Vikings Message Board.Com

S197 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:56 pm
Rick is tied to Cousins' success. Even if we ignore the fact that Rick simply doesn't draft QB's when he has a starter, it doesn't make sense even if the extremely improbable event happens like a Fields at #14. He's not keeping his job if he drafts a 1st round QB and pays Cousins $45M to be a backup. That is an admission of colossal failure.

Nothing says Cousins would be the backup. Let the young QB be the backup until he's ready.

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:37 pm

S197 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:56 pm
Rick is tied to Cousins' success. Even if we ignore the fact that Rick simply doesn't draft QB's when he has a starter, it doesn't make sense even if the extremely improbable event happens like a Fields at #14. He's not keeping his job if he drafts a 1st round QB and pays Cousins $45M to be a backup. That is an admission of colossal failure.

Nothing says Cousins would be the backup. Let the young QB be the backup until he's ready.

I agree that he doesn’t have to start. I think wise not having to...
Cousins is being paid a zillion cap dollars. Got to play him...

Good for a rookie to sit, learn, get ready, prepare.seem to recall David Carr, Houston. Thrown in right away on a bad team.sacked countless times...IMO He got shell shocked. Never IMO became a quality NFL QB...
I think he Could-have. Given the chance to sit and learn, some can probably handle.. But even mahomes sat most of the season if I recall.

Let him sit behind Cousins and learn...

I also think if we went QBs round one, the following years keep drafting. Maybe not first round, but rounds 3-4... QBs are so important, so hit and miss in draft, so costly contract time. Have we had any luck with our 7th rounders, free agent undrafted rookie . How many Bradys, Warner’s, Delhomes are there....

Washington Drafted RGIII, first, Cousins round 3. Why if RGIII was so set to start. Probably would have been good for him to sit to.

But R.S. Isn’t doing this,

Foreman44 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:40 pm Not a trash fan here. Rather have Mac Jones, not sure either one in top 15,

My guess is a couple will drop low. Like Bridgewater late, Last year Georgias QB dropped to the 4th. Personally I am for finding a young qb...

One who can sit behind cousins. Learn. Not a 7th rounder or or an undrafted free agent. They need to go QB every year til they find there man and after, the cost if starting QBs... I am waiting to see how long Mahiome’s contract kills K.C.

We picked Brad Johnson in the 9th round and he did win a Super Bowl. They can be found all over the board. Tony Romo was undrafted. We will keep Cousins. The opinion of him is all over the board here but I think he's the best since Fran. I agree that we should pick a QB if one is there that we feel can be the long term answer. This year the top guy is Trevor Lawrence and I doubt he slips. But if he does he needs to be the pick. After him non of these guys knock my socks off. This guy Fields is getting all the ink but I don't see a thing in this guy that makes me think he will be the next Mahomes or Rodgers. IMO it's not even close. Currently we have no pass rush. You can't win in the NFL like that. Our focus should be on creating a pass rush that's dominate. There's no guarantee but a good to great defense always starts with a strong pass rush. That's the only way to help defend against Rodgers. He's in our division and plans to play until he's 45. That's a long way out in football. Yes we need a young QB to develop. This year I only see a later pick as the way to go. The talent isn't there IMO. But some may develop.

CharVike wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:45 pm

Foreman44 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:40 pm Not a trash fan here. Rather have Mac Jones, not sure either one in top 15,

My guess is a couple will drop low. Like Bridgewater late, Last year Georgias QB dropped to the 4th. Personally I am for finding a young qb...

One who can sit behind cousins. Learn. Not a 7th rounder or or an undrafted free agent. They need to go QB every year til they find there man and after, the cost if starting QBs... I am waiting to see how long Mahiome’s contract kills K.C.

We picked Brad Johnson in the 9th round and he did win a Super Bowl. They can be found all over the board. Tony Romo was undrafted. We will keep Cousins. The opinion of him is all over the board here but I think he's the best since Fran. I agree that we should pick a QB if one is there that we feel can be the long term answer. This year the top guy is Trevor Lawrence and I doubt he slips. But if he does he needs to be the pick. After him non of these guys knock my socks off. This guy Fields is getting all the ink but I don't see a thing in this guy that makes me think he will be the next Mahomes or Rodgers. IMO it's not even close. Currently we have no pass rush. You can't win in the NFL like that. Our focus should be on creating a pass rush that's dominate. There's no guarantee but a good to great defense always starts with a strong pass rush. That's the only way to help defend against Rodgers. He's in our division and plans to play until he's 45. That's a long way out in football. Yes we need a young QB to develop. This year I only see a later pick as the way to go. The talent isn't there IMO. But some may develop.

Ok. I am not saying they can’t be found.But odds not likely.

Through our 60 years as a team..Going on memory
tarkenton
Culpepper
Kramer
Jackson
Teddy
Ponder

I may have missed some. But 3 of those 6 were really Kramer. Maybe 4 considered.

Johnson turned out well. But how many 6th round QBs or later outside of Johnson panned out for just us.

Yes there are those rare stars.

Johnson
Warner
Delhome
Romo
Brady 6th

Not a lot.i am sure are some others

But I can also say there are many first round QB busts with high expectations that buster. We had ponder. Jackson second round.
didn't fair well..

The odds of a first rounder should be high.

But how many firsts flop. Imagine odds of a 7th rounder or less.

Leaf... more potential than Peyton Manning.

Heath Shuler
Rick Mrer sp
Tim Couch
Jimmy clausen
Tim Tebow
Terrell Pryor
Jake locker
Ponder
Bottles ?

Just off top of my head

The odds of finding that Brady, Romo etc7 Th or later is rare

As many of the first round busts there have been . It’s where they are found

Might get lucky in 3rd round area. Dak, Wilson. Examples.

We have been going with free agent undrafted as a whole..

We keep paying Cousins zillions of cap space dollars or keep gambling on young . But going high one year and forgetting about it the next. Is going to get us finding mannions etc

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:29 pm

808vikingsfan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:02 pm I've read that the Vikings dropped 2 spots because of the win.

#12 vs #14 is pretty big IMO.

If the universe aligned, the VIkings could have had a top 10 pick with a loss. Makes me wonder about the 2 penalties that gifted the Vikings win yesterday.

IMO, the Vikings are going nowhere with Cousins. They need to trade up and get Wilson. I think he can be the next Mahomes.

Wilson will go top 5 IMHO, latest top 8.

What would the 2nd-round-pickless Vikings have to dangle to move up to #8?

The QB prospect in this upcoming draft that the Vikings might have a shot at is Kyle Trask. I think he will probably be the last QB taken of the group of top QBs in this draft, which means he's most likely to last until around pick #10, which I think is a more realistic play for Spielman.

I like Trask a lot as a prospect. He's big, solid, has a strong, accurate arm, and has done it against top-level competition. The knock on him is mainly that he's not a runner. He does have pocket presence and has shown the ability to evade the rush, and in that sense he's more like a Tom Brady. He's a bigger, stronger Tom Brady.

IF Spielman were to move up, I hope it's for Trask.

I didn't know Wilson is climbing that high.
Trask is intriguing. Slow but big, improving arm, quick release, moves and manipulates in the pocket well (Brady is the master of buying time in the pocket). Maybe like a big Ben or Andrew Luck. I'd still prefer someone who can extend plays when there is no pocket but Trask looks like he could be a good one. Frankly, I'd trade for Haskins or Garoppolo just to get rid of Cousins.

808vikingsfan wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:22 am I didn't know Wilson is climbing that high.
Trask is intriguing. Slow but big, improving arm, quick release, moves and manipulates in the pocket well (Brady is the master of buying time in the pocket). Maybe like a big Ben or Andrew Luck. I'd still prefer someone who can extend plays when there is no pocket but Trask looks like he could be a good one. Frankly, I'd trade for Haskins or Garoppolo just to get rid of Cousins.

The hype train is moving full ahead for the top QBs in this draft, and Wilson is up near the front of the train. He deserves it. He's played well and shown some big time potential. But for us Vikings fans, all that means is he's going to be long gone before the Vikings pick, and this is definitely not the draft for Spielman to go all-in and move up to get a QB.

The thing I like the most about Trask is his pocket awareness. That is not something you see in rookie QBs very much as most of them make a binary decision to either throw it or run when under some pressure. The better pro QBs have that sense and footwork necessary to avoid the rush while keeping their eyes downfield. Because he maintains good footwork, he maintains his accuracy in those situations as well. He's not lobbing up lame ducks or inaccurate under pressure.

As it stands I think there is a good chance Trask is going to move up boards as well. There are so many QB-needy teams in the league and if you look at Trask's stats and progression since he became a starter in the NFL (https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2021KTrask.php), it's getting harder to see him even lasting to #14. In general, the knock on Trask will be the same as the knock on Brady when he came out - he can't run. And that criticism will likely turn out to be as relevant to Trask as it has been to Brady.

Vikings have the #14 pick. What if Devonta Smith is sitting there at 14? Do you trade down and not take this years Heisman winner? A difference maker wide receiver and who can also return punts? Can you imagine Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen and Devonta Smith as your 1, 2 and 3 wide receivers?

Also, the Vikings WILL NOT ever draft a quarterback as long as Kirk Cousins is here. They just will not do it. The Vikings have already had a couple of good backups, but they cut them or get rid of them because they are too much competition for Cousins. One of those quarterbacks you ask was Taylor Heinicke(looked pretty good the other night against Tampa Bay).

The Vikings have to get better on both lines, linebacker, cornerback and safety depth. They definitely have to find their long term answer at kicker.

Purplepain2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:29 pm Vikings have the #14 pick. What if Devonta Smith is sitting there at 14? Do you trade down and not take this years Heisman winner? A difference maker wide receiver and who can also return punts? Can you imagine Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen and Devonta Smith as your 1, 2 and 3 wide receivers?

Also, the Vikings WILL NOT ever draft a quarterback as long as Kirk Cousins is here. They just will not do it. The Vikings have already had a couple of good backups, but they cut them or get rid of them because they are too much competition for Cousins. One of those quarterbacks you ask was Taylor Heinicke(looked pretty good the other night against Tampa Bay).

The Vikings have to get better on both lines, linebacker, cornerback and safety depth. They definitely have to find their long term answer at kicker.

I agree. You take Smith or the kid from LSU. Theilan is going to be 31 before the season starts.

Purplepain2018 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:29 pm Vikings have the #14 pick. What if Devonta Smith is sitting there at 14? Do you trade down and not take this years Heisman winner? A difference maker wide receiver and who can also return punts? Can you imagine Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen and Devonta Smith as your 1, 2 and 3 wide receivers?

Also, the Vikings WILL NOT ever draft a quarterback as long as Kirk Cousins is here. They just will not do it. The Vikings have already had a couple of good backups, but they cut them or get rid of them because they are too much competition for Cousins. One of those quarterbacks you ask was Taylor Heinicke(looked pretty good the other night against Tampa Bay).

The Vikings have to get better on both lines, linebacker, cornerback and safety depth. They definitely have to find their long term answer at kicker.

Taylor Heinicke blows. He will be back on the street again next year. Cousins competed against RG III who was considered one of the best based on his draft slot. He beat him out for the starting job. You act like he asked to be traded or released because of competition. He faced competition his entire life and seems to have done ok. He never backed away or he wouldn't be here or in the NFL. This Heinicke backs away. He doesn't compete or he'd have a starting job. Many out there to take.

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:37 pm

S197 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:56 pm
Rick is tied to Cousins' success. Even if we ignore the fact that Rick simply doesn't draft QB's when he has a starter, it doesn't make sense even if the extremely improbable event happens like a Fields at #14. He's not keeping his job if he drafts a 1st round QB and pays Cousins $45M to be a backup. That is an admission of colossal failure.

Nothing says Cousins would be the backup. Let the young QB be the backup until he's ready.

I think this would make sense on a mid-round pick but not at #14. You don't draft a guy at 14 to sit for two years while you pay someone $75M as your interim. They may do this next year when Cousins has only 1-year left (assuming no extension) but they won't do it this year.

S197 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:24 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:37 pm

Nothing says Cousins would be the backup. Let the young QB be the backup until he's ready.

I think this would make sense on a mid-round pick but not at #14. You don't draft a guy at 14 to sit for two years while you pay someone $75M as your interim. They may do this next year when Cousins has only 1-year left (assuming no extension) but they won't do it this year.

This is exactly what I've been saying.

Like it or not, the powers-that-be have decided that Kirk Cousins is their man. Forget whether you or I agree with this, or even that it's Kirk Cousins. Think of it as Frankie Franchise, BMOC, the guy the Vikings want under center until he retires. If you have your guy, do you spend draft capital on a quarterback at 14? Of course not.

Put another way, let's say Kansas City or Buffalo have the 14th pick. Would they be smart to draft a QB? Not even close. That's why pundits viewed Green Bay's drafting of Jordan Love with a massive head tilt. It made no sense then, and it makes no sense now. I mean, what if the Rams put Jalen Ramsey on Davonte Adams this weekend, and Ramsey shuts Adams down and the Packers lose. Think Packer fan won't be ripping management for drafting Love, while failing to get Rodgers another receiver in a draft rich with receivers?

Now don't twist my words. I'm not comparing Kirk Cousins to Aaron Rodgers, Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes. What I'm saying is that the situations are similar. Even if the Vikings are misguided, they see Kirk Cousins as their franchise quarterback, just as the Chiefs view Mahomes as theirs. And with that being the case, we need to stop talking about the Vikings using the 14th pick on a quarterback ... cuz it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

Every year I make the same argument. Every year it falls on deaf ears.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:34 am

S197 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:24 pm

I think this would make sense on a mid-round pick but not at #14. You don't draft a guy at 14 to sit for two years while you pay someone $75M as your interim. They may do this next year when Cousins has only 1-year left (assuming no extension) but they won't do it this year.

This is exactly what I've been saying.

Like it or not, the powers-that-be have decided that Kirk Cousins is their man. Forget whether you or I agree with this, or even that it's Kirk Cousins. Think of it as Frankie Franchise, BMOC, the guy the Vikings want under center until he retires. If you have your guy, do you spend draft capital on a quarterback at 14? Of course not.

Put another way, let's say Kansas City or Buffalo have the 14th pick. Would they be smart to draft a QB? Not even close. That's why pundits viewed Green Bay's drafting of Jordan Love with a massive head tilt. It made no sense then, and it makes no sense now. I mean, what if the Rams put Jalen Ramsey on Davonte Adams this weekend, and Ramsey shuts Adams down and the Packers lose. Think Packer fan won't be ripping management for drafting Love, while failing to get Rodgers another receiver in a draft rich with receivers?

Now don't twist my words. I'm not comparing Kirk Cousins to Aaron Rodgers, Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes. What I'm saying is that the situations are similar. Even if the Vikings are misguided, they see Kirk Cousins as their franchise quarterback, just as the Chiefs view Mahomes as theirs. And with that being the case, we need to stop talking about the Vikings using the 14th pick on a quarterback ... cuz it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

Every year I make the same argument. Every year it falls on deaf ears.

The Chiefs had an expensive QB locked up when they traded 2 1sts for Mahomes, so it is not unheard of. Would Rick ever do that though? Probably not.

What gives me hope is that 2 year extensions are unheard of for franchise QBs under the age of 35. What makes me worried is that the only reason it was 2 years is because Kirk wanted to make bank again in 2023.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:34 am And with that being the case, we need to stop talking about the Vikings using the 14th pick on a quarterback ... cuz it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

Every year I make the same argument. Every year it falls on deaf ears.

Especially with no second round pick.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:56 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:34 am
This is exactly what I've been saying.

Like it or not, the powers-that-be have decided that Kirk Cousins is their man. Forget whether you or I agree with this, or even that it's Kirk Cousins. Think of it as Frankie Franchise, BMOC, the guy the Vikings want under center until he retires. If you have your guy, do you spend draft capital on a quarterback at 14? Of course not.

Put another way, let's say Kansas City or Buffalo have the 14th pick. Would they be smart to draft a QB? Not even close. That's why pundits viewed Green Bay's drafting of Jordan Love with a massive head tilt. It made no sense then, and it makes no sense now. I mean, what if the Rams put Jalen Ramsey on Davonte Adams this weekend, and Ramsey shuts Adams down and the Packers lose. Think Packer fan won't be ripping management for drafting Love, while failing to get Rodgers another receiver in a draft rich with receivers?

Now don't twist my words. I'm not comparing Kirk Cousins to Aaron Rodgers, Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes. What I'm saying is that the situations are similar. Even if the Vikings are misguided, they see Kirk Cousins as their franchise quarterback, just as the Chiefs view Mahomes as theirs. And with that being the case, we need to stop talking about the Vikings using the 14th pick on a quarterback ... cuz it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

Every year I make the same argument. Every year it falls on deaf ears.

The Chiefs had an expensive QB locked up when they traded 2 1sts for Mahomes, so it is not unheard of. Would Rick ever do that though? Probably not.

What gives me hope is that 2 year extensions are unheard of for franchise QBs under the age of 35. What makes me worried is that the only reason it was 2 years is because Kirk wanted to make bank again in 2023.

Yes, but did the Chiefs consider Alex Smith the answer at quarterback when they made the move for Mahomes? I would argue they didn't. Smith was the perfect bridge QB. His contract wasn't nearly as difficult to unload at the back end as Cousins' is.

Here's the sobering truth. The Minnesota Vikings believe Kirk Cousins is "the man," by virtue of the way they structured both of his deals. It's almost all guaranteed, for five straight years. We can argue until we're blue in the face as to whether that was the right thing to do, but the point is that it doesn't matter because it's done. That means they won't draft a QB in the first.

So let's talk about who they might actually take.

Here's a trade proposal.

Spielman does his thing and trades back for more picks. Maybe he can coax Jacksonville, which is projected to pick at 25 with a pick acquired from the Rams, to trade their picks at 25 and 33 for our picks at 14 and 78 (one of our 3rd rounders). That's an even swap of 1,300 draft points and could be a win for both sides.

Jacksonville would move up a projected 11 spots in the first, which they could use to get either a weapon (Ja'Marr Chase, DeVonta Smith, Jaylen Waddle) or O-line protection for Trevor Lawrence. They would lose one of their two second-rounders, but would gain a third-rounder, giving them two picks in the top 14 of the third.

Meanwhile, with either 25 or 33, the Vikings could pick someone like Daviyon Nixon from Iowa to play 3-tech alongside Michael Pierce. Zimmer's defense is predicated on penetration from the inside, and Nixon is a penetration machine, with 5.5 sacks and 13.5 TFL in 8 games this season. They could also take an offensive tackle (keeping Cleveland at guard) or pick somebody like Alijah Vera-Tucker from USC, who can play either guard or tackle (projected as a guard in the NFL) and is considered an excellent pass blocker, something we desperately need on the interior.

If I were Spielman, I would not stand pat at 14. We have all the skill players we need. Edge rusher is a position of need, but Gregory Rousseau out of Miami is the top pick there, but he didn't play at all in 2020, and has only one year IN HIS LIFE as a defensive end. That was 2019, when he had an amazing 15.5 sacks, but seriously ... one year? He's also not good against the run, which will not sit well with Zimmer. It's not a good year for rush ends, so to me, this is the draft to move back.

Thoughts?

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:32 am Here's a trade proposal.

Spielman does his thing and trades back for more picks. Maybe he can coax Jacksonville, which is projected to pick at 25 with a pick acquired from the Rams, to trade their picks at 25 and 33 for our picks at 14 and 78 (one of our 3rd rounders). That's an even swap of 1,300 draft points and could be a win for both sides.

Jacksonville would move up a projected 11 spots in the first, which they could use to get either a weapon (Ja'Marr Chase, DeVonta Smith, Jaylen Waddle) or O-line protection for Trevor Lawrence. They would lose one of their two second-rounders, but would gain a third-rounder, giving them two picks in the top 14 of the third.

Meanwhile, with either 25 or 33, the Vikings could pick someone like Daviyon Nixon from Iowa to play 3-tech alongside Michael Pierce. Zimmer's defense is predicated on penetration from the inside, and Nixon is a penetration machine, with 5.5 sacks and 13.5 TFL in 8 games this season. They could also take an offensive tackle (keeping Cleveland at guard) or pick somebody like Alijah Vera-Tucker from USC, who can play either guard or tackle (projected as a guard in the NFL) and is considered an excellent pass blocker, something we desperately need on the interior.

If I were Spielman, I would not stand pat at 14. We have all the skill players we need. Edge rusher is a position of need, but Gregory Rousseau out of Miami is the top pick there, but he didn't play at all in 2020, and has only one year IN HIS LIFE as a defensive end. That was 2019, when he had an amazing 15.5 sacks, but seriously ... one year? He's also not good against the run, which will not sit well with Zimmer. It's not a good year for rush ends, so to me, this is the draft to move back.

Thoughts?

I LOVE IT!

Seriously, would be an awesome trade for the Vikings if it played out the way you described.

Here's another possible wrinkle to throw into that...

What if Kyle Trask is sitting there at #25? Do you take him?

The more I learn about the guy, the more convinced I am that he's going to have an amazing NFL career for the team that drafts him. He isn't the flashy QB prospect that many of his contemporaries are and have been coming out. But look at his stats, his development and progression, his leadership qualities, ability to read the field, move in the pocket to buy time, accuracy, etc., and Trask emerges as a guy who is exactly what you want in your starting QB at the pro level.

And he's likely to fall a bit because there are enough of the flashy QBs in this upcoming draft to push him down the board. I'd say the odds he's around at #25 are pretty small, but there is still a decent chance he'll last that long.

In your scenario, even if the Vikings go with Trask at #25 they can still acquire OL/DL help in rounds 2 and 3.

If Spielman can't trade down I'd still be happy if he took Trask at #14. Not sure Trask will even last that long but the logic of the move still makes sense to me. Yes, there are greater immediate needs perhaps along the DL and OL, but as so many on this board have said, if you identify a possible franchise QB you do what you have to do to acquire that guy. IMHO, Trask is going to be a franchise QB for someone. Might as well be the Vikings.