Vikings @ Lions

[VikingLord]

I just hope it's an entertaining game for at least a quarter. It would be a small miracle if we have less than 3 penalties in the first three minutes. And I hope beyond hope it will look like we are prepared to play from the opening whistle.

You bring up something that I've been noticing but couldn't pin down, and that is the team chemistry this season. It just seems to be a bit off. There are individual players who seem to give great effort, but then there are others who almost seem like they're just going through the motions, and unfortunately the number of players in that latter group seems to far outweigh the number in the former. I mean, look at Ivan Pace as a perfect example of that. Last year he was blowing up plays and going sideline-to-sideline. This year he's been effectively benched due to sloppy tackling, taking bad angles, and generally being ineffective. Even Greenard seems to be giving half efforts a lot and he was the guy who supposedly was promoting the idea that it would take more this year. The offensive line played pretty well against the Browns when the backups were in, but put the starters out there and there is constant pressure and nowhere to run.

I'm not sure if what I'm perceiving is actually happening or maybe I'm just seeing something that isn't there, but last year's team seemed to show up every game and fight even if they did end up getting waxed at the end. I'm wondering if something carried over into this season as a result of that late season collapse last year? Or maybe something else is going on? Maybe players are starting to question aspects of how KOC is running things? Could alllowing Sam Darnold to leave and then appointing McCarthy as the starter without making him earn it be causing some tension behind the scenes? We really don't know how the players feel about that. The seem to generally support McCarthy but it's not clear they support how the Vikings organization handled that starting QB situation.

I thought I saw an article that discussed this too, that word is there is a lot of dissent within the locker room about various aspects of where the team is right now and reasons for how it got there. It could be the result of some poor performances, but if those reports are accurate, it could also be the reason for them, at least in part. If winning is the cure all to these sorts of issues, it might be a lost season as I don't see another potential win on the schedule for another month at this point.

[MichaelRay82]

I just hope it's an entertaining game for at least a quarter. It would be a small miracle if we have less than 3 penalties in the first three minutes. And I hope beyond hope it will look like we are prepared to play from the opening whistle.

You bring up something that I've been noticing but couldn't pin down, and that is the team chemistry this season. It just seems to be a bit off. There are individual players who seem to give great effort, but then there are others who almost seem like they're just going through the motions, and unfortunately the number of players in that latter group seems to far outweigh the number in the former. I mean, look at Ivan Pace as a perfect example of that. Last year he was blowing up plays and going sideline-to-sideline. This year he's been effectively benched due to sloppy tackling, taking bad angles, and generally being ineffective. Even Greenard seems to be giving half efforts a lot and he was the guy who supposedly was promoting the idea that it would take more this year. The offensive line played pretty well against the Browns when the backups were in, but put the starters out there and there is constant pressure and nowhere to run.

I'm not sure if what I'm perceiving is actually happening or maybe I'm just seeing something that isn't there, but last year's team seemed to show up every game and fight even if they did end up getting waxed at the end. I'm wondering if something carried over into this season as a result of that late season collapse last year? Or maybe something else is going on? Maybe players are starting to question aspects of how KOC is running things? Could alllowing Sam Darnold to leave and then appointing McCarthy as the starter without making him earn it be causing some tension behind the scenes? We really don't know how the players feel about that. The seem to generally support McCarthy but it's not clear they support how the Vikings organization handled that starting QB situation.

I thought I saw an article that discussed this too, that word is there is a lot of dissent within the locker room about various aspects of where the team is right now and reasons for how it got there. It could be the result of some poor performances, but if those reports are accurate, it could also be the reason for them, at least in part. If winning is the cure all to these sorts of issues, it might be a lost season as I don't see another potential win on the schedule for another month at this point.

I'm sure that the reason for the tension was letting Sam go - was loved in the locker room.. I bet if you took a secret vote 100% of the players would have voted to keep Sam. Why wouldn't they??? You can fool the fans, you can fool the local media, but the people you cannot fool are the other players they know who can play and who cannot play I suspect they do not think much of JJ McCarthy and thought an awful lot of Sam.

[CharVike]

Never would have thought that. All 3 phases get credit. The front on both sides came to play ball.

[psjordan]

If the barometer of an entertaining game is a graph of my blood pressure, well, that was a very entertaining game.

[ERIK the PURPLE]

That game took 6 months off my life. Basically stood or paced the whole 2nd half. My JoBoo doll gets to keep his rum.

[VikingsFan12345]

I knew it would be a close game but I did not expect a win but that is a very pleasant surprise! The Packers losing is a nice bonus! I am so glad the Vikings losing streak against the Lions is over! McCarthy just knows how to win in Michigan! Haha! Great win on the road!

[Bowhunting Viking]

I knew it would be a close game but I did not expect a win but that is a very pleasant surprise! The Packers losing is a nice bonus! I am so glad the Vikings losing streak against the Lions is over! McCarthy just knows how to win in Michigan! Haha! Great win on the road!

As a born, bred and still living here Buckeye I find that last part highly offensive
I've been asked many times how I feel about my Vikes drafting a Michigan QB? I always said I wouldn't care if we had drafted Saddam Huissein if he could finally win us a SB before I die!

[psjordan]

Kudos:
McCarthy played about as well as a QB with two prior games under his belt could have played. No flashy stats, but accounted for three TD's and threw a clutch pass on third down to seal the game. He was confident enough to change the play several times at the LOS, and only looked rattled once or twice. Again, not flashy but I give him high grades when you add in the expectations, and the fact if he struggled or got hurt again we'd be in big trouble.

The OL played together for all 64 offensive snaps in the game!!! That was awesome just in and of itself. DET has a tough D and our guys get high grades from me even with a few whiffs. I know the sack count was 5? or something but that's with a green as can be QB. If this group can stay healthy - even with Brandel out there - it will help McCarthy immensely.

Aaron Jones - I was worried after last game, he did not seem to have the burst or attitude he normally has. But in this game he came out with both, just sorry to see him get hurt again. Hopefully it's a short term thing but I never like to hear "shoulder" for an RB.

I thought this was a better job of playcalling than in games past. I know folks will complain about the goal line calls, see my comments below.

Myles Price. So glad we found someone who can really cause the other team to worry on our returns. That 61 yarder to open things up was a godsend for McCarthy. And while on the kicking game, it's so nice to not have to worry too much about our kickers.

Blake Cashman. Man this guy can just flat out play. He plays SO smart. Really hope he stays healthy.

DL and Edge - They did a great job getting pressure. I did not realize Goff goes down so easily when he gets hit - I guess I'm used to seeing QB's put up more of a fight when trapped, but he seemed to go down with arm contact. Fine by me, and the pressure was there all game.

Disappointments:
Dallas Turner, again. Played 14 of 64 snaps on D. I hate to say our D plays better without him (I mean AVG is pretty good), but still I would expect at least flashes of brilliance from this kid. I don't see much at all with him. Could go down as a colossal bust if he doesn't improve this season.

I know folks will complain about not running the ball three times inside the 2-yd line, but I liked the call to pass to Jefferson. Did not like the route he ran. He's better than that and should have been open in 1-on-1 coverage. At his price, that route on the goal line should be a lock.

Didn't like seeing our DB's get burned in coverage at crunch time end of game. Still seeing a lot of confusion out there if we don't get decent pressure on QB.

[Cliff]

Kudos:
McCarthy played about as well as a QB with two prior games under his belt could have played. No flashy stats, but accounted for three TD's and threw a clutch pass on third down to seal the game. He was confident enough to change the play several times at the LOS, and only looked rattled once or twice. Again, not flashy but I give him high grades when you add in the expectations, and the fact if he struggled or got hurt again we'd be in big trouble.

The OL played together for all 64 offensive snaps in the game!!! That was awesome just in and of itself. DET has a tough D and our guys get high grades from me even with a few whiffs. I know the sack count was 5? or something but that's with a green as can be QB. If this group can stay healthy - even with Brandel out there - it will help McCarthy immensely.

Aaron Jones - I was worried after last game, he did not seem to have the burst or attitude he normally has. But in this game he came out with both, just sorry to see him get hurt again. Hopefully it's a short term thing but I never like to hear "shoulder" for an RB.

I thought this was a better job of playcalling than in games past. I know folks will complain about the goal line calls, see my comments below.

Myles Price. So glad we found someone who can really cause the other team to worry on our returns. That 61 yarder to open things up was a godsend for McCarthy. And while on the kicking game, it's so nice to not have to worry too much about our kickers.

Blake Cashman. Man this guy can just flat out play. He plays SO smart. Really hope he stays healthy.

DL and Edge - They did a great job getting pressure. I did not realize Goff goes down so easily when he gets hit - I guess I'm used to seeing QB's put up more of a fight when trapped, but he seemed to go down with arm contact. Fine by me, and the pressure was there all game.

Disappointments:
Dallas Turner, again. Played 14 of 64 snaps on D. I hate to say our D plays better without him (I mean AVG is pretty good), but still I would expect at least flashes of brilliance from this kid. I don't see much at all with him. Could go down as a colossal bust if he doesn't improve this season.

I know folks will complain about not running the ball three times inside the 2-yd line, but I liked the call to pass to Jefferson. Did not like the route he ran. He's better than that and should have been open in 1-on-1 coverage. At his price, that route on the goal line should be a lock.

Didn't like seeing our DB's get burned in coverage at crunch time end of game. Still seeing a lot of confusion out there if we don't get decent pressure on QB.

I'm with you on JJM. It was exciting to see him progress from the first two games. Of course it helps that the offensive line played well and we had an actual running game like you pointed out. I would really like to see the Vikings draft a RB in a high round next year. Jones looked good but he's entering the end of his career and continues to have issues staying healthy. Mason isn't terrible but he is backup quality in my opinion. A good compliment to a true feature back.

I'm not all that sure about the play calling. When your offensive line isn't protecting the quarterback well or opening holes for the running game the play calling stalls and can't get into the rhythm. Is his play calling better or were his plays just finally executed properly?

Special teams played really well, I agree. Its nice to have a decent return game and kicker. The punter can be hot and cold but kicking from your own endzone can be a challenge.

I agree the pressure was great but I hate that it absolutely has to be for the defense to function. I know that every defense needs to generate pressure on the quarterback but it is gravely important in this defense. If the QB can be comfortable for 3.5 seconds or more somebody is getting open. Coverage is super weak. Everyone thought we were too thin at DB going into the season and everyone was right. Seemed like the DTs finally made an impact.

Agreed on Dallas Turner, he has been a massive disappointment for sure. I was very hopeful for him and still have some hope. Maybe year three will be better. I think the reason AVG is so much better has to do more with communication than raw ability. I saw him making changes and helping to get people in proper formations. Turner doesn't have that. I get the feeling that he really needs to be played more like a DE in a 4-3 defense. Primary job rushing the QB. I think the complexities of the defense are too much for him. Moving around the field and understanding different coverages. At least right now. His processing time is causing him to play slower than he actually is.

[CharVike]

Eric Wilson had a big game. Hargrave also played good after not doing too much all season. The Lions had no ground game. LDR played good and I think he blocked the FG attempt.
I'll give Brandel credit. Brady pinned the bad snap more on JJM indicated you need to be ready for a fast snap when the C has to move which he did on that play. Playing C is a tough spot.
Williams smoked Rodgers but that was a long way down along with a push off and no help over top. Looked like the same route as the previous week. More of a pass rush would help.
Theo Jackson doesn't do much so far. Certainly not in Bynum's league. Thomas had back to back penalties on ST. The hold and the running OB for about 10 yards. Felton had a hold also. That needs to be cleaned.
They did a good job of taking Laporta out of the action. That first drive he was running free and showed power at the goal line.
JJM looked to be in control which is great to see for only 3rd start. He seemed to recognize what they were doing. He sailed a few passes but I think they came off movement. The interception was a 50/50 deal and we lost.
I'll give the most credit to the OL and that was without Oliver and Kelly. They gave Jones room which he took advantage of and provided decent pass protection against a very good front. Hutchinson is very good. Campbell is another player who is good. The Lions have a very good front 7. This wasn't some joke to block. Mason isn't the best blocking back.
Pro Football Focus credited the Vikings with 24 pressures in the game to go along with 5.0 sacks, 11 quarterback hits and 10 tackles for loss. I know Greenard wiffed on a sack when Goff bent down willing to take it. 10 TFL is an incredible number against that OL.

[makila]

We had plans that made it where I saw almost none of it, and could not listen on the radio either.

So my only hot take insight.... jjm is 2-0 against the nfc north. Just saying.

[CharVike]

Kudos:
McCarthy played about as well as a QB with two prior games under his belt could have played. No flashy stats, but accounted for three TD's and threw a clutch pass on third down to seal the game. He was confident enough to change the play several times at the LOS, and only looked rattled once or twice. Again, not flashy but I give him high grades when you add in the expectations, and the fact if he struggled or got hurt again we'd be in big trouble.

The OL played together for all 64 offensive snaps in the game!!! That was awesome just in and of itself. DET has a tough D and our guys get high grades from me even with a few whiffs. I know the sack count was 5? or something but that's with a green as can be QB. If this group can stay healthy - even with Brandel out there - it will help McCarthy immensely.

Aaron Jones - I was worried after last game, he did not seem to have the burst or attitude he normally has. But in this game he came out with both, just sorry to see him get hurt again. Hopefully it's a short term thing but I never like to hear "shoulder" for an RB.

I thought this was a better job of playcalling than in games past. I know folks will complain about the goal line calls, see my comments below.

Myles Price. So glad we found someone who can really cause the other team to worry on our returns. That 61 yarder to open things up was a godsend for McCarthy. And while on the kicking game, it's so nice to not have to worry too much about our kickers.

Blake Cashman. Man this guy can just flat out play. He plays SO smart. Really hope he stays healthy.

DL and Edge - They did a great job getting pressure. I did not realize Goff goes down so easily when he gets hit - I guess I'm used to seeing QB's put up more of a fight when trapped, but he seemed to go down with arm contact. Fine by me, and the pressure was there all game.

Disappointments:
Dallas Turner, again. Played 14 of 64 snaps on D. I hate to say our D plays better without him (I mean AVG is pretty good), but still I would expect at least flashes of brilliance from this kid. I don't see much at all with him. Could go down as a colossal bust if he doesn't improve this season.

I know folks will complain about not running the ball three times inside the 2-yd line, but I liked the call to pass to Jefferson. Did not like the route he ran. He's better than that and should have been open in 1-on-1 coverage. At his price, that route on the goal line should be a lock.

Didn't like seeing our DB's get burned in coverage at crunch time end of game. Still seeing a lot of confusion out there if we don't get decent pressure on QB.

I'm with you on JJM. It was exciting to see him progress from the first two games. Of course it helps that the offensive line played well and we had an actual running game like you pointed out. I would really like to see the Vikings draft a RB in a high round next year. Jones looked good but he's entering the end of his career and continues to have issues staying healthy. Mason isn't terrible but he is backup quality in my opinion. A good compliment to a true feature back.

I'm not all that sure about the play calling. When your offensive line isn't protecting the quarterback well or opening holes for the running game the play calling stalls and can't get into the rhythm. Is his play calling better or were his plays just finally executed properly?

Special teams played really well, I agree. Its nice to have a decent return game and kicker. The punter can be hot and cold but kicking from your own endzone can be a challenge.

I agree the pressure was great but I hate that it absolutely has to be for the defense to function. I know that every defense needs to generate pressure on the quarterback but it is gravely important in this defense. If the QB can be comfortable for 3.5 seconds or more somebody is getting open. Coverage is super weak. Everyone thought we were too thin at DB going into the season and everyone was right. Seemed like the DTs finally made an impact.

Agreed on Dallas Turner, he has been a massive disappointment for sure. I was very hopeful for him and still have some hope. Maybe year three will be better. I think the reason AVG is so much better has to do more with communication than raw ability. I saw him making changes and helping to get people in proper formations. Turner doesn't have that. I get the feeling that he really needs to be played more like a DE in a 4-3 defense. Primary job rushing the QB. I think the complexities of the defense are too much for him. Moving around the field and understanding different coverages. At least right now. His processing time is causing him to play slower than he actually is.

I think you are right with the communication. The fastest I have seen Turner was when he lined up on the wrong side and had to flip over to get in his spot. Perhaps they should try and make it more simple for him at this point. Put the hand down and go.

[VikingLord]

I thought McCarthy played much better overall. As someone noted there were still some accuracy issues, one of which led to the poor ball placement that resulted in the interception (debatable as that call ultimately was), but in general McCarthy made some nice throws and handled pressure pretty well. He also got better blocking up front and a more consistent run game to help take the pressure off. That final throw to Nailor was money. Tough place to play, tough defense to play and I and others were tough on him coming into this game. He showed resolve and fight and I'll give him the kudos he deserves.

The 2025 Vikings defense... They can show up and show out and do some great things at times, but then they give up a 40 yard TD on a 4th-and-4 to an opposing tight end, commit an offsides on a 4th-and-5 on a hard snap count, and give up another long scoring play late on a 3rd-and-1. The talent is clearly there for the defense to be very good, but for whatever reason they just can't find that consistency they would need if this team does somehow claw its way into the playoffs. Maybe it will come? I mean, they just figured out a way to hold the Detroit Lion run offense to well under 100 yards. That is no small feat. I thought when they executed well they were in control of one of the best offenses in football.

Special teams was good too. A key blocked field goal at the time they desperately needed a play like that? Heck yeah! Miles Price is a real threat in the return game. Just need to clean up the penalties.

Overall, I was shocked the Vikings played as well as they did after what we'd watched the last two games. They really responded and that is a good sign because it doesn't get any easier from here on out. If I had to pick one game on the schedule this year I was sure would be a loss it would have been this last game against the Lions. Now let's see if they can handle the Ravens with Lamar Jackson.

[CharVike]

One play that really jumped out for me was the TD pass to Hock. JJM was moving right and fired a bullet across which is a throw that not many can make. Brady also talked about the 3 types of throws. Throw 1, a fastball, JJM has now but the other 2 which requires some loft are still a work in progress but he made most of them in this game which was pointed out. Those deeper out patterns are a hard throw to make. You need to throw it hard and let the WR come back some. Just see how week to week goes at this point.

[VikingLord]

Just focusing on McCarthy's stat line it wasn't noteworthy. He finished 14/25 (56%) for 143 yards passing at a 5.7 YPA. He took 5 sacks and had a QBR of 54.5 (compared to Goff with a 44.4) and an overall rating of 82.6 (compared to Goff with a 108.4). Two passing TDs against an arguable interception along with one rushing TD.

McCarthy's stats track almost exactly with those of his first game against the Bears. In that game he was 13/20 (65%) for 143 yards passing at a 7.2 YPA. He took 3 sacks in that game, had a QBR of 50.4 and an overall rating of 98.5. He also had two passing TDs, a single interception (no question about that one as it was returned for a defensive score) and one rushing TD.

One would think McCarthy's outlier game would be the game against the Falcons, but he wasn't all that different in that one either save the result was much different. In that game he finished 11/21 (52%) for 158 yards passing at 7.5 YPA. He took 6 sacks in that game with a QBR of 6.8 and an overall rating of 37.5. The ratings were worse because he threw no TDs, rushed for no scores, and threw 2 picks.

If I had to pick out a difference between the two games McCarthy came out the winner, I'd say the biggest is that while his overall performance against the Lions largely tracked his overall performance against the Bears, he was more consistent throughout the game against the Lions than he was the game against the Bears. Against the Bears he did very little until a burst in the 4th when he did all his scoring, while against the Lions he put in a much more consistent overall performance.

Things I will be looking for from him going forward:

- Continue to improve his accuracy. He made some very nice throws against the Lions and generally seemed pretty accurate, but he had some pretty bad misses as well (sailing one throw over a wide open Jefferson, the throw behind Nailor that was ruled an INT). McCarthy throws a nice ball with plenty of velocity, but he needs to work on making sure it gets to where it can be caught only by his guy and where his guy has a chance to maximize yards after the catch.

- Develop a deep ball threat. McCarthy seems like he has plenty of arm strength to get it down the field, but he's not generally throwing it there, or if he is he's been overthrowing it. Being able to create a credible deep threat is key to making sure defensive coordinators don't bring one or both safeties down into the box where they can help stuff the run and bring extra pressure.

- Develop more pocket presence. There were times when McCarthy escaped pressure and kept himself alive as a passer, and times when he escaped pressure and tucked the ball with the intent to run. This will come with time and experience. Most rookie QBs struggle with that aspect of the position so I expect this will improve. If it improves quickly it will help McCarthy's total passing yards start to increase as some of those plays where the protection breaks down can result in big gains if the coverage also breaks down (ala what Jalen Hurts did against the Vikings secondary). Hopefully McCarthy can take a page or two out of that book.