Vikings @ Bills Game Day Discussion Thread -- Preseaon #2

[mondry]

It's also incorrect.

Ponder threw 18 TDs and 12 INTs in 2012. The latter is actually better than the league average of 14.6.

10 wins 6 losses and a playoff spot.

[Mothman]

Considering what TexasVike and I were discussing a few posts earlier in this thread, I had to share this too as further indication that some sports writers simply aren't to be trusted when it comes to giving you an accurate picture of what happened in a game. They tell the story they want to tell. For example, Marc Sessler at NFL.com wrote the following in a brief piece titled Christian Ponder: Bills' 'exotic' defense confused Vikes:

On a night when EJ Manuel seized the Buffalo Bills' quarterback competition, the Minnesota Vikings' starting passer was less productive.

Christian Ponder acknowledged to reporters after the preseason game that the Bills' defense did an effective job disguising looks and coming at the Vikings with midseason-level trickery in a 20-16 Buffalo win.

"Just their whole defense was pretty exotic," Ponder said, per the Bills' official website. "They had some exotic personnel and different schemes, it was a little different and sometimes it was a little hard for us to identify. ... They're a very exotic defense, a very good defense. They had a lot of different looks."

Ponder was sacked on the game's opening play, fumbled two drives later and struggled to move the ball against the Bills.

When you throw that fumble in there, it sounds particularly bad, doesn't it? Of course, if you're having trouble remembering the fumble that's because it was the bad snap from Sullivan. Statistically, that gets credited to Ponder even though it wasn't his mistake. However, if the angle you're taking in your article is that Ponder struggled and you want to reinforce it, you just phrase it so it sounds like he lost the ball.

Of course, maybe that wasn't the writer's intent. Maybe he didn't even pay attention to what actually happened in the game and just checked the stat line. If so, that doesn't really make it better.

[The Breeze]

what about leaving las vegas? cage got his break because of his pedigree lets be honest. there are a ton of movies he is downright horrible in.

I completely agree. I saw leaving las vegas...but not Wild at Heart. IMO all of the times i've seen him since 'Raising Arizona' and Valley Girl his character has been pretty much the same, like he is just reading lines as himself rather than acting out a character. He played drunk in LLV but I feel he mails it in most of the time.

[Texas Vike]

Considering what TexasVike and I were discussing a few posts earlier in this thread, I had to share this too as further indication that some sports writers simply aren't to be trusted when it comes to giving you an accurate picture of what happened in a game. They tell the story they want to tell. For example, Marc Sessler at NFL.com wrote the following in a brief piece titled Christian Ponder: Bills' 'exotic' defense confused Vikes:
When you throw that fumble in there, it sounds particularly bad, doesn't it? Of course, if you're having trouble remembering the fumble that's because it was the bad snap from Sullivan. Statistically, that gets credited to Ponder even though it wasn't his mistake. However, if the angle you're taking in your article is that Ponder struggled and you want to reinforce it, you just phrase it so it sounds like he lost the ball.

Of course, maybe that wasn't the writer's intent. Maybe he didn't even pay attention to what actually happened in the game and just checked the stat line. If so, that doesn't really make it better.

Yes, his sin is either laziness or misrepresentation of the facts. I'm guessing he just read the stat line and pulled the rest out of his back side.

[Demi]

Of course, if you're having trouble remembering the fumble that's because it was the bad snap from Sullivan.

Yeah, asking Ponder to catch a snap that almost bounces off his face mask is too much at this point of his career. Needs another two years to make that type of play.

(did we ever get an explanation of whether it was an early snap, or Ponder bungled it? Who cares. Not ponders fault. Carry on.)

[Eli]

Yeah, asking Ponder to catch a snap that almost bounces off his face mask is too much at this point of his career. Needs another two years to make that type of play.

(did we ever get an explanation of whether it was an early snap, or Ponder bungled it? Who cares. Not ponders fault. Carry on.)

Yeah, it was an early snap. Nobody on the offensive line even moved. Ponder was looking toward the left into the secondary and the ball hit him in the right shoulder.

[Texas Vike]

Yeah, asking Ponder to catch a snap that almost bounces off his face mask is too much at this point of his career. Needs another two years to make that type of play.

(did we ever get an explanation of whether it was an early snap, or Ponder bungled it? Who cares. Not ponders fault. Carry on.)

Eli is right. The NFL network broadcast's commentators pointed this out too. I don't understand how two different centers f'd up in the same game (Joe Berger did the same thing to Cassel later).

I don't mean to make you eat crow, Demi, but you essentially did the same thing as the hypothetical "Ponder lover" from your post. You automatically assumed it was his fault because of your hatred for him.

[Mothman]

I just re-watched the game. And while Ponder was unspectacular, he wasn't exactly Spergon Wynn either as some are making it sound.

I thought he played fine under the circumstances (not great but fine). He was repeatedly put in bad positions or let down by his teammates (missed blocks, bad snap, well-thrown pass dropped on third down) and I think that's a much greater concern coming out of this game than his performance. Like the rest of the team, he has work to do but he led them on a 12 play, 62 yard scoring drive so he also provided something positive to build on going forward.

The entire offense, including Ponder, needs to execute better this week.

[Mothman]

ReFo: MIN @ BUF, Preseason Wk 2

Thanks for the link but this:

Vikings fans hoping this would be the year the light would turn on for quarterback Christian Ponder found no evidence for their faith on Friday night. After playing only two snaps last week, we got a longer look at the Vikings’ quarterback this week. Ponder took 26 snaps, dropped back to pass on 17 of those snaps and went 5-10 for 53 yards finishing with a grade of -0.4. The stats aren’t as telling as the fact that the Vikings were only able to produce three points in five offensive series with Ponder at the helm. It’s worrisome when a starting quarterback discloses that the opposing defense was “a little hard for us to identify” in a preseason game, but that is precisely what the Vikings’ starter stated after Friday’s defeat. It is only one game, but the results were disconcerting and we should be getting a good long look at Ponder next Sunday in San Francisco .

... just makes me want to do this: I wouldn't describe Ponder's performance as sharp but he wasn't even the primary reason the starting offense was ineffective in that game yet somehow he's the story.

Honestly, this speaks to what I was talking about yesterday: writers telling the story they want to tell. I just can't stand this "cult of the QB" mentality anymore! It's true that the Vikings starting offense was ineffective on 4 out of 5 drives last Friday but nowhere in that poorly focused "focus" article does Michael Renner even mention the lousy play around Ponder. 3 of the 5 drives were sabotaged or killed by miscues committed by players who don't play quarterback. Kalil gave up a quick sack on the first play of the game and put the offense behind the proverbial eightball. Rudolph dropped a well-thrown pass that would have resulted in a first down to end the second possession and Sullivan caused a 14 yard loss to begin the third drive. Ponder actually got them back into FG range on that possession and they had a chance to score but missed a 49 yard FG attempt. Are Kalil, Sullivan, Rudolph or even Walsh mentioned above? No, not in a positive OR negative sense. It's ALL about the quarterback. Why do NFL teams even suit up the rest of the players anymore?

Ponder left plenty of room for improvement in that performance and he needs to get better but for that to happen, he'll need the support of his teammates and he received too little of it last Friday. I'd love to know what OL coach Jeff Davidson had to say to his starters after that performance.

[Funkytown]

Thanks for the link but this:
... just makes me want to do this: I wouldn't describe Ponder's performance as sharp but he wasn't even the primary reason the starting offense was ineffective in that game yet somehow he's the story.

Honestly, this speaks to what I was talking about yesterday: writers telling the story they want to tell. I just can't stand this "cult of the QB" mentality anymore! It's true that the Vikings starting offense was ineffective on 4 out of 5 drives last Friday but nowhere in that poorly focused "focus" article does Michael Renner even mention the lousy play around Ponder. 3 of the 5 drives were sabotaged or killed by miscues committed by players who don't play quarterback. Kalil gave up a quick sack on the first play of the game and put the offense behind the proverbial eightball. Rudolph dropped a well-thrown pass that would have resulted in a first down to end the second possession and Sullivan caused a 14 yard loss to begin the third drive. Ponder actually got them back into FG range on that possession and they had a chance to score but missed a 49 yard FG attempt. Are Kalil, Sullivan, Rudolph or even Walsh mentioned above? No, not in a positive OR negative sense. It's ALL about the quarterback. Why do NFL teams even suit up the rest of the players anymore?

Ponder left plenty of room for improvement in that performance and he needs to get better but for that to happen, he'll need the support of his teammates and he received too little of it last Friday. I'd love to know what OL coach Jeff Davidson had to say to his starters after that performance.

All very valid points. However, you know how it is in the NFL. Quarterbacks sometimes get too much credit and too much blame. In Ponder's case though, he gets no credit and all the blame.

[The Breeze]

No more excuses Jim. Maybe it's time for you to enter a support group for homers.

I reccomend P.I.S.S. It's changed my life. Plus if I refer another person I get a free Ponder jersey and a chance to go on a hunting trip with Audie Cole, Percy Harvin and Brad Childress.....wouldn' that be swell?

[Mothman]

All very valid points. However, you know how it is in the NFL. Quarterbacks sometimes get too much credit and too much blame. In Ponder's case though, he gets no credit and all the blame.

It's the first part that makes me crazy. Ponder getting the blame is a by-product of the "it's all about the QB" mentality and that's what really bugs me.

[Funkytown]

It's the first part that makes me crazy. Ponder getting the blame is a by-product of the "it's all about the QB" mentality and that's what really bugs me.

I can't tell you how much I hear "quarterback-driven league" anymore (I'm sure we all hear it plenty!), so unfortunately it's not going to go away anytime soon. Honestly, I think you should prepare for it getting worse. Teams with elite (or borderline elite) quarterbacks have been winning all of the Super Bowls lately: E. Manning, P. Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben, Flacco (eh? elite playoff performance but not overall) and Brady before that. Until a 2000s Ravens type deal happens again, I think the argument is going to be, "You need an elite QB"--or at least a pretty darn good one. I lean more towards having a complete team with a few key players/leaders to hold it all together (kind of like last year's Ravens). With that said, it sure is nice to have a good QB leading the way. Hopefully we have that soon, so people shut their pie holes about Ponder. Hmm...now I want pie.

[Mothman]

It's the first part that makes me crazy. Ponder getting the blame is a by-product of the "it's all about the QB" mentality and that's what really bugs me.

I can't tell you how much I hear "quarterback-driven league" anymore (I'm sure we all hear it plenty!), so unfortunately it's not going to go away anytime soon. Honestly, I think you should prepare for it getting worse. Teams with elite (or borderline elite) quarterbacks have been winning all of the Super Bowls lately: E. Manning, P. Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben, Flacco (eh? elite playoff performance but not overall) and Brady before that. [/quote]

I think you're right that it will get worse although the majority of Super Bowl winners have had very good-to-great QBs so I don't necessarily think that's what's driving the trend. I wonder if if perhaps it's driven more by all the rules changes that have favored the passing game and by the media itself. They've reinforced the attitude for so long that a generation or more have grown up buying into it.

Until a 2000s Ravens type deal happens again, I think the argument is going to be, "You need an elite QB"--or at least a pretty darn good one. I lean more towards having a complete team with a few key players/leaders to hold it all together (kind of like last year's Ravens). With that said, it sure is nice to have a good QB leading the way. Hopefully we have that soon, so people shut their pie holes about Ponder. Hmm...now I want pie.

Forget about football! Let's talk pie. I could go for a big slice of strawberry-rhubarb pie right now.

Like you, I think building a complete team is the best route to the Super Bowl but I agree, it would be nice to have a good QB leading the way. I thought Culpepper was going to be that QB for us Vikes fans but it didn't work out and since then, it's been pretty ugly.

[Mothman]

Here's a much better perspective on the offense's performance against Buffalo:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/team-repor ... --nfl.html