Page 4 of 5

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:04 am
by King James
I always thought Ponder's main weakness was his decision making. It has nothing to do with his arm, the guy can throw. I just think that he rather go with a short throw that looks safe than take a shot downfield. He worries too much about making not mistakes and still makes mistakes from thinking too much.

Once Ponder learns how to go through his progressions and wait for the guy to get open downfield. Ponder is aware of this. I think now he will go in with more confidence and attempt more shots downfield. I think last season, he wasn't sure on how the team would accept as the leader of the team. Now that he knows that the players are behind him as their leader, he will probably be more vocal to his WRs and position them where they need to be when he hits them on a route.

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:46 am
by The Breeze
On the topic of Ponder's decision making and accuracy I always go back to his rookie season, week 15 against the Lions in particular. Up until that game (in which he got destroyed) Ponder had played in 6 games after no camp or time practicing with the starters because of the worm killing McRibb experiment/debacle.

His stats up to that point (6games) were:

112/199 1388yds 8.1 average per pass

9 tds 8 ints

sacked 23times and ran 18times for 154yds

Pretty decent considering the circumstances, being thrown into the fire. They weren't winning games. The O-line was playing pitifully...but he did have AD, Harvin, Jenkins and Shank...right? He did have the 29/47 381 3td 2int performance against Denver too.

Then came the Lions game: 11/23 115 5.5 2td 3int 3 sacks. Vanden Bosch absolutely crushed him toward the end of the 1st half, out of the pocket and blindsided. He really hurt Ponder's hip. Webb finished the game. Ponder was not even close to being effective after that game and Webb played just as much if not more down the stretch.

The final 4 games Ponder was 26/54 216 3.9 2td 4int 7 sacks.

I just threw the numbers out there to show the drastic decline after the Lion game. That's when I noticed a huge difference in his demeanor on the field and in his confidence in general. At first he came in full of pep, running around and making plays the best he could, given his experience...then he looked like a deer in the headlights. I noticed the same thing with TJack, McNabb(who often looked like he was just trying to find a soft place fall on the turf) and even the 2010/11 version of Favre( who I think was absolutely nuts to come back and play on bad ankles behind that horrid O-line).

There's a reason coaches and GMs are hesitant to throw young QBs out into the fray when their O-line defines instability, and their best WR from a route running perspective is about 3 seasons removed from his prime. (which wasn't all that great to begin with)

This teams down field passing game has been an absolute mess since TJack, and I, and others, would argue that it had to do just as much with the O-line and receiving corp as it did with any QB. The exception of course was Favre 2009, which, IMO, had more to do with Favre knowing more about running an offense, reading a defense and blitzes, better than the whole coaching staff combined, as well as having a healthy Rice..... despite that he still got physically murdered in the NFCCG.

My point is eventually, other than AD, what the hell has Ponder had to be confident in? That he is not quite as good as Favre's best season ever? What reason has he had to trust his WRs? His best WR (Harvin) could not be consistently relied on to be where he was supposed to be on routes and relied on his athleticism to make up for it...then he had the nerve to openly diss the QB for his performance? Not trustworthy IMO.

Last season was a big step in the right direction bringing in Kahlil and Felton...the development of Rudolph. But the WR situation was the worst I've ever seen for this franchise...just awful. Jenkins....that was it. He was only guy that actually could be considered a legit pro and he couldn't stay healthy long enough to have any real impact. Luck has Wayne, Newton has Smith...even Dalton has a guy in Green. I'm sure they all would trade any of those guys for Aromashodu, but Cutler has him now. :rock:

Bringing in Cassel was a move that was way over due. Cutting Sage in favor of JWebb was stooopid. Lesson learned. They drafted Ponder knowing he had the tools physically and that he is smart. They knew he would need time to develop. Their defensive backfield was nearly as bad as the WR situation. It's taken a couple of off seasons to make some much needed changes. But with the additions of Jennings and Harrison/Rhodes, they may have hit huge homeruns. If Patterson, Wright and even Simpson can learn the game the way Jennings plays it...including positive attitude, what a boon it will be.
So, it appears that Ponder has a lot more to trust going forward. It doesn't make any sense to me to suggest that Cassel is here to anything but help him get better and back him up. So, I will reserve my opinions on his confidence/decision making and accuracy until things unfold some more. It's been a bad situation...but it could have the benefit of temperance once it stabilizes.

Imagine where they'd be without AD and a guy who doesn't miss FGs from 50+yds. No more coffee for me......

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:20 pm
by VikeMike
I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Ponder struggle in the first half of the season, as he and the new WR corps develop. Are, you can hope that they develop chemistry in the OTAs, training camp and preseason, but it seems likely that they will have to develop during the season. For that, I don't expect Frazier to have a short leash on Ponder. This is his make or break season, and I suspect that they will be patient with all the new moving parts. It will also depend on how the OC develops the play book and how he calls the games.

I also expect many fans to have fits if Ponder doesn't meet their expectations right out of the gate. That's one of the pitfalls of an unexpected 10-6 record and playoff berth. I hope he can be a very efficient QB from the very beginning, but I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't.

Inside the locker room, I don't think there will be a QB controversy. Outside of it, I expect cats and dogs sleeping together.

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:56 pm
by King James
If anybody should be scared to lose their job it should be Bill Musgrave with his vanilla play calling. How do we expect Ponder to really show what he's got when we all know how the offense runs under Musgrave?

1st Possesion

1st down: Run
2nd down: Run
3rd down: Pass
4th down: Punt if 4th & Inches: Run/Punt

2nd Possession

1st down: Run
2nd down: Pass
3rd down: Run
4th down: Punt

3rd Possession

1st down: Pass
2nd down: run
3rd down: run
4th down: punt

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:29 pm
by Mothman
JEC334 wrote:If anybody should be scared to lose their job it should be Bill Musgrave with his vanilla play calling. How do we expect Ponder to really show what he's got when we all know how the offense runs under Musgrave?

1st Possesion

1st down: Run
2nd down: Run
3rd down: Pass
4th down: Punt if 4th & Inches: Run/Punt

2nd Possession

1st down: Run
2nd down: Pass
3rd down: Run
4th down: Punt

3rd Possession

1st down: Pass
2nd down: run
3rd down: run
4th down: punt
Is there an option other than run or pass you'd like him to choose? ;)

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:36 pm
by dead_poet
Mothman wrote: Is there an option other than run or pass you'd like him to choose? ;)
1st down: run
2nd down: pass
3rd down: MAGIC SCORING PLAY!

Dur, Jim.

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:43 pm
by Cliff
Run
Pass
?????
Profit

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:47 pm
by dead_poet
Cliff wrote:Run
Pass
?????
Profit
Nicely done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO5sxLapAts

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:09 pm
by King James
808vikingsfan wrote: Your assessment is inaccurate. They were almost a 50-50 split run vs pass (and averaged the same yds/play too).
I couldn't tell. Almost every memorable play the Vikings had last year were runs. Ponder had a couple of good passes and even he ran for a couple of TDs last year. If my assessment is inaccurate, then why does every opposing defense load the box on just about every down? They knew we were getting ready to run the ball but it didnt matter because Adrian Peterson did what he does best and make plays.

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:16 pm
by S197
JEC334 wrote:I couldn't tell. Almost every memorable play the Vikings had last year were runs. Ponder had a couple of good passes and even he ran for a couple of TDs last year. If my assessment is inaccurate, then why does every opposing defense load the box on just about every down? They knew we were getting ready to run the ball but it didnt matter because Adrian Peterson did what he does best and make plays.
I think you just answered your own question. We run the ball because we have the MVP at RB. Defenses stack the box because we have the MVP at RB.

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:29 pm
by Mothman
JEC334 wrote:I couldn't tell. Almost every memorable play the Vikings had last year were runs. Ponder had a couple of good passes and even he ran for a couple of TDs last year. If my assessment is inaccurate, then why does every opposing defense load the box on just about every down? They knew we were getting ready to run the ball but it didnt matter because Adrian Peterson did what he does best and make plays.
Because the biggest threat was in the backfield and there was no legitimate deep threat to keep that extra man back.

That said, there were quite a few memorable pass plays last year and some of them were even positive plays for the Vikes! ;)

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:00 am
by PacificNorseWest
There's Sam Cassell and the how Matt spells his name...Cassel. Bugs me. :lol:

Anyway...Cassel, at this point in his career, epitomizes the backup QB role. He's not a guy that Ponder should feel threatened by.

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:05 pm
by Purple bruise
Jennings Already A Big Fan Of Ponder. "I love him," Jennings said. "I love his personality, I love his demeanor on the field. The one thing we talk about, and I've shared with him more than anything, is the trust factor because he has everything he needs. The skill set, he has it. It's just about trusting the other guy."

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2013/6/21/ ... -of-ponder

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:50 pm
by King James
S197 wrote: I think you just answered your own question. We run the ball because we have the MVP at RB. Defenses stack the box because we have the MVP at RB.
The point I was making that we are too predictable on offense. People are quick to put the blame on Ponder. When it is Musgrave who dials up these plays.

Re: Ponder vs. Cassell

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:31 pm
by VikingLord
Purple bruise wrote:Jennings Already A Big Fan Of Ponder. "I love him," Jennings said. "I love his personality, I love his demeanor on the field. The one thing we talk about, and I've shared with him more than anything, is the trust factor because he has everything he needs. The skill set, he has it. It's just about trusting the other guy."

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2013/6/21/ ... -of-ponder
I've heard Jennings say this a couple of times now, and the more he says it the more I'm reading it to mean Jennings is encouraging Ponder to throw it into tighter windows and give his receivers a chance to make plays. I think Ponder went through a phase last year where he was extremely risk-averse. Jennings wants Ponder to take more chances and hopefully Ponder is gaining the experience and trust in his own ability to read situations where he'll start doing that more, because I think pro QB's just don't get a lot of "safe" throws or obvious situations. For Ponder to succeed he's going to have to be willing to take more risk, and, of course, his receivers are sometimes going to have to bail him out of those riskier throws.

As Jennings notes - he just has to throw it and trust that his receiver is going to battle for that ball.