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jackal wrote: IMO, most of Robison sacks are as a result of Griffen, or someone else collapsing the pocket. Robison then gets a QB, who half fallen over or worse.
He just does not create a lot of pressure, on his own IMO. I honestly thought Crighton from Oregon State, would be pushing him for time, but seems
to not be a favorite of the staff, at all.

Could not disagree more. He has been a very good player and makes most of his own plays, plus puts great pressure on the QB causing numerous "rushed throws" and more than his fare share of sacks!

jackal wrote: IMO, most of Robison sacks are as a result of Griffen, or someone else collapsing the pocket. Robison then gets a QB, who half fallen over or worse.
He just does not create a lot of pressure, on his own IMO. I honestly thought Crighton from Oregon State, would be pushing him for time, but seems
to not be a favorite of the staff, at all.

Yeah that statement is just nowhere near true. A few months back, I proved this wrong when the negative people on here said the only reason Robison was getting sacks was because of Jared Allen getting double teamed. As I proved, it was false. I literally posted every Brian Robison sack that exists on Youtube and there wasn't a single one where Allen was double so Robison did all the work himself.

To now say his results are due to Griffen makes zero sense as well. This was Griffen's first year starting so when Robison got all those sacks the past few years who was that a result of?? Jared Allen?? Wrong. You obviously don't pay much attention to Robison when he sacks the QB because many of his sacks over his career have been created by himself and only himself.

Also, I wouldnt say Crichton isn't a "favorite" of the staffs. They simply said that he just wasn't ready yet and needed to get stronger. Similar to Yankey's situation. You have to remember, not all incoming rookies make an immediate impact. Look at Everson Griffen.

jackal wrote: IMO, most of Robison sacks are as a result of Griffen, or someone else collapsing the pocket. Robison then gets a QB, who half fallen over or worse.
He just does not create a lot of pressure, on his own IMO. I honestly thought Crighton from Oregon State, would be pushing him for time, but seems
to not be a favorite of the staff, at all.

Exactly. He was better in the cover 2 where he could come off the edge. He's a liability in this defense. I posted last year to watch him, and a number of people did and saw the issues he has. He gets muscled out of run plays. His one big play was him getting manhandled down the line and not over running the play like he usually does. Not only that he's making too much for what he brings, and is 32 years old. Thank goodness they didn't wait until they cut him to try and find a replacement. The way Zimmer likes to rotate his players could help a guy like Hunter as well who could contribute immediately as a situational guy, and probably replace Robison as the primary end sooner rather than later, learning the position the entire time.

Demi wrote: Exactly. He was better in the cover 2 where he could come off the edge. He's a liability in this defense. I posted last year to watch him, and a number of people did and saw the issues he has. He gets muscled out of run plays. His one big play was him getting manhandled down the line and not over running the play like he usually does. Not only that he's making too much for what he brings, and is 32 years old. Thank goodness they didn't wait until they cut him to try and find a replacement. The way Zimmer likes to rotate his players could help a guy like Hunter as well who could contribute immediately as a situational guy, and probably replace Robison as the primary end sooner rather than later, learning the position the entire time.

No not exactly. As I said, from the videos I posted a while back, the reason Robison was getting sacks had nothing to do with Griffen, Allen or whoever. I'll be the first to admit that he wasn't good in this defense last year, partly due to him now being 32 as well. He was better in Frazier's defense but for anyone to sit there and say he was getting sacks because of someone else or got to the QB when he was "half fallen over" just doesnt make any sense. I agree with part of your post but not the part where you're agreeing with Jackal because that's simply not true

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
No not exactly. As I said, from the videos I posted a while back, the reason Robison was getting sacks had nothing to do with Griffen, Allen or whoever. I'll be the first to admit that he wasn't good in this defense last year, partly due to him now being 32 as well. He was better in Frazier's defense but for anyone to sit there and say he was getting sacks because of someone else or got to the QB when he was "half fallen over" just doesnt make any sense. I agree with part of your post but not the part where you're agreeing with Jackal because that's simply not true

Jared Allen, in his prime, would not be a fit in this defense. that's not a knock on him, its just reality. The fit matters.

fiestavike wrote: Jared Allen, in his prime, would not be a fit in this defense. that's not a knock on him, its just reality. The fit matters.

I agree and that is what I'm saying. People on here were saying Robison gets his sacks because of Allen and Griffen which was entirely false no matter what way you look at it.

fiestavike wrote: Jared Allen, in his prime, would not be a fit in this defense. that's not a knock on him, its just reality. The fit matters.

I disagree entirely. I think a HOFer like Jared Allen, in his prime would fit in any defense. Players win games, not schemes, I mean, what D coordinator wouldnt want Jared Allen in his prime?

Jordysghost wrote: I disagree entirely. I think a HOFer like Jared Allen, in his prime would fit in any defense. Players win games, not schemes, I mean, what D coordinator wouldnt want Jared Allen in his prime?

I agree. In his prime, Allen was a solid run defender as well as an elite pass rusher. I don't think there's anything Griffen does in the Vikes current defense that Allen, at the peak of his game, couldn't have handled.

Mothman wrote:
I agree. In his prime, Allen was a solid run defender as well as an elite pass rusher. I don't think there's anything Griffen does in the Vikes current defense that Allen, at the peak of his game, couldn't have handled.

He just didn't have the strength to collapse the pocket. It was never his game. He was great at getting around guys, but that's not what Griffin is asked to do.

Robison's game is much more similar to Allen's.

fiestavike wrote:He just didn't have the strength to collapse the pocket. It was never his game. He was great at getting around guys, but that's not what Griffin is asked to do.

Robison's game is much more similar to Allen's.

Maybe I'm seriously misunderstanding Zimmer's defense but I don't think Griffen's role is to collapse the pocket either. If I'm not mistaken, it's to set the edge and rush the passer, both of which Allen did quite well in his prime. In Zimmer's defense, as in most, I believe responsibility for collapsing the pocket falls more to the interior linemen. Obviously, to some extent, any pass rush collapses the pocket but outside pass rushers do that by rushing from the edge and Allen excelled in that department. It's setting the edge against the run that requires strength and Allen was able to do that in his prime too. Let's not forget, for years he was part of one of the most dominating run defenses the NFL has ever seen. That wasn't just because of the "Williams Wall", although they were the key to it.

Mothman wrote: Maybe I'm seriously misunderstanding Zimmer's defense but I don't think Griffen's role is to collapse the pocket either. If I'm not mistaken, it's to set the edge and rush the passer, both of which Allen did quite well in his prime. In Zimmer's defense, as in most, I believe responsibility for collapsing the pocket falls more to the interior linemen. Obviously, to some extent, any pass rush collapses the pocket but outside pass rushers do that by rushing from the edge and Allen excelled in that department. It's setting the edge against the run that requires strength and Allen was able to do that in his prime too. Let's not forget, for years he was part of one of the most dominating run defenses the NFL has ever seen. That wasn't just because of the "Williams Wall", although they were the key to it.

I think its just a matter of degrees. It seems evident to me, watching griffin last year, that in addition to setting the edge, he was expected to move where that edge was located. He consistently and effectively got his arm into the chest of the Lineman and drove him backwards while remaining in a position to disengage and make a play on the ballcarrier/quarterback. Griffen didn't show many "moves" last year, he just physically dominated and showed good technical ability with his hand placement and steps. That put him in position to just use his athleticism. (This is one reason I'm excited about Hunter).

I agree that Allen had the ability to hold his ground against the run, but Zimmer, I believe wants more than that. He wants his players to kick the @#$ of the guy in front of him, win the 1 on 1s. He's sort of like George C Scott as Patton..."We're not gonna hold onto anything, we'll let the Kraut do that!" He wants his guys to go through the opponent, not just stop them.

That's another reason, I believe, he's not overly concerned with sack numbers. They'll get distributed however they get distributed, but if everyone is collapsing the pocket and pushing that edge inside, the sacks will come, the running lanes will be closed, the linebackers will remain uncovered and free to make plays, and the defense will be successful.

fiestavike wrote:I think its just a matter of degrees. It seems evident to me, watching griffin last year, that in addition to setting the edge, he was expected to move where that edge was located. He consistently and effectively got his arm into the chest of the Lineman and drove him backwards while remaining in a position to disengage and make a play on the ballcarrier/quarterback. Griffen didn't show many "moves" last year, he just physically dominated and showed good technical ability with his hand placement and steps. That put him in position to just use his athleticism. (This is one reason I'm excited about Hunter).

I agree that Allen had the ability to hold his ground against the run, but Zimmer, I believe wants more than that. He wants his players to kick the @#$ of the guy in front of him, win the 1 on 1s. He's sort of like George C Scott as Patton..."We're not gonna hold onto anything, we'll let the Kraut do that!" He wants his guys to go through the opponent, not just stop them.

That's another reason, I believe, he's not overly concerned with sack numbers. They'll get distributed however they get distributed, but if everyone is collapsing the pocket and pushing that edge inside, the sacks will come, the running lanes will be closed, the linebackers will remain uncovered and free to make plays, and the defense will be successful.

I see what you're saying and I think we are, indeed, talking about a matter of degrees. I have little doubt Allen, in his prime, could have played and thrived in Zimmer's defense but in terms of fit, Griffen may be a more ideal fit for the scheme than Allen would have been.

i'll bet Zimmer would have enjoyed having Allen from about 2006-2010 to find out.

Haven't heard much about Hunter lately. Almost forgot we drafted him.

808vikingsfan wrote:Haven't heard much about Hunter lately. Almost forgot we drafted him.

And I almost forgot about those beastly arms.

808vikingsfan wrote:Haven't heard much about Hunter lately. Almost forgot we drafted him

That's why he's wearing that bright yellow helmet. He wants to make sure he's noticed!