CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Feb 18, 2024 2:58 pm
Penix gets hurt every year. Don't you think that will continue or was it bad luck? I'd prefer a safer pick at 42.
I picked him there because the other main guys were gone and i think it will be too expensive to move up. Hell...Penix, Nix, and McCarthy might go 25-35. This is going to get interesting.
You're right. I saw a mock that had the Bucs take Penix at 26.
People keep saying they don't want another Ponder in the 1st round. I agree, but why take him in the 2nd instead?
I'm not interested in grabbing a 2nd or 3rd tier QB and pretending they're addressing the QB position another 3 years. I'd rather they resign Cousins and sign a decent backup QB in free agency. Maybe try again next year for a serious shot at QB.
I think both Nix and Penix have a decent shot at being good NFL QBs. That's why I take them in the 2nd round.
For the record, I think all of what I see as the 2nd-tier QB prospects in the upcoming draft (McCarthy, Nix and Penix) will be gone by the middle of the 2nd round at the latest, and I could even see all three of them go by the end of the 1st in addition to the top 3 QB prospects who will go 1-2-3 (Williams, Maye, Daniels). That just reflects the dire need at QB in the NFL right now along with the general positional inflation that results from that demand.
So if KAM passes on one of the 2nd tier QBs at #11 and decides to wait until his 2nd rounder comes around to draft a QB, he might very well find he's either totally out of luck or he's forced to choose the last guy standing in the 2nd tier group ala what he ended up doing at CB when he drafted Booth in the 2nd. That isn't a great way to improve at the position IMHO, so I'm in agreement with Cliff on this. If KAM and KOC aren't sold on a QB prospect who would otherwise be available to them at #11, why spend a 2nd rounder on that guy either, especially when they don't have a 3rd rounder at all.
If they are sold on one of the 2nd tier QBs, then they should either take him at #11 and ensure they get him, or, if they do trade back, trade back only far enough to where they're still very likely to be able to get him, because if KAM pulls another move like he did in his first draft where he trades out of a pick where he could have gotten an impact player for a couple of also-rans or never-weres, that isn't going to get the job done. Quite frankly, if something like that happens again I think KAM should just be fired. The team, his team that he constructed, finished poorly enough to earn the 11th pic in the 1st round of this year's draft. That poor performance has value now. It should not be lightly traded away or squandered on less talented players.
From where I sit and if the QB position were fairly valued, Williams has the talent to legit be considered for the 1st overall pick, Mayes would likely come off the board around #15, Daniels would go in the first half of the 2nd, and the trio of McCarthy, Penix and Nix would be gone by the end of the 3rd.
Here's another guy besides Carter Bradley that might be a bit of a sleeper for the wrong reasons - Joe Milton of Tennessee. He gets almost no press because he doesn't put a lot of run/scramble highlights on tape, but the guy is big (6'5" @ 235 pounds) and can make all the throws. He could still be on the board in the 4th and he'd be excellent value there if he were.
I think both Nix and Penix have a decent shot at being good NFL QBs. That's why I take them in the 2nd round.
For the record, I think all of what I see as the 2nd-tier QB prospects in the upcoming draft (McCarthy, Nix and Penix) will be gone by the middle of the 2nd round at the latest, and I could even see all three of them go by the end of the 1st in addition to the top 3 QB prospects who will go 1-2-3 (Williams, Maye, Daniels). That just reflects the dire need at QB in the NFL right now along with the general positional inflation that results from that demand.
So if KAM passes on one of the 2nd tier QBs at #11 and decides to wait until his 2nd rounder comes around to draft a QB, he might very well find he's either totally out of luck or he's forced to choose the last guy standing in the 2nd tier group ala what he ended up doing at CB when he drafted Booth in the 2nd. That isn't a great way to improve at the position IMHO, so I'm in agreement with Cliff on this. If KAM and KOC aren't sold on a QB prospect who would otherwise be available to them at #11, why spend a 2nd rounder on that guy either, especially when they don't have a 3rd rounder at all.
If they are sold on one of the 2nd tier QBs, then they should either take him at #11 and ensure they get him, or, if they do trade back, trade back only far enough to where they're still very likely to be able to get him, because if KAM pulls another move like he did in his first draft where he trades out of a pick where he could have gotten an impact player for a couple of also-rans or never-weres, that isn't going to get the job done. Quite frankly, if something like that happens again I think KAM should just be fired. The team, his team that he constructed, finished poorly enough to earn the 11th pic in the 1st round of this year's draft. That poor performance has value now. It should not be lightly traded away or squandered on less talented players.
From where I sit and if the QB position were fairly valued, Williams has the talent to legit be considered for the 1st overall pick, Mayes would likely come off the board around #15, Daniels would go in the first half of the 2nd, and the trio of McCarthy, Penix and Nix would be gone by the end of the 3rd.
Here's another guy besides Carter Bradley that might be a bit of a sleeper for the wrong reasons - Joe Milton of Tennessee. He gets almost no press because he doesn't put a lot of run/scramble highlights on tape, but the guy is big (6'5" @ 235 pounds) and can make all the throws. He could still be on the board in the 4th and he'd be excellent value there if he were.
I'm a big believer is drafting players where they should be drafted according to what you see on film. I can't justify McCarthy, Nix or Penix at 11. McCarthy somewhere in the later 1st and Nix and Penix in the second. If they aren't available that means they pushed somebody better further down the draft board to us.
Re: 2024 NFL Draft
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:48 am
by VikingLord
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:16 pm
I can't justify McCarthy, Nix or Penix at 11. McCarthy somewhere in the later 1st and Nix and Penix in the second.
I think McCarthy's main attractions are that he is relatively young and he shows some nice ability to improvise and get the ball downfield. His negatives are poor timing, late reads and he makes some reckless throws. This could be due to his youth and it might be possible for him to be coached to correct his flaws, but who knows? It might be something he can't or won't correct even if he gets good coaching. It would be helpful for a guy like McCarthy to sit behind an established starter like Cousins for a year or two before he gets thrown into the mix, but if KAM signs Cousins to an extension, I'm not sure he'll want to make a high draft investment in a speculative QB.
What bothers me the most about McCarthy is that he gets pro comps with guys like Daniel Jones and Will Levis. Both of those guys have real strengths in certain areas, but they also have what I consider fatal weaknesses that will prevent either from becoming dominant QBs as pros. If McCarthy can't be coached out of his negatives, he will likely become the next guy in the line of pro QBs who, once defensive coordinators figure out how to exploit the weaknesses, never have enduring success.
I think both Nix and Penix have a decent shot at being good NFL QBs. That's why I take them in the 2nd round.
For the record, I think all of what I see as the 2nd-tier QB prospects in the upcoming draft (McCarthy, Nix and Penix) will be gone by the middle of the 2nd round at the latest, and I could even see all three of them go by the end of the 1st in addition to the top 3 QB prospects who will go 1-2-3 (Williams, Maye, Daniels). That just reflects the dire need at QB in the NFL right now along with the general positional inflation that results from that demand.
So if KAM passes on one of the 2nd tier QBs at #11 and decides to wait until his 2nd rounder comes around to draft a QB, he might very well find he's either totally out of luck or he's forced to choose the last guy standing in the 2nd tier group ala what he ended up doing at CB when he drafted Booth in the 2nd. That isn't a great way to improve at the position IMHO, so I'm in agreement with Cliff on this. If KAM and KOC aren't sold on a QB prospect who would otherwise be available to them at #11, why spend a 2nd rounder on that guy either, especially when they don't have a 3rd rounder at all.
If they are sold on one of the 2nd tier QBs, then they should either take him at #11 and ensure they get him, or, if they do trade back, trade back only far enough to where they're still very likely to be able to get him, because if KAM pulls another move like he did in his first draft where he trades out of a pick where he could have gotten an impact player for a couple of also-rans or never-weres, that isn't going to get the job done. Quite frankly, if something like that happens again I think KAM should just be fired. The team, his team that he constructed, finished poorly enough to earn the 11th pic in the 1st round of this year's draft. That poor performance has value now. It should not be lightly traded away or squandered on less talented players.
From where I sit and if the QB position were fairly valued, Williams has the talent to legit be considered for the 1st overall pick, Mayes would likely come off the board around #15, Daniels would go in the first half of the 2nd, and the trio of McCarthy, Penix and Nix would be gone by the end of the 3rd.
Here's another guy besides Carter Bradley that might be a bit of a sleeper for the wrong reasons - Joe Milton of Tennessee. He gets almost no press because he doesn't put a lot of run/scramble highlights on tape, but the guy is big (6'5" @ 235 pounds) and can make all the throws. He could still be on the board in the 4th and he'd be excellent value there if he were.
Milton will slide down. He couldn't keep and then not get the job at Michigan so he got out. I always have a problem when a guy gets out. Compete and win the job. In the NFL he will need to compete. That takes extra work. But he certainly has a chance. KAM should have been fired when he traded down to nowhere for nothing. We are all creates of habit so I expect it again. He's a body collector not a talent collector. He thinks more bodies is as good as one dominate player. I don 't understand that thought process. A dominate player improves everyone around them. They will get the focus and still make plays.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:16 pm
I can't justify McCarthy, Nix or Penix at 11. McCarthy somewhere in the later 1st and Nix and Penix in the second.
I think McCarthy's main attractions are that he is relatively young and he shows some nice ability to improvise and get the ball downfield. His negatives are poor timing, late reads and he makes some reckless throws. This could be due to his youth and it might be possible for him to be coached to correct his flaws, but who knows? It might be something he can't or won't correct even if he gets good coaching. It would be helpful for a guy like McCarthy to sit behind an established starter like Cousins for a year or two before he gets thrown into the mix, but if KAM signs Cousins to an extension, I'm not sure he'll want to make a high draft investment in a speculative QB.
What bothers me the most about McCarthy is that he gets pro comps with guys like Daniel Jones and Will Levis. Both of those guys have real strengths in certain areas, but they also have what I consider fatal weaknesses that will prevent either from becoming dominant QBs as pros. If McCarthy can't be coached out of his negatives, he will likely become the next guy in the line of pro QBs who, once defensive coordinators figure out how to exploit the weaknesses, never have enduring success.
Like you posted McCarthy is very young. Most guys have been through a red shirt season and a grooming season at that age while he won it all. I only seen Daniel Jones play the two games against us. I thought he looked very good. Of course after us he sucked for some reason. Number one I think his OL blows and no QB plays good with that. He also don't have many weapons besides a RB. He basically has no chance with that before he gets started. Much like us they can't put the basic must have level together. When a team gets destroyed at the point it's over. However others might feel Jones sucks which is ok I heard that about Cousins also. That's ok to because it's just an opinion which I respect. I just don't see much in Penix. Already 2 ACL injuries and others. I don't know why a team would use a pick on that player. Richardson last year had injury concerns before the draft and was picked No 4. Well injured year one. I like pro comps. I always try to look for them. I'd take Daniel Jones. But I'd fix our OL first.
I think McCarthy's main attractions are that he is relatively young and he shows some nice ability to improvise and get the ball downfield. His negatives are poor timing, late reads and he makes some reckless throws. This could be due to his youth and it might be possible for him to be coached to correct his flaws, but who knows? It might be something he can't or won't correct even if he gets good coaching. It would be helpful for a guy like McCarthy to sit behind an established starter like Cousins for a year or two before he gets thrown into the mix, but if KAM signs Cousins to an extension, I'm not sure he'll want to make a high draft investment in a speculative QB.
What bothers me the most about McCarthy is that he gets pro comps with guys like Daniel Jones and Will Levis. Both of those guys have real strengths in certain areas, but they also have what I consider fatal weaknesses that will prevent either from becoming dominant QBs as pros. If McCarthy can't be coached out of his negatives, he will likely become the next guy in the line of pro QBs who, once defensive coordinators figure out how to exploit the weaknesses, never have enduring success.
Like you posted McCarthy is very young. Most guys have been through a red shirt season and a grooming season at that age while he won it all. I only seen Daniel Jones play the two games against us. I thought he looked very good. Of course after us he sucked for some reason. Number one I think his OL blows and no QB plays good with that. He also don't have many weapons besides a RB. He basically has no chance with that before he gets started. Much like us they can't put the basic must have level together. When a team gets destroyed at the point it's over. However others might feel Jones sucks which is ok I heard that about Cousins also. That's ok to because it's just an opinion which I respect. I just don't see much in Penix. Already 2 ACL injuries and others. I don't know why a team would use a pick on that player. Richardson last year had injury concerns before the draft and was picked No 4. Well injured year one. I like pro comps. I always try to look for them. I'd take Daniel Jones. But I'd fix our OL first.
I don't know if I'd take Daniel Jones at any price, but certainly no more than $20 million. I think he's a solid backup QB and more like a $10 million a year guy.
Re: 2024 NFL Draft
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:41 pm
by VikingsVictorious
If Luke Braun was making the pick at 11 it would be Chop Robinson. He doesn't care about mocks having him in the 2nd round.
Re: 2024 NFL Draft
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:08 pm
by cmoss84
For some reason I see #9 (Bears second pick) as the spot desperate teams will trade up to to select a QB (other than the top 3). Hopefully it will not be us. If this happens, BPA at #11 is going to be amazing.
Re: 2024 NFL Draft
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 7:47 pm
by VikingLord
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:41 pm
If Luke Braun was making the pick at 11 it would be Chop Robinson. He doesn't care about mocks having him in the 2nd round.
I like Chop too but I'm concerned about his size as an edge in the pros. But nobody can deny the guy has insane natural talent and if put in a good situation he's going to make an impact. I also don't doubt that Flores would love to have a guy like that on the team.
But I don't see Chop replacing the production of a guy like Hunter. He'd most likely have to slide inside, so that would still leave the Vikings with a gaping hole on the edge if Hunter leaves. The other thing that would really bother me with taking Chop at #11 is KAM would be passing up at least one, if not two or more, edge players who really could play that position out of the gate and make an immediate impact (those players being Turner, Verse and Latu).
It will be really fascinating to see how KAM evaluates his options at #11. My gut tells me he will try to trade back and get a third rounder back at least.
Re: 2024 NFL Draft
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2024 8:01 pm
by VikingLord
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:54 am
I only seen Daniel Jones play the two games against us. I thought he looked very good. Of course after us he sucked for some reason. Number one I think his OL blows and no QB plays good with that. He also don't have many weapons besides a RB.
I don't think it was just for some reason. I think Jones put his tendencies on tape for every DC to see and every DC other than Donatell managed to take advantage of it. Donatell may have been a good coach but he was a horrible, terrible, no good defensive strategist, and his refusal to design his defense to exploit the weaknesses of opposing offensive players really hurt the team throughout the year he was the DC for the Vikings. Jones was just one of many weaker QBs who ate up the opportunity to play against that defense.
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:54 am
He basically has no chance with that before he gets started. Much like us they can't put the basic must have level together. When a team gets destroyed at the point it's over. However others might feel Jones sucks which is ok I heard that about Cousins also. That's ok to because it's just an opinion which I respect.
I think every QB has weaknesses. The question is, can the defense find and exploit them? To some degree that does come down to the players around the QB and how good they are. A great offensive line/running game/receivers can, to some degree, compensate for obvious flaws in a given QB. And likewise, a great QB can make average players around him look better than they otherwise are. So I think you have a point there in regards to Jones (and Cousins). I personally think Cousins is much better overall than Jones because he does a much better job processing the field and is a much better passer to the middle and deep parts of the field than Jones, but Jones is a much better and shiftier runner and has more escapability when the pocket breaks down. I personally will take the better passer over the better runner at QB any day of the week.
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:54 am
I just don't see much in Penix. Already 2 ACL injuries and others. I don't know why a team would use a pick on that player. Richardson last year had injury concerns before the draft and was picked No 4. Well injured year one. I like pro comps. I always try to look for them. I'd take Daniel Jones. But I'd fix our OL first.
Whether I'd take Jones depends on who else is available. If Jones were the best option, I'd take him, but I think there are better options.
As for Penix, he's an older player with an extensive injury history. He's played through some of those injuries, so he's proven he's pretty tough, but any team that takes him high in the draft is really rolling the dice IMHO. I'm not even sure I'd be excited to see KAM take him in the 2nd, mostly because I think better talent will be on the board when that pick rolls around at OL, S, and possibly CB.
The way this draft is shaping up, KAM looks to have his pick of the litter at DE with #11, and he could grab a really good Center or Guard prospect with his pick in the 2nd. Then skip the 3rd (no trades up) and, if he wants to take a swing at QB in the 4th, go with a guy like Milton or Bradley if there.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:41 pm
If Luke Braun was making the pick at 11 it would be Chop Robinson. He doesn't care about mocks having him in the 2nd round.
I like Chop too but I'm concerned about his size as an edge in the pros. But nobody can deny the guy has insane natural talent and if put in a good situation he's going to make an impact. I also don't doubt that Flores would love to have a guy like that on the team.
But I don't see Chop replacing the production of a guy like Hunter. He'd most likely have to slide inside, so that would still leave the Vikings with a gaping hole on the edge if Hunter leaves. The other thing that would really bother me with taking Chop at #11 is KAM would be passing up at least one, if not two or more, edge players who really could play that position out of the gate and make an immediate impact (those players being Turner, Verse and Latu).
It will be really fascinating to see how KAM evaluates his options at #11. My gut tells me he will try to trade back and get a third rounder back at least.
I wasn't saying anything about how I felt on drafting Chop. I was just sharing what Luke thought. I've always been in the Turner/Latu camp, but what Luke says is intriguing.
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:54 am
I only seen Daniel Jones play the two games against us. I thought he looked very good. Of course after us he sucked for some reason. Number one I think his OL blows and no QB plays good with that. He also don't have many weapons besides a RB.
I don't think it was just for some reason. I think Jones put his tendencies on tape for every DC to see and every DC other than Donatell managed to take advantage of it. Donatell may have been a good coach but he was a horrible, terrible, no good defensive strategist, and his refusal to design his defense to exploit the weaknesses of opposing offensive players really hurt the team throughout the year he was the DC for the Vikings. Jones was just one of many weaker QBs who ate up the opportunity to play against that defense.
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:54 am
He basically has no chance with that before he gets started. Much like us they can't put the basic must have level together. When a team gets destroyed at the point it's over. However others might feel Jones sucks which is ok I heard that about Cousins also. That's ok to because it's just an opinion which I respect.
I think every QB has weaknesses. The question is, can the defense find and exploit them? To some degree that does come down to the players around the QB and how good they are. A great offensive line/running game/receivers can, to some degree, compensate for obvious flaws in a given QB. And likewise, a great QB can make average players around him look better than they otherwise are. So I think you have a point there in regards to Jones (and Cousins). I personally think Cousins is much better overall than Jones because he does a much better job processing the field and is a much better passer to the middle and deep parts of the field than Jones, but Jones is a much better and shiftier runner and has more escapability when the pocket breaks down. I personally will take the better passer over the better runner at QB any day of the week.
CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:54 am
I just don't see much in Penix. Already 2 ACL injuries and others. I don't know why a team would use a pick on that player. Richardson last year had injury concerns before the draft and was picked No 4. Well injured year one. I like pro comps. I always try to look for them. I'd take Daniel Jones. But I'd fix our OL first.
Whether I'd take Jones depends on who else is available. If Jones were the best option, I'd take him, but I think there are better options.
As for Penix, he's an older player with an extensive injury history. He's played through some of those injuries, so he's proven he's pretty tough, but any team that takes him high in the draft is really rolling the dice IMHO. I'm not even sure I'd be excited to see KAM take him in the 2nd, mostly because I think better talent will be on the board when that pick rolls around at OL, S, and possibly CB.
The way this draft is shaping up, KAM looks to have his pick of the litter at DE with #11, and he could grab a really good Center or Guard prospect with his pick in the 2nd. Then skip the 3rd (no trades up) and, if he wants to take a swing at QB in the 4th, go with a guy like Milton or Bradley if there.
Jones is probably another in the long list of top 10 QBs that never amount to much. But that team also does him no favors with that OL. He got sacked 11 times in one game last year. For the now we will have a pick of some very good players at 11. The good for us is it's possible 5 QBs could come off the board before our pick. They should be able to get a cream player at that spot. A later QB isn't a bad idea either. My favorite is Pratt but like all of them he has issues. If we can get someone to sit and learn a few seasons I think that would be best. I'd prefer to build the trenches which includes edge rushers. I would also entertain the trade JJ idea which would give us the needed ammo to make moves. Of course you never want to give up a player like that but sometimes you need to give something up to help fill out a rotating roster. We are lucky to have Flores now because I think he gets guys to play hard for him. If they let Cousins walk it's basically a start over because we will have zero chance of competing for anything. Even the entertainment value goes away because watching that crap we had playing last year isn't even watchable. We'll see how it shakes out.
Re: 2024 NFL Draft
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:50 pm
by VikingsVictorious
More fuel to the Murphy to the Vikings fire.
Re: 2024 NFL Draft
Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:52 am
by VikingsVictorious
Penix is having a great combine. All medicals looking good, measurables coming up great with 10.5 inch hands compared to McCarthy 9 inch hands. Throwing the ball better than every other QB there.
Nix having a very poor combine. I'm on the Penix bandwagon, but now I'm pretty sure we can't get him in the 2nd round.