Vikings/Browns talk

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The Breeze
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by The Breeze »

mansquatch wrote:The NFL has unintentionall created an incentive for team mgmt to sell everything out for a Franchise QB. How many of the coaches/GMs in the league have had a long tenure without a Franchise QB? On average I bet it is 3-5 years tops. Get one and you are immortal for 8-10 years, tons of media fanfare, and big $$$. I get that from a competitive standpoint this type of attitude is disgusting, but can anyone deny that this incentive exists?

Unless the NFL makes rules changes such that other positions are made more valueable (ie change all the stupid pass interference penalities) this will continue.
shades of the NBA. It's just a symptom of the instant gratification pop culture IMO.

Way too much economic reliance on casual fans who don't have the passion for teams and teambuilding. Fantasy freaks.
Eli
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by Eli »

Somebody list all of the significant changes to pass interference rules from the past (say) twenty years.

The only one that I can think of offhand (and I don't know when it was implemented) was the rule against contact beyond five yards from the line of scrimmage. There are also rules against hitting a defenseless receiver, but they're not PI rules and they weren't drawn up to favor the passing game.
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by PacificNorseWest »

Eli wrote:Somebody list all of the significant changes to pass interference rules from the past (say) twenty years.

The only one that I can think of offhand (and I don't know when it was implemented) was the rule against contact beyond five yards from the line of scrimmage. There are also rules against hitting a defenseless receiver, but they're not PI rules and they weren't drawn up to favor the passing game.
I think there's been more emphasis on things as opposed to clear rule changes. I'd also be curious to see a list of rule changes.
The Breeze
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by The Breeze »

I think as far rule changes go, it's the rules around protecting QBs that have made the biggest impact. Brady will likely play til he's 48 yrs old at this rate.

I think the PI rules are the same, they just call it much quicker now days. The stuff defenders used to get away with as far as holding and being aggressive, get flagged for automatic 1st downs now.

When a lineman is coming at a QB, who is in the act of passing, and has his hands up trying to deflect the ball, gets called for a 15 yarder cause one of his hands makes insignificant contact with the QBs helmet.......that's when I laugh and think this league is cutting off it's nose to spite it's face.
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by mondry »

The Breeze wrote:I think as far rule changes go, it's the rules around protecting QBs that have made the biggest impact. Brady will likely play til he's 48 yrs old at this rate.

I think the PI rules are the same, they just call it much quicker now days. The stuff defenders used to get away with as far as holding and being aggressive, get flagged for automatic 1st downs now.

When a lineman is coming at a QB, who is in the act of passing, and has his hands up trying to deflect the ball, gets called for a 15 yarder cause one of his hands makes insignificant contact with the QBs helmet.......that's when I laugh and think this league is cutting off it's nose to spite it's face.
Yeah, it's more about the safety rules and unfortunately the offense benefits from just about all of them more than a defense will. The newest one with the crown of the helmet is the only one that might actually happen to an offensive player and it happens to be the running back as the most likely culprit heh.

But even something like the kick offs being moved up takes away from special teams, more emphasis on the actual offense (and thus QB's) scoring points.

It's not that anyone thing is overwhelmingly responsible but it's all adding up.
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by Mothman »

psjordan wrote:Holy cow an awful lot of confidence on this board.

When was the last time this team blew out ANYBODY?
Last year. They blew the Titans out 30-7 in the Metrodome in week 5.

You could argue that they blew the Rams out too. The final score was 36-22 but it was 33-7 going into the 4th quarter.
C'mon Man. This team has zero meaningful experience blowing out another team. We have no idea how to do it, what it feels like or when or why it should be done.
How quickly we forget... ;)
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by headless_norseman »

mansquatch wrote:
Unless the NFL makes rules changes such that other positions are made more valueable (ie change all the stupid pass interference penalities) this will continue.

There's the crux and what the NFL wants. They want a passing and offensive orientated league and that's why the QB position has become as important as it has. And they ain't changing it.
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mondry
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by mondry »

At the same time though, if they made it easier to play QB or offense or score and yet it's still hard to find a QB, that's also saying something!
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by The Breeze »

mondry wrote:At the same time though, if they made it easier to play QB or offense or score and yet it's still hard to find a QB, that's also saying something!
yeah, it's saying that if you're one of the teams fortunate enough to have an elite QB, you'll have an advantage for a decade and a half.
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by Reignman »

headless_norseman wrote:
There's the crux and what the NFL wants. They want a passing and offensive orientated league and that's why the QB position has become as important as it has. And they ain't changing it.
I wouldn't watch football if the games were always 10-7. Nobody wants to watch a 3 n out battle. I don't want to see 51-48 games every week either, but the game needs to have a good flow to make it enjoyable and keep it popular. However I wish they'd change PI to a standard 10-15yd penalty and an automatic first down instead of a spot foul. A 50yd penalty is assuming too much and putting too much power in the hands of the officials.
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by Reignman »

psjordan wrote:C'mon Man. This team has zero meaningful experience blowing out another team. We have no idea how to do it, what it feels like or when or why it should be done.
That's because we haven't had an aggressive coach in how long? Maybe Tice? Chilly and Frazier are about as soft and conservative as a coach can get. To me it just feels like one of those games where we'll overcome our overly conservative coaches and accidentally blow the Browns out. But like I said, I felt that way about the Bucs game last year too and the Bucs destroyed us.
Eli wrote:Somebody list all of the significant changes to pass interference rules from the past (say) twenty years.
I collected from the wiki what I deemed to be rule changes that benefited offenses. To be fair I saw quite a few rule changes that benefited the defense as well, but this is about offense. And some I just threw in there for fun xD.
The league passed major rule changes to encourage offensive scoring. In 1977 -- the last year of the so-called "Dead Ball Era" -- teams scored an average of 17.2 points per game, the lowest total since the 1940s.

1978 - To open up the passing game, defenders are permitted to make contact with receivers only to a point of five yards beyond the line of scrimmage. This applies only to the time before the ball is thrown, at which point any contact is pass interference. Previously, contact was allowed anywhere on the field. This is usually referred to as the "Mel Blount Rule"

1978 - Double touching of a forward pass is legal, but batting a pass towards the opponent's end zone is illegal. Previously, a second offensive player could not legally catch a deflected pass unless a defensive player had touched it. This is usually referred to as the "Mel Renfro Rule". During a play in Super Bowl V, Baltimore Colts receiver Eddie Hinton tipped a pass intended for him. Renfro, the Cowboys defensive back, made a stab at the ball and it was ruled that he tipped it ever so slightly (which he denied) into the arms of Colts tight end John Mackey, who ran for a touchdown. Later, this rule was also the one in question during the Immaculate Reception in 1972. But despite these two incidents, the rule change did not occur until this season.

1978 - The pass blocking rules were extended to permit extended arms and open hands.

1978 - The penalty for intentional grounding is reduced from a loss of down and 15 yards to a loss of down and 10 yards from the previous spot (or at the spot of the foul if the spot is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage). If the passer commits the foul in his own end zone, the defense scores a safety.

1978 - Hurdling is no longer a foul.

1978 - A seventh official, the Side Judge, is added to the officiating crew to help rule on legalities downfield. The addition of 15 officials (one per crew) forced three-digit numbers to be used for the first time.

1979 - The zone in which crackback blocks are prohibited is extended from 3 yards on either side of the line of scrimmage to 5.
Players cannot use their helmets to butt, spear, or ram an opponent. Any player who uses the crown or the top of his helmet unnecessarily will be called for unnecessary roughness.

1979 - Players cannot use their helmets to butt, spear, or ram an opponent. Any player who uses the crown or the top of his helmet unnecessarily will be called for unnecessary roughness.

1981 - The penalty for illegal use of hands, arms, or body (including holding) is reduced from 15 yards to 10 yards.

1981 - The penalty for intentional grounding is modified: loss of down and 10 yards penalty from the previous spot, or if the foul occurs more than 10 yards from the line of scrimmage, loss of down at the spot of the foul.

1984 - Leaping to try to block a field goal or an extra point is illegal unless the defensive player was lined up at the line of scrimmage.

1987 - If a defensive player commits pass interference in his own end zone, the ball is placed at the 1-yard line, or if the previous spot was inside the 2-yard line, the penalty is half the distance to the goal line.

1987 - In order to stop the clock, the quarterback is permitted to throw the ball out of bounds or to the ground as long as he throws it immediately after receiving the snap.

1994 - The "Neutral zone infraction" foul is adopted. A play is automatically dead before the snap when a defensive player enters the neutral zone and causes an offensive player to react.

1995 - An eligible receiver forced out of bounds by a defensive player may return to the field and automatically become eligible to legally be the first player to touch a forward pass.

1995 - Quarterbacks may now receive communications from the bench from a small radio receiver in their helmets, partly repealing a rule that had been in force since 1956

1996 - In order to reduce injuries, hits with the helmet or to the head will be personal fouls and subject to fines.

1998 - A defensive player can no longer flinch before the snap in an attempt to draw movement from an offensive linemen.

1999 - "Tuck rule" is implemented

2000 - The "Bert Emanuel" rule was implemented. A receiver has to have possession of the ball and control of the ball. If when making a catch and falling to the ground, the ball is allowed to touch the ground and still be considered a catch if the player maintains clear control of the ball.

2001 - Roughing the passer will be strictly enforced.

2002 - A player who touches a pylon remains in-bounds until any part of his body touches the ground out-of-bounds.

2002 - Hitting a quarterback helmet-to-helmet anytime after a change of possession is illegal.

2002 - The home team must determine whether their retractable roof is to be opened or closed 90 minutes before kickoff

2004 - Due to several instances during the 2003–04 playoffs, officials are instructed to strictly enforce illegal contact, pass interference, and defensive holding.

2004 - Timeouts can be called by head coaches.

2004 - In addition to the numbers 80–89, wide receivers will now be allowed to use numbers 10–19.

2005 - The "horse-collar tackle," in which a defender grabs inside the back or side of an opponent’s shoulder pads and pulls that player down, is prohibited.

2005 - During field goal and extra point attempts, the defensive team will be penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct if it calls consecutive timeouts in an attempt to "ice" the kicker.

2005 - If the defensive team commits a dead ball foul following the end of the half, the offensive team may choose to extend the period for one more play. Previously, the half automatically ended without the defensive team being penalized.

2006 - End zone celebrations became more restricted. Players cannot celebrate by using any type of prop, or do any act in which they are on the ground. Players may still spike, spin the ball, or dunk it over the goal posts. Dancing in the end zone is also permitted as long as it is not a prolonged or group celebration. The Lambeau Leap, though, is still legal.

2006 - Defenders were prohibited from hitting a passer in the knee or below unless they are blocked into him.

2006 - The "horse-collar tackle" rule enacted during the previous 2005 season was expanded. Players are now prohibited from tackling a ball carrier from the rear by tugging inside his jersey. Previously, it was only illegal if the tackler's hand got inside the player's shoulder pads.

2006 - To reduce injuries, defensive players cannot line up directly over the long snapper during field goal and extra point attempts.

2007 - Forward passes that unintentionally hit an offensive lineman before an eligible receiver will no longer be an illegal touching penalty, but deliberate actions are still penalized

2007 - A completed catch is now when a receiver gets two feet down and has control of the ball. Previously, a receiver had to make "a football move" in addition to having control of the ball for a reception.

2009 - The initial contact to the head of a defenseless receiver is also prohibited.

2009 - Clarified the 2006 rule about hitting passers below the knees; a defender on the ground cannot lunge or dive at or below the passer's knees.

2010 - During field goal and extra point attempts, defenders cannot line up directly across from the long snapper.

2010 - Punt returners who make a fair catch signal but then muff the ball are now entitled with the opportunity to catch the ball before it hits the ground without interference. If there is interference during such a scenario, the receiving team would be awarded the ball at the spot of the foul, but no penalty yardage would be assessed.

2011 - players on the kickoff coverage team cannot line up more than 5 yards behind the kickoff line, minimizing running starts and thus reducing the speed of collisions.

2011 - Nicknamed the "Boise State Rule", all playing fields must remain green, and not be in another color like the blue turf at Boise State's Bronco Stadium, unless approval is granted by the league. This was passed in response to a few sponsors who requested to change the colors in a few stadiums.

2011 - Players will be prohibited from "launching" (leaving both feet prior to contact to spring forward and upward into an opponent or using any part of the helmet to initiate forcible contact against any part of the opponent’s body) to level a defenseless player, as well as "forcibly hitting the neck or head area with the helmet, facemask, forearm or shoulder regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him.", and lowering the head and make forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/"hairline" parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body. Offenders will be penalized 15 yards for unnecessary roughness and ejected from the game if the contact is deemed flagrant. The league has instructed game officials to "err on the side of caution" when calling such personal foul penalties, and that they will not be downgraded if they make a mistake so that they will not hesitate on making these kinds of calls.

2012 - The penalty for 12 men on the field (not in the huddle) is changed from a live-ball foul to a dead-ball foul, with the whistle being blown if the defense has 12 men on the field and the "snap is imminent".

2012 - Last names on uniforms can now include generational suffixes such as Roman numerals (in the case of Robert Griffin III), Junior (Jr.), and Senior (Sr.) designations.

2013 - On field goal attempts, long snappers will now be considered defenseless players, the defense can have no more than six players on one side of the ball at the snap (5 yard penalty), and players not on the line cannot push teammates into blockers (15 yard penalty).

2013 - Any player at least three yards downfield or outside of the "tackle box" will be penalized 15 yards for leading with the helmet on hits.
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by joe h »

Winning means nothing, just that we are better than the worst, or second worst, team. But if we lose, season over, and I want to see the whole thing blown up. Coaching staff, Ponder, and Spielman shown the door. Going into a season with three first rounders, we should be at the top of the division, not competing with Jacksonville and Cleveland for a 1st pick.
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by PurpleHalo »

BGM wrote:Honestly, the worst run franchise in the NFL. My guess is they'll go winless and then select Jadaveon Clowney. Then trade him. Why? Because they are the Browns.

The only upside to this is if they really are looking to pull a "Major League" and lose out. It is probably the stupidest thing I have ever seen. If they get a QB, then what? They are a hot mess top to bottom.
They have a good offensive line, next move is to get a QB of note. I wish the Vikings would pay attention here. On the surface though, it looks like a dumb trade. Turning a 3rd overall pick into a low 1st rounder, Colts will be in the playoffs.
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by Eli »

Reignman wrote: I collected from the wiki what I deemed to be rule changes that benefited offenses. To be fair I saw quite a few rule changes that benefited the defense as well, but this is about offense. And some I just threw in there for fun xD.
The league passed major rule changes to encourage offensive scoring. In 1977 -- the last year of the so-called "Dead Ball Era" -- teams scored an average of 17.2 points per game, the lowest total since the 1940s.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the following are the only ones that pertain to pass interference:
1978 - To open up the passing game, defenders are permitted to make contact with receivers only to a point of five yards beyond the line of scrimmage. This applies only to the time before the ball is thrown, at which point any contact is pass interference. Previously, contact was allowed anywhere on the field. This is usually referred to as the "Mel Blount Rule"
Yep, that's the major (or only) one.
1987 - If a defensive player commits pass interference in his own end zone, the ball is placed at the 1-yard line, or if the previous spot was inside the 2-yard line, the penalty is half the distance to the goal line.
That's two. Although it affects the penalty for PI, it doesn't change what constitutes PI.
2004 - Due to several instances during the 2003–04 playoffs, officials are instructed to strictly enforce illegal contact, pass interference, and defensive holding.
This isn't a new rule. This is like the boss telling everyone that lunches must be kept under one hour. At first, everyone complies, then gradually they go back to the way they always did it.
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Re: Vikings/Browns talk

Post by BGM »

PurpleHalo wrote:
They have a good offensive line, .

Not sure that I agree with that. 11 sacks and 27 QB hits in 2 games, and 29th in rushing yards.
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