Vikings Message Board.Com

Mothman wrote:
Diggs got off to a quick start and then his production tailed off too. Will he be benched by mid-season of 2016? Meanwhile, Wallace's production was awfully low but he was on the field all year. Maybe that's because they felt his production was due to other factors?

Sorry, it ALL frustrates me and I'm in a bad mood today. This passing offense needs an enema!

This is an interesting point, it seems like opponents figure things out when it comes to what our WR's are doing and then Norv has no answer for how to keep them productive. The only time we've seen change is when different personnel are brought in but then they're quickly "solved" and benched.

mondry wrote: This is an interesting point, it seems like opponents figure things out when it comes to what our WR's are doing and then Norv has no answer for how to keep them productive. The only time we've seen change is when different personnel are brought in but then they're quickly "solved" and benched.

I think the folly would be to assume it necessarily has much to do with production though obviously if Patterson was able to produce in his assigned WR role he'd be playing. The emphasis seems to be more on doing your job than just the ability to produce which makes sense in a low-risk offense. Of course both are optimal but they obviously prioritize technique over raw talent and their gameplan is set up as such. Did Diggs' production drop because he was starting to get double covered or because he having trouble doing fundamental things (getting off the line, accelerating when he needs to, running the right route option, etc)?

The coaching staff has flat out said Patterson isn't playing because his game isn't polished enough. Why are we assuming Patterson was benched because he "stopped producing?".

Mothman wrote: if we had any kind of straightforward answers from the team about this stuff, I might not even have a complaint. Unfortunately, we don't...

It doesn't seem to me that they've been evasive, but I suppose they haven't elaborated in great detail about his struggles. The reasons just don't seem complex as far as I can tell.

This is just my guess, but he has had some ball security issues. Whether fumbles, running incorrect or poor routes, or not positioning himself to make the catch. Given the emphasis on not committing turnovers, that might be enough for him to ride the bench.

The kid was raw coming out of college so them saying isn't ready isn't entirely surprising, even if it isn't what we want to hear.

Cliff wrote: I think the folly would be to assume it necessarily has much to do with production though obviously if Patterson was able to produce in his assigned WR role he'd be playing. The emphasis seems to be more on doing your job than just the ability to produce which makes sense in a low-risk offense. Of course both are optimal but they obviously prioritize technique over raw talent and their gameplan is set up as such. Did Diggs' production drop because he was starting to get double covered or because he having trouble doing fundamental things (getting off the line, accelerating when he needs to, running the right route option, etc)?

The coaching staff has flat out said Patterson isn't playing because his game isn't polished enough. Why are we assuming Patterson was benched because he "stopped producing?".

I didn't really make that post to talk about the production or why Patterson was benched. Actually I made that post to point out the concept that we've seen multiple times now a WR come in, overachieve in production, then fall off and get benched and it seems to me like Norv doesn't really adapt.

Let's say Diggs is being doubled now or the defense has at least adjusted for his threat level to give him more attention. That should open things up for someone else but we don't really see it. Let's also say they're doubling Diggs or giving him more attention AND selling out to stop AD, that seems reasonable to believe doesn't it? How does Norv adapt? So far we've seen him do pretty much the same thing, run AD as much as possible and hope for the best in the passing game.

I can't speak for Jim but imo that's the perfect time to get Patterson in the game and even if you have to "manufacture" touches for him he'll have so much space to work with given the attention to Diggs and Peterson. In fact Patterson has routinely had his best games WITH Peterson on the field and his big downfall started the year Peterson was suspended which goes hand in hand with teams adjusting their defense and giving him more attention because he was the major threat on the field without AD, his production dropping, and him being benched. If you don't think that's related then that's fine, but again my point is that Norv doesn't seem to know how to get his best play makers in a position to succeed once the defense adjusts for them.

If Patterson can't get it out wide at flanker move him to the slot, one of his big problems was getting jammed at the line and taken off his routes / timing so move him to the slot, bring him in motion, help him get a clean release. Instead he's been pigeon holed into one "role" and when the defense adjusted to his weaknesses (jamming him at the line) they gave up on him and basically said "you have to figure this out on your own and oh by the way you won't be getting any snaps on the field and you'll work with the 2nd team at best in practice" so how exactly was he suppose to learn and get better?

I'm not worried about Diggs but I do think Jim's point is valid, now that he's ineffective due to the defenses adjusting to him, what's next? How does Norv help his WR's out? So far the only time we've seen "improvement" is when one simply gets benched for another and the "surprise" factor only lasts for so long before it repeats. The bottom line is Norv is just too rigid and and boring. Teams sell out to stop AD and he pounds AD and he telegraphs its so hard by running on first down so much that by the time it comes to pass they can ignore AD and sell out to stop Diggs and Wallace.

From what I've seen I simply can't give Norv a pass that he's handling the Patterson situation the best way possible.

mondry wrote:I didn't really make that post to talk about the production or why Patterson was benched. Actually I made that post to point out the concept that we've seen multiple times now a WR come in, overachieve in production, then fall off and get benched and it seems to me like Norv doesn't really adapt.

Let's say Diggs is being doubled now or the defense has at least adjusted for his threat level to give him more attention. That should open things up for someone else but we don't really see it. Let's also say they're doubling Diggs or giving him more attention AND selling out to stop AD, that seems reasonable to believe doesn't it? How does Norv adapt? So far we've seen him do pretty much the same thing, run AD as much as possible and hope for the best in the passing game.

I can't speak for Jim but imo that's the perfect time to get Patterson in the game and even if you have to "manufacture" touches for him he'll have so much space to work with given the attention to Diggs and Peterson. In fact Patterson has routinely had his best games WITH Peterson on the field and his big downfall started the year Peterson was suspended which goes hand in hand with teams adjusting their defense and giving him more attention because he was the major threat on the field without AD, his production dropping, and him being benched. If you don't think that's related then that's fine, but again my point is that Norv doesn't seem to know how to get his best play makers in a position to succeed once the defense adjusts for them.

If Patterson can't get it out wide at flanker move him to the slot, one of his big problems was getting jammed at the line and taken off his routes / timing so move him to the slot, bring him in motion, help him get a clean release. Instead he's been pigeon holed into one "role" and when the defense adjusted to his weaknesses (jamming him at the line) they gave up on him and basically said "you have to figure this out on your own and oh by the way you won't be getting any snaps on the field and you'll work with the 2nd team at best in practice" so how exactly was he suppose to learn and get better?

I'm not worried about Diggs but I do think Jim's point is valid, now that he's ineffective due to the defenses adjusting to him, what's next? How does Norv help his WR's out? So far the only time we've seen "improvement" is when one simply gets benched for another and the "surprise" factor only lasts for so long before it repeats. The bottom line is Norv is just too rigid and and boring. Teams sell out to stop AD and he pounds AD and he telegraphs its so hard by running on first down so much that by the time it comes to pass they can ignore AD and sell out to stop Diggs and Wallace.

From what I've seen I simply can't give Norv a pass that he's handling the Patterson situation the best way possible.

Well said. Patterson isn't all alone in this. He's part of a pattern.

It's also too late to say Patterson can't catch the ball, or run any route, or make a big play, or score TDs. He's already done it. And I get tired of hearing how Patterson playing is "up to him." It's up to Norv and Zimmer. They need to do what they're getting paid to do and find a way to utilize a player with big playmaking skill. It's their job.

mondry wrote:I didn't really make that post to talk about the production or why Patterson was benched. Actually I made that post to point out the concept that we've seen multiple times now a WR come in, overachieve in production, then fall off and get benched and it seems to me like Norv doesn't really adapt.

Is it a pattern? I can only think of Charles Johnson as another receiver fitting that description and he lost his spot to injury and then Diggs.

Let's say Diggs is being doubled now or the defense has at least adjusted for his threat level to give him more attention. That should open things up for someone else but we don't really see it. Let's also say they're doubling Diggs or giving him more attention AND selling out to stop AD, that seems reasonable to believe doesn't it? How does Norv adapt? So far we've seen him do pretty much the same thing, run AD as much as possible and hope for the best in the passing game.

We don't see it because that "someone else" that could be open generally isn't a receiver, they're extra weight trying to hold the offensive line together. This is a team that's passing game was terrible for various reasons (QB play, WR play, Oline play, etc). Does it really make sense to try to open up the passing game under those conditions? I don't know how you do anything but hope for the best in the passing game with that offensive roster.

Seems to me that they made the decision to be conservative since they couldn't be productive. The style of football they played barely even allowed for a 3rd WR to be on the field at all. That means Wallace as the vet high profile FA we picked up and the next best ... who was Charles Johnson until Diggs came up.

I can't speak for Jim but imo that's the perfect time to get Patterson in the game and even if you have to "manufacture" touches for him he'll have so much space to work with given the attention to Diggs and Peterson. In fact Patterson has routinely had his best games WITH Peterson on the field and his big downfall started the year Peterson was suspended which goes hand in hand with teams adjusting their defense and giving him more attention because he was the major threat on the field without AD, his production dropping, and him being benched. If you don't think that's related then that's fine, but again my point is that Norv doesn't seem to know how to get his best play makers in a position to succeed once the defense adjusts for them.

That's all well and good if you're willing to start Patterson at WR or bring him in with some kind of regularity. Otherwise, if you randomly bring him in to "manufacture plays" I don't think that's very effective.

If Patterson can't get it out wide at flanker move him to the slot, one of his big problems was getting jammed at the line and taken off his routes / timing so move him to the slot, bring him in motion, help him get a clean release. Instead he's been pigeon holed into one "role" and when the defense adjusted to his weaknesses (jamming him at the line) they gave up on him and basically said "you have to figure this out on your own and oh by the way you won't be getting any snaps on the field and you'll work with the 2nd team at best in practice" so how exactly was he suppose to learn and get better?

Why does it make sense to take a person who doesn't completely understand his current role and place him into a role he's completely unfamiliar with? I don't see how moving him to the slot is a solution.

Do you really think they said "Ok, figure this out on your own"? I think they decided he was too raw and had been in 3 different offenses in 3 different years. Rather than just relying on his talent they felt it best for him to actually take time and learn the role. They also probably thought him being out of place (even occasionally) would produce turnovers that an offense as anemic as the Viking's can't afford.

Not to mention this is a guy who moved up from a junior college and immediately had success. They he was drafted in the 1st round and immediately started having some success. It's possible he thought that was enough and rested on his laurels as far as learning went.

What role was he pigeon holed into? He's still playing WR, right? Him working with the 2nd team is helpful in the same way it's helpful to all the other 2nd teamers ...

I'm not worried about Diggs but I do think Jim's point is valid, now that he's ineffective due to the defenses adjusting to him, what's next? How does Norv help his WR's out? So far the only time we've seen "improvement" is when one simply gets benched for another and the "surprise" factor only lasts for so long before it repeats. The bottom line is Norv is just too rigid and and boring. Teams sell out to stop AD and he pounds AD and he telegraphs its so hard by running on first down so much that by the time it comes to pass they can ignore AD and sell out to stop Diggs and Wallace.

Everybody knows Turner's offense can be quite exciting to watch. However, "ball security" offense is boring by necessity and it also requires a lot of running ... even more so when you have the best running back in football. That's the style of football the Vikings played this year. Personally I'm hoping it was a choice forced by limited options rather than it being ongoing ... but then again they won the NFC North using it and the Super Bowl winning team basically did the same thing.

From what I've seen I simply can't give Norv a pass that he's handling the Patterson situation the best way possible.

I don't know if he's handling it the best way possible either. I just don't think it's as simple as the coaching staff just being unimaginative and/or stubborn.

Patterson is a player who (by his own admission) didn't work as hard as he should have his rookie year. He was already behind the curve coming out of college and he didn't do himself any favors.

I see Patterson as a player who didn't work hard enough up front and can't properly function in his role as a WR. I'm glad he's doing his best and working hard and I'm hopeful the team will be able to use his talent. I just don't see it as a failure by the coaches if a player can't play in the role he was drafted for and as a result they don't have the space to put him on the field in a "special" capacity.

One thing I have a hard time understanding is Patterson had 45 catches under Musgrave. And he was explosive!
Now under Turner non existing.
Same thing pretty much goes for CJ he had 31 catches and then last year was a 4th reciever.
I think we got a solid core of recievers but you have to get the ball to them.

I think we got a solid core of recievers but you have to get the ball to them.

I think we got a solid core of receivers...on paper. But on the field it's entirely different. CJ got beat out because Diggs is a more polished all around receiver. Same goes for Wallace (even if he is one dimensional). I think the reason CJ and Patterson had catches, and then didn't had more to do with how average they are. Look at Diggs production. Look at all their production. I think that's about the level of player they all are. We have a handful of average receivers. Look at where they came from. Wallace traded for a fifth. Diggs drafted in mid rounds. CJ grabbed off Browns depth chart. These form a "solid core"? Maybe solid depth. But not one of these guys seems like they should be an every down NFL starting receiver...

We never hear much about George Stewart the wide recievers coach. Is he getting the most out of the wide recievers?

halfgiz wrote:We never hear much about George Stewart the wide recievers coach. Is he getting the most out of the wide recievers?

That's one of those questions that's really impossible to quantify and, therefore, answer. Especially from an outside, fan perspective.

halfgiz wrote:We never hear much about George Stewart the wide recievers coach. Is he getting the most out of the wide recievers?

As Dead_Poet wrote, it's an impossible question to answer, at least definitively. Stewart's been with the Vikings under 3 different head coaches now and he's heading into his 10th season with the team. He's clearly a respected coach. However, when looking at the Vikings WRs over the last 9 years, and how many have developed significantly during their time with the team, it's hard not to wonder if change is needed at that position.

To me Diggs just has unnatural body control and ability ....

I think Johnson had success because teams weren't looking for him as a weapon.
Once teams had tape on Johnson they saw what was needed to prevent him from
catching the ball.

From the outside looking in our receivers coach does not seem to get much out of our
wide outs. I am not sure if its fair to put all the blame on the coach or not. One thing is
for sure we don't seem to be able to get a talented group, especially when drafting in
first round.

jackal wrote:To me Diggs just has unnatural body control and ability ....

I think Johnson had success because teams weren't looking for him as a weapon.
Once teams had tape on Johnson they saw what was needed to prevent him from
catching the ball.

From the outside looking in our receivers coach does not seem to get much out of our
wide outs. I am not sure if its fair to put all the blame on the coach or not. One thing is
for sure we don't seem to be able to get a talented group, especially when drafting in
first round.

I think there does need to be a small asterisk there with respect to Harvin (and extend to Rice as well). Both had productive seasons but whether it was attitude or injury they never made it to a second contract with the team, however the talent was there and they proved it on the field (when they were on it). The extenuating circumstances surrounding those selections really did hurt, though, in both the short and long term. Both were more than capable of putting up 80+ catch, 900-yard receiving seasons.

i'm going to go out on a limb here, but i would venture to say i think the problem is just a tad bit more on the qb than the freaking wide receiver coach. are you serious with this discussion? i mean should the wide receiver's coach run the routes, catch the ball, and get across the goal line too? all i know is this, patterson played better with cassel and he can't produce anything if he isn't on the field. the truth is aside from peterson, our offense is a total mess from the top down and adding a few linemen isn't going do much of anything. it starts with turner and bridgewater both, and if the production isn't there this year both need to go. bridgewater couldn't throw for a single td in two full games against seattle, and yet many viking fans were mad at walsh. you have to be kidding me.