Vikings @ Chargers

[CharVike]

McCarthy got very lucky, can you imagine McCarthy tearing his acl because of it?

Maybe he did. It's still early and he did play through this latest injury after getting tapped and I believe the same thing happened last year.

[TremorVike]

Agree with what's been posted thus far...been a long time fan that spends way to much money and energy on this franchise. I could not believe KOC left Wentz out there to continue to fall on his face. It showed a lot about his personality and his stubbornness to the degree of negatively affecting everyone on that field. They almost to a man gave up purely out of frustration it seemed, it sucks that we all know our season is over in week 8. All we need is a spark of some sort out of the McCarthy, I don't expect it to be a close game at all but if our season is over and we don't have anything viable in our young QB... that's a double kick to the nuts.

Last night almost completely pushed me off the KOC bandwagon, KAM cant be run out of town quick enough in my opinion. His overall performance as GM has almost been a complete failure on every level. Things can change quick in the NFL but as a fan it looks very bleak as we sit here today, which is frustrating. Watching the Lions trot in B, C, and D stringers last week and they make plays tells a big story of where our two franchises are currently.

[CharVike]

Agree with what's been posted thus far...been a long time fan that spends way to much money and energy on this franchise. I could not believe KOC left Wentz out there to continue to fall on his face. It showed a lot about his personality and his stubbornness to the degree of negatively affecting everyone on that field. They almost to a man gave up purely out of frustration it seemed, it sucks that we all know our season is over in week 8. All we need is a spark of some sort out of the McCarthy, I don't expect it to be a close game at all but if our season is over and we don't have anything viable in our young QB... that's a double kick to the nuts.

Last night almost completely pushed me off the KOC bandwagon, KAM cant be run out of town quick enough in my opinion. His overall performance as GM has almost been a complete failure on every level. Things can change quick in the NFL but as a fan it looks very bleak as we sit here today, which is frustrating. Watching the Lions trot in B, C, and D stringers last week and they make plays tells a big story of where our two franchises are currently.

I thought by year 4 if we weren't a serious contender say bye bye. Now we're stuck in worst shape than when they took over. Scoring a TD is now the hardest thing to do. At least last year we could score. Why break that up. KAM and the loser Grigson need to be thrown out of town once this season is over. Put Brez in charge. Do it now is better.

[Cliff]

Agree with what's been posted thus far...been a long time fan that spends way to much money and energy on this franchise. I could not believe KOC left Wentz out there to continue to fall on his face. It showed a lot about his personality and his stubbornness to the degree of negatively affecting everyone on that field. They almost to a man gave up purely out of frustration it seemed, it sucks that we all know our season is over in week 8. All we need is a spark of some sort out of the McCarthy, I don't expect it to be a close game at all but if our season is over and we don't have anything viable in our young QB... that's a double kick to the nuts.

Last night almost completely pushed me off the KOC bandwagon, KAM cant be run out of town quick enough in my opinion. His overall performance as GM has almost been a complete failure on every level. Things can change quick in the NFL but as a fan it looks very bleak as we sit here today, which is frustrating. Watching the Lions trot in B, C, and D stringers last week and they make plays tells a big story of where our two franchises are currently.

I thought by year 4 if we weren't a serious contender say bye bye. Now we're stuck in worst shape than when they took over. Scoring a TD is now the hardest thing to do. At least last year we could score. Why break that up.

I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until JJM has a legitimate chance and is running the offense. Maybe he's injury prone and that will be his story but I'd like to see what the offense being run by their actual starting QB is capable of. They let Darnold and Jones walk to start McCarthy, not Wentz.

In *theory* they're not necessarily doing the wrong thing at the QB position. Their starter is a 1st round "QB of the future" guy, 2nd string is a vet with some success who would be ok coming in for a handful of games but isn't meant to put the season on, 3rd string is a young guy with potential but isn't necessarily ready yet. Unfortunately their 1st string has been injured, their 2nd string has been playing injured and they are apparently trying to keep their 3rd string off the field as much as possible.

The defense has been hot and cold. They were top 3 in points against them up until the Eagles game. They've really fallen apart these last two weeks. The lack of CB depth especially has been exposed. Harrison Smith is a great guy and would be good as a backup but he's not a starter anymore. They're not getting the production out of the free agent signings that they hoped. They bet on getting pressure on the QB to help the secondary and when that doesn't happen it gets ugly very quickly.

The defense is going after the ball and trying to force fumbles which is great, but they're starting to do it at the expense of stopping runners. They really need to shift focus a bit on actually making tackles.

[makila]

Yeah I think they definitely need to start jjm going forward and see what happens. Have been of that opinion all season.

If he is, or isnt, the guy, then it provides a direction.

[CharVike]

I thought by year 4 if we weren't a serious contender say bye bye. Now we're stuck in worst shape than when they took over. Scoring a TD is now the hardest thing to do. At least last year we could score. Why break that up.

I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until JJM has a legitimate chance and is running the offense. Maybe he's injury prone and that will be his story but I'd like to see what the offense being run by their actual starting QB is capable of. They let Darnold and Jones walk to start McCarthy, not Wentz.

In *theory* they're not necessarily doing the wrong thing at the QB position. Their starter is a 1st round "QB of the future" guy, 2nd string is a vet with some success who would be ok coming in for a handful of games but isn't meant to put the season on, 3rd string is a young guy with potential but isn't necessarily ready yet. Unfortunately their 1st string has been injured, their 2nd string has been playing injured and they are apparently trying to keep their 3rd string off the field as much as possible.

The defense has been hot and cold. They were top 3 in points against them up until the Eagles game. They've really fallen apart these last two weeks. The lack of CB depth especially has been exposed. Harrison Smith is a great guy and would be good as a backup but he's not a starter anymore. They're not getting the production out of the free agent signings that they hoped. They bet on getting pressure on the QB to help the secondary and when that doesn't happen it gets ugly very quickly.

The defense is going after the ball and trying to force fumbles which is great, but they're starting to do it at the expense of stopping runners. They really need to shift focus a bit on actually making tackles.

Our D will play based on who we play. The Burrrow Less Bengals, Browns and whatever else aren't exactly fine tuned machines. They dared Hurts to beat them and he did easily. We just faced a team that lost their top RBs and their OL is banged up and we let them pound the ball. Yes KOC emptied the QB cupboard for a 1st rounder which in theory does sound like the right thing to do. Even Wentz for a few games is ok. But we didn't have a bum starting for us last year and that's the big difference. It wasn't throwing Case Keenum out. JJM could have sat a few seasons and provided backup. In theory there's nothing wrong with that. We don't know what JJM is and he could be the best in the North before the season is up. If not it will be a waiting game and season(s) of trial and error. We won't win like that. I'm not saying anything you don't know. Just a rant because it looks like the same old story again. I call Brosmer the current Wade Wison.

[VikingLord]

Did he deserve to have his HC send him out there to get beat over and over and over when he clearly was in very bad shape? No. Wentz is one tough son of a ####. Most of us would have been in the fetal position in the 1st quarter. He gave everything to this team last night that he could. KOC talks about franchises ruining QBs, and you have to save players from themselves, blah blah blah. He did NONE of that last night. It was disgusting to watch. The other players on the roster saw it. They saw it on the sideline. They saw it on the field. We all saw it. He didn't give a #### what happened to the player.

I don't know if it's appropriate to make KOC solely responsible for Wentz not being pulled from the game. All of the following quotes are taken from this article over at Vikings.com https://www.vikings.com/news/carson-wen ... oss-week-8:

"Pain is pain," said Wentz, reflecting on his performance and denying ever feeling close to pulling himself. "I felt like I could still help this team and find a way to go down and score and all that stuff."

But I think I can put the blame on KOC for putting the team's interest in having a QB who can physically perform over deciding who his starter is. Apparently, as long as the medical staff and that player say he can go, he goes no matter how he is performing:

Head Coach Kevin O'Connell remarked "you have to value" Wentz's competitiveness.

"As long as the medical team informs me, which they did a couple times, that he's no worse than what he came into the game with (in terms of injury), you've got to give a guy that wants to tow the line and go in there, you've got to give him a chance to do that," he said. "Until it becomes: He can't do his job."

Um, what? So KOC will apparently keep trotting a player out no matter how he is performing? Yes, Wentz was under pressure but there were multiple times when the announcers were saying Wentz just wasn't getting the ball out. I didn't see anything as egregious as last week when Wentz didn't attempt a designed throw to a wide open CJ Ham and instead intentionally grounded the ball, but there must have been opportunities to attempt some throws. But it was sack after sack after sack because Wentz would not do that. I refuse to believe Brosmer would have been that ineffective even with that pressure. But of course, we'll never know because apparently KOC prioritizes some twisted logic over actually giving his team the best chance to win. I joked about Wentz eventually getting under center on a wheelchair and while I know that will never happen, what KOC had to say about it is unbelievable. A head coach should have no problem benching an ineffective player for any reason. Period.

I actually don't admire Wentz for staying out there either. For what? He wasn't performing and it wasn't like they had a chance to win. He just kept taking sacks and getting the crap beat out of him. It would have been better for everyone if he sat and yet he apparently refused to do so and then was caught pouting on the sideline like a little kid. Just nuts this is where the Vikings find themselves at QB yet again...

If you have only ONE QB on your roster that you think you can play, then you need to find another damn QB. Brosmer should have been in after half time. End of story. What would have happened if he played bad? We lose? No ####, that was already happening.

Totally agree with this. Do the Vikings have a viable QB in Brosmer? There was an opportunity to start answering that question last night. Did KOC avail himself of that opportunity? Nope.

They got their behinds handed to them and what we know is that Carson Wentz is apparently tough. Great. Fantastic news.

[makila]

Did he deserve to have his HC send him out there to get beat over and over and over when he clearly was in very bad shape? No. Wentz is one tough son of a ####. Most of us would have been in the fetal position in the 1st quarter. He gave everything to this team last night that he could. KOC talks about franchises ruining QBs, and you have to save players from themselves, blah blah blah. He did NONE of that last night. It was disgusting to watch. The other players on the roster saw it. They saw it on the sideline. They saw it on the field. We all saw it. He didn't give a #### what happened to the player.

I don't know if it's appropriate to make KOC solely responsible for Wentz not being pulled from the game. All of the following quotes are taken from this article over at Vikings.com https://www.vikings.com/news/carson-wen ... oss-week-8:

"Pain is pain," said Wentz, reflecting on his performance and denying ever feeling close to pulling himself. "I felt like I could still help this team and find a way to go down and score and all that stuff."

But I think I can put the blame on KOC for putting the team's interest in having a QB who can physically perform over deciding who his starter is. Apparently, as long as the medical staff and that player say he can go, he goes no matter how he is performing:

Head Coach Kevin O'Connell remarked "you have to value" Wentz's competitiveness.

"As long as the medical team informs me, which they did a couple times, that he's no worse than what he came into the game with (in terms of injury), you've got to give a guy that wants to tow the line and go in there, you've got to give him a chance to do that," he said. "Until it becomes: He can't do his job."

Um, what? So KOC will apparently keep trotting a player out no matter how he is performing? Yes, Wentz was under pressure but there were multiple times when the announcers were saying Wentz just wasn't getting the ball out. I didn't see anything as egregious as last week when Wentz didn't attempt a designed throw to a wide open CJ Ham and instead intentionally grounded the ball, but there must have been opportunities to attempt some throws. But it was sack after sack after sack because Wentz would not do that. I refuse to believe Brosmer would have been that ineffective even with that pressure. But of course, we'll never know because apparently KOC prioritizes some twisted logic over actually giving his team the best chance to win. I joked about Wentz eventually getting under center on a wheelchair and while I know that will never happen, what KOC had to say about it is unbelievable. A head coach should have no problem benching an ineffective player for any reason. Period.

I actually don't admire Wentz for staying out there either. For what? He wasn't performing and it wasn't like they had a chance to win. He just kept taking sacks and getting the crap beat out of him. It would have been better for everyone if he sat and yet he apparently refused to do so and then was caught pouting on the sideline like a little kid. Just nuts this is where the Vikings find themselves at QB yet again...

If you have only ONE QB on your roster that you think you can play, then you need to find another damn QB. Brosmer should have been in after half time. End of story. What would have happened if he played bad? We lose? No ####, that was already happening.

Totally agree with this. Do the Vikings have a viable QB in Brosmer? There was an opportunity to start answering that question last night. Did KOC avail himself of that opportunity? Nope.

They got their behinds handed to them and what we know is that Carson Wentz is apparently tough. Great. Fantastic news.

I don't agree with the first parts here. He's the HC. He's the QB guy. He's the one calling plays. The buck stops with him, so yes, he is solely responsible (imho) for keeping Wentz out there (for whatever reason). Again, he talks about having to protect players from themselves, and then proceeds to let Wentz get pummeled when he clearly was hurt, and ineffective.

FWIW... if JJM is the 3rd qb (which he has been), it means he's medically cleared. KOC keeps waiting for this perfect scenario, that doesn't happen in the NFL, to play JJM. He has said he won't play JJM until he's 100%. So what happens when he gets hit some and is 90%? Pull him?

Not trying to be combative with you, I'm just past the excuse making for KOC and the QB handling when things don't go perfect for him and his QB. Enjoy the dialogue with you here.

[VikingLord]

Yeah I think they definitely need to start jjm going forward and see what happens. Have been of that opinion all season.

If he is, or isnt, the guy, then it provides a direction.

If he's not the guy what direction does it provide and how long is long enough to decide that?

I'm asking that as an honest question because the path forward from that point (if that is the point they ultimately reach this season) is not clear to me.

Let's say JJM stays healthy the rest of this year and he continues to struggle. Not seeing the field, not making plays, the accuracy and timing issues continue, etc. Does he get a pass because the offensive line isn't perfect, the running game isn't great, the defense can't stop anyone, etc., or will the coaching staff be able to fairly evaluate his performance? I guess what I'm driving at is how invested are they in the JJM experiment, because that is what it is in all honesty. Taken 10th overall or 1st overall or with the last pick in a given draft, a QB prospect is just that - a prospect. A lot of those guys don't pan out no matter how ideal their situation is in terms of team, coach, etc.

How long does JJM get before it's reasonable to say what he is as a pro QB? How long should KOC stick with him if he's not showing improvement? He's already lost his rookie season and a big chunk of this season in terms of both development and evaluation.

Let's say they finish with 5 wins this year and end up with another high 1st round pick? Do they go after another QB with that pick? Do they stick with McCarthy and ply the free agent junk pile hoping to find treasure in someone else's trash? What is the direction given where they sit?

Had Brosmer gotten some real playing time last night they might at least have an idea of what he can do. That was a missed opportunity.

[VikingLord]

FWIW... if JJM is the 3rd qb (which he has been), it means he's medically cleared. KOC keeps waiting for this perfect scenario, that doesn't happen in the NFL, to play JJM. He has said he won't play JJM until he's 100%. So what happens when he gets hit some and is 90%? Pull him?

KOC is the captain of the ship. If he sees an iceberg looming and refuses to change course to avoid it, whatever happens to the ship is his responsibility. If he takes the word of the guy behind the wheel that he can avoid the iceberg and that guy ends up being wrong, KOC is still responsible. KOC has to judge whether the guy behind the wheel can see well enough to steer the ship in all conditions. His call if the guy is partially blind but yeah, there is definitely inconsistency there with McCarthy's injury situation as compared to Wentz's injury situation.

That just speaks to what I think is really going on - KOC is not playing McCarthy because he doesn't think McCarthy gives him the best chance to win. A Wentz with one arm missing seems to be a better option than a McCarthy who stubbed his big toe at this point. Scary thought at a scary time of the year.

Not trying to be combative with you, I'm just past the excuse making for KOC and the QB handling when things don't go perfect for him and his QB. Enjoy the dialogue with you here.

I am not trying to be combative either and I also enjoy the dialogue. I'm just aghast at how KOC and KAM have handled the QB situation generally at this point. The situation they find themselves in this year is entirely of their own creation. It didn't have to be this way. They can't control the fact that McCarthy got hurt again but even when he was in there as the starter it wasn't good and they have zero to fall back on. They literally went out and scooped Wentz off the junk pile because Howell was a complete basket case. They apparently don't trust Brosmer. And I'm really not sure where they go from here if McCarthy doesn't pan out. All of their eggs went into that figurative basket and as of right now it looks like a losing bet.

[TremorVike]

As I see it the path is give JJ the rest of the year, that's 10 games to show something win or loss. So far after only showing that spark 1 out of 8 quarters played has me leaning negative, buts its early. Another injury in those games also gives bad vibes...

I only see maybe 2 more wins on the schedule the way the team is currently playing, lets hope the kid can show us something and at least make the games watchable. Last night was some of the worst football in recent history, both sides of the ball.

4 or 5 win team should lead to a pretty good draft pick, lets hope its not on another QB.

[makila]

Yeah I think they definitely need to start jjm going forward and see what happens. Have been of that opinion all season.

If he is, or isnt, the guy, then it provides a direction.

If he's not the guy what direction does it provide and how long is long enough to decide that?

I'm asking that as an honest question because the path forward from that point (if that is the point they ultimately reach this season) is not clear to me.

Let's say JJM stays healthy the rest of this year and he continues to struggle. Not seeing the field, not making plays, the accuracy and timing issues continue, etc. Does he get a pass because the offensive line isn't perfect, the running game isn't great, the defense can't stop anyone, etc., or will the coaching staff be able to fairly evaluate his performance? I guess what I'm driving at is how invested are they in the JJM experiment, because that is what it is in all honesty. Taken 10th overall or 1st overall or with the last pick in a given draft, a QB prospect is just that - a prospect. A lot of those guys don't pan out no matter how ideal their situation is in terms of team, coach, etc.

How long does JJM get before it's reasonable to say what he is as a pro QB? How long should KOC stick with him if he's not showing improvement? He's already lost his rookie season and a big chunk of this season in terms of both development and evaluation.

Let's say they finish with 5 wins this year and end up with another high 1st round pick? Do they go after another QB with that pick? Do they stick with McCarthy and ply the free agent junk pile hoping to find treasure in someone else's trash? What is the direction given where they sit?

Had Brosmer gotten some real playing time last night they might at least have an idea of what he can do. That was a missed opportunity.

I think that he should be able to flash here and there if he's going to be a good NFL QB. He should start every game going forward, regardless of results. Completely agree about prospect is a prospect until they prove they aren't. However if they weren't willing to go through growing pains (that means losing and bad play), they shouldn't have invested in one of the more development needed qbs in that draft. Both Penix and Nix played a LOT more college ball and were more "now" prospects (still prospects though).

These perfect idealized scenarios that KOC wants don't exist. Any QB is going to play behind a poor oline at some point. Any QB is going to be beat up and hit at some point. Etc. I will acknowledge my opinion on this has changed a bit over the last few months. Before I was more in the "wait for things to be right camp", I saw David Carr never recover from being destroyed his rookie year. So I don't want him thrown the wolves, we're at the point he has to get reps though. Or are we doing the Packers route here where he sits for 3 seasons? I guess that is an example of where that blueprint worked.

They've definitely created an environment where I don't know if they have a clear path. Brosmer absolutely should have been in the game after halftime. Simply because it could have given some sort of insight as to how much of it was Wentz's indecisiveness (Brosmer appears to be a quick decision maker with the ball), vs the offensive scheme, vs the offensive line. Also, maybe they have something in Brosmer. I doubt it, but you won't freaking know unless they take some snaps.

[Husker Vike]

I am just as disappointed in the defense as the ineptitude of the offense. Offseason acquisitions of bolstering the D line has been a failure, Hargrave and Allen have been busts.

[VikingLord]

They've definitely created an environment where I don't know if they have a clear path. Brosmer absolutely should have been in the game after halftime. Simply because it could have given some sort of insight as to how much of it was Wentz's indecisiveness (Brosmer appears to be a quick decision maker with the ball), vs the offensive scheme, vs the offensive line. Also, maybe they have something in Brosmer. I doubt it, but you won't freaking know unless they take some snaps.

That actually underscores another thing about the way KOC treated McCarthy during the preseason. I think McCarthy played one series (or was it two) in the first preseason game and that was it. KOC treated McCarthy more like he was an established vet like Rodgers than a rookie QB who needed all the reps he could get.

He then proceeded to trot Howell out for long stretches of those games. Granted, Brosmer got in there for long stretches too but between Howell and Brosmer, KOC needed a lot more information on Brosmer than he did on Howell. The fact they ended up shipping Howell before the season even started made that worse. It should have been McCarthy playing the first half of each preseason game at a minimum with Brosmer getting the majority of the relief work so KOC could make the preseason playing time as valuable to himself and the team as he could. Instead, he protected McCarthy (from what, I don't know) and then wasted substantial reps on a vet backup that he already should have known plenty about.

I just don't know what KOC is doing here. He and KAM made some really questionable decisions over the offseason when it came to making sure they were able to start the best QB they could, and then KOC compounded the impact of those decisions by not just annointing McCarthy as the starting QB, but treating him like he'd already earned something, and then not doing all he could to also learn about what he had in Brosmer, who he chose to be the 3rd string QB but now apparently doesn't trust enough to put him on the field for meaningful snaps.

If I were KOC at this point I would enlist the guidance of some non-invested people I trust to help guide further decisions related to the QB position. He needs some perspective in my opinion.

[VikingLord]

I am just as disappointed in the defense as the ineptitude of the offense. Offseason acquisitions of bolstering the D line has been a failure, Hargrave and Allen have been busts.

They insist on playing those guys too even though it seems like the younger guys are better. Ditto for Wilson over Pace. Pace saw the field some against the Chargers but he sat the game against the Eagles because Wilson was better and more consistent. Which is nuts.

I don't know if someone can sit Dallas Turner but there has to be a guy on the defensive side of the ball who wants it more than what we're seeing from Turner so far.

The defense overall just looks disjointed. The pass plays they give up where nobody is anywhere near a receiver who is way down the field are emblematic of the issue. I just don't see other defenses repeatedly giving up plays like that. They got hit for several of those yesterday on top of the deep strikes Hurts put on them last Sunday. Metellus looks stiff and slow and like he has no idea what he's doing in coverage. Okudah and Rodgers both seem vulnerable to balls going over the top and receivers breaking off routes to come back when the QB is flushed out of the pocket, which is apparently something neither recognizes is happening. Harrison Smith is just average now. He can make plays but he's not going to scare opposing QBs away either.

Just really disappointing performances from the defense so far this year that all starts with the failure to defend the run and get off the field on 3rd down. This year's defense has to be among the worst I've seen in both aspects. Add to that the repeated unforced penalties and lack of turnovers and this might end up being one of the worst overall defenses in the league by the time the season ends.