren't paying him to run errands and make coffee. He was arguably the single biggest influence on player personnel.

However, for those who want to wipe the slate clean prior to 2012, so be it: The Vikings now have 0 playoff wins under Spielman's leadership. He now had nothing to do with drafting Adrian Peterson, Brian Robison, Everson Griffin, Kyle Rudolph or even Christian Ponder (yes, apparently he gets to wipe that pick off his resumé as well).

He went from the ground up in 2012 and we've made the playoffs twice. Probably 3 times if we didnt get hit with the injury bug this year. It's not like when Spielman took over we were the New England Patriots. We were more like the 49ers of right now. People think they know how those drafts went down but truthfully you dont. Unless you were a fly on the wall. It could of been him, it couldve been others. Granted he had a say but who's to say he wanted a guy that Chili didnt so they went in a different direction. Like I said, nobody know. I'm looking at when he was in full control. And that was 2012 and beyond.

Yes, we ALL understand that. It's been stated and acknowledged repeatedly and it's pretty obvious in the first place.

People have posted suggestions regarding what he could have done instead. You just choose to ignore or dismiss them and again, this isn't just about the offensive line.

I choose to ignore them huh? I havent seen one. But since you know me so well, I guess I'm ignoring them. By all means if you go back and find some solutions, I would be glad to assess them right here right now. But like I said, I have yet to see anything.

No.

That's not accurate.

People aren't calling for Spielman's head because the offense was decimated by injuries. We're saying he's not the right GM to build a champion. Elite defense or not, the Vikings have experienced almost zero postseason success on his watch. That's one of the main reasons some of us would like to see a change. Yes, we're frustrated by the way the offensive line was allowed to degenerate into a mess but we're also frustrated by mismanagement of the QB position, by too many missed opportunities or questionable draft decisions to go with the good decisions, by his seeming inability to build a complete team, by the way he and the team have essentially squandered the career of a HOF-caliber running back, by decisions like the Carlson signing, repeatedly settling for a putz like Jerome Simpson, failing to address the guard position for years while the obviously inadequate Charlie Johnson was starting. It's all of that and much more. This year's OL problems are just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back for many of us. The offense has been degenerating for 3 years now while Spielman and Zimmer have been building their elite defense. The latter is a tainted feather in the GM"s cap because the price of building it was allowing the offense to sink almost to the very bottom of the league.

An elite defense isn't the goal. A Super Bowl-winning team is the goal, at least I hope so.

Of course thats the goal but like I said, you cant have the best of both worlds. Yes the offense could be better. But injuries have definitely made it alot worse than it was. And his mismanagement of the QB position had nothing to do with how this year has gone record wise. Like I said, he started from scratch not that long ago. Did you really expect a Super Bowl that fast after a complete rebuild? I sure didnt expect it.

It's so easy to sit here and pick apart different things over the years with Spielman. However you can literally do that with any GM in the NFL.

Does Carolina have a bad GM because their secondary is awful?
Does GB have a bad GM because their secondary is awful and OL is below average right now?
Does Seattle have a bad GM because their OL is horrendous?
Does Denver have a bad GM because they didnt plan well for life after Manning?

You can ask these questions league wide. With the defense that Spielman has built, I dont have many worries about fixing the OL within the next two years. We should have no problem drafting a solid RB this year. Outside of that, the team isnt in need of a whole lot. The OL will be a process but can be done. We didnt have a very good OL last year and we should've been onto Arizona in the playoffs and possibly even further.

You can see what defenses can do in this league. Just look at last year with Denver. They dont need some kind of high powered offense to win it all. We have the pieces in place. We just need to fix up the OL, let AP walk and draft a RB. The rest of the offense is fine. Bradford/Teddy can win games. These WRs are deep and can make plays. We have a good TE. It's OL and RB. Along with a little depth throughout. Some act like we're stripped down to nothing.

[Thaumaturgist]

Sure we do: Spielman and Childress (and to some extent, Frazier in 2011). We can debate about who had the most influence on one move or another but ownership clearly stated that Spielman made the final calls on draft day and the picks alone are just part of the story. He ran the scouting department! He ran the draft. He was part of the "Triangle of Authority". This notion fans continue putting forth in his defense that he had so little responsibility for those teams that every year of his employment prior to 2012 should be dismissed when assessing his performance is utterly absurd. He was one of the highest-paid, most prominent executives in the organization. They weren't paying him to run errands and make coffee. He was arguably the single biggest influence on player personnel.

Umm.. No, actually Childress had the final say over the 53 man roster, AND the draft picks.

Childress Gets his way

Coach Brad Childress long ago made it clear that he has final say over the Vikings' 53-man roster. On Monday, he used that authority by making a decision that could come back to bite him in a big way.

TOA is unique in the draft room

But, when it comes to making the call to New York to lock down a draft pick, it's Spielman's job to assign talent grades to players and let the coach pick which need is more a priority when the pick comes in.

I think the point is we don't really know how much say he really had in things. And I'm with you on Spielman.

[chicagopurple]

Buddy, when you spend 45 yrs supporting this team, driving Chicago to MN to watch them, etc etc...there is no such thing as "over reacting". At this point, every season is "#### or get off the pot". Just making the playoffs is not sufficient. Either you are building a team designed to win it all, or you are just jerking us off. This team hasnt been a model of success that the rest of the league seeks to emulate. It should be. That should be the ONLY goal.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Buddy, when you spend 45 yrs supporting this team, driving Chicago to MN to watch them, etc etc...there is no such thing as "over reacting". At this point, every season is "#### or get off the pot". Just making the playoffs is not sufficient. Either you are building a team designed to win it all, or you are just jerking us off. This team hasnt been a model of success that the rest of the league seeks to emulate. It should be. That should be the ONLY goal.

I understand what you're saying. I'm not ok with just making playoffs. But I also realize that we truly have one piece of a SB caliber team. Many teams in the league cannot say that right now. We can. And I have confidence that Spielman and Zim will work their way to making this offense better within the offseason.