VIKINGS - COWBOYS MATCHUP

[S197]

This may rile some troops but I tend to think that the officials in this DAL game were, on the whole, no better or worse than most contests when all is averaged in. Sure we probably got the short end of the stick. I watched IND get called for NINE offensive holding penalties against the pack yesterday, so we were not the only ones who may have been on the short end of the stick on this particular weekend. Of course IND found a way to win.

Film shows that yes, Cousins got hit helmet to helmet during the turnover, but if you watched LV vs KC last night and watched Carr handle the SAME BLITZ that Cousins missed on that play (Cousins was surprised and coughed it up, LV play went for 16? yards), then you’ll know why I have no sympathy for Kirk on that play. Sure, DAL got away with one. Probably didn't decide the game though.

The fake punt? Seemed to me to be a penalty on us, poor execution.

Harry’s hit? In slo-mo replay not a penalty, but in real-time it certainly looked helmet to helmet. Maybe they had bias against Harry due to history, but I can’t castigate the refs for the call. When they watch film they will know they were wrong, but they won't beat themselves up over it, it was too close. Tough break for us but I don't think anyone in stripes was “out to get us”.

It would have been great if the refs were invisible, but they were not the ones manhandling us at the LOS all game long.

We had the ball at home with what, 1:30 left and needing a FG - and promptly fizzled like a wet firecracker. That was not on the refs. That was 100% on our coaches and players. Full blame for the loss should go right there on that non-drive. Home plus 90 seconds plus decent field position plus a $30M QB should result in a tie (at minimum) 99% of the time in the non-Jets NFL.

I'd have to agree. In aggregate, the questionable calls favored the Cowboys, no doubt. But I think fans in general tend to hold on to the bad calls that go against you and shrug off the ones that are favorable. As an example, Foles took a hit to the head that very easily could have been called but it wasn't. That could have changed the outcome of the game but it didn't get much more than a "phew, dodged a bullet" type reaction here.

The refs didn't give Pollard a free pass to the endzone, or allow Cooper to make a crucial 4th down catch, or have an offense that was unable to convert a single first down on that final drive. In the end, it was lack of execution that lost the game.

[chicagopurple]

Exactly.....they are not playoff winning material....I guess for me, after 50 years of being a fan and supporter, driving Chicago to MN for games......dealing with being surrounded by Bears fans while my team screws the pooch.....and seeing no light at the end of the tunnel at his point with this coach, QB, and Gm.....it sucks....being an average team is nothing to cheer about or get fired up for anymore, and we struggle to just be average.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Exactly.....they are not playoff winning material....I guess for me, after 50 years of being a fan and supporter, driving Chicago to MN for games......dealing with being surrounded by Bears fans while my team screws the pooch.....and seeing no light at the end of the tunnel at his point with this coach, QB, and Gm.....it sucks....being an average team is nothing to cheer about or get fired up for anymore, and we struggle to just be average.

Nobody on here is cheering to be average. Nobody is like "yeah lets go 8-8!!" I dont care if you've been a fan for 50 years or for 50 days, it's not fun at times, we all know that. You have a heart attack week after week, we all know that. You are let down more often than not, we all know that. But regardless your favorite team is still playing on Sundays. Nobody expected the Vikings to go into this season winning a Super Bowl with what they lost in the offseason and then adding guys like Hunter, Pierce and Barr on top of that.

But yeah, guys are going to cheer at the fact that Dalvin is blowing the league up, Jefferson is the top rookie WR in the NFL, Thielen is catching a crazy amount of TDs, our rookies like Cleveland, Gladney, Dantzler, Wonnum, etc are showing a ton of potential. Guys are going to get excited when we win 3 straight divisional games (2 being on the road).

So I guess you can pick and choose who or what you cheer for but I personally think this has been an excellent draft class so far, I've liked the improvement in the OL and I like what our offense is doing. This defense is going to get a lot of key players back next year. I personally like where this team is heading. I dont sit here and act like the sky is falling and everything has to be blown up because the team lost a game

[J. Kapp 11]

Exactly.....they are not playoff winning material....I guess for me, after 50 years of being a fan and supporter, driving Chicago to MN for games......dealing with being surrounded by Bears fans while my team screws the pooch.....and seeing no light at the end of the tunnel at his point with this coach, QB, and Gm.....it sucks....being an average team is nothing to cheer about or get fired up for anymore, and we struggle to just be average.

Nobody on here is cheering to be average. Nobody is like "yeah lets go 8-8!!" I dont care if you've been a fan for 50 years or for 50 days, it's not fun at times, we all know that. You have a heart attack week after week, we all know that. You are let down more often than not, we all know that. But regardless your favorite team is still playing on Sundays. Nobody expected the Vikings to go into this season winning a Super Bowl with what they lost in the offseason and then adding guys like Hunter, Pierce and Barr on top of that.

But yeah, guys are going to cheer at the fact that Dalvin is blowing the league up, Jefferson is the top rookie WR in the NFL, Thielen is catching a crazy amount of TDs, our rookies like Cleveland, Gladney, Dantzler, Wonnum, etc are showing a ton of potential. Guys are going to get excited when we win 3 straight divisional games (2 being on the road).

So I guess you can pick and choose who or what you cheer for but I personally think this has been an excellent draft class so far, I've liked the improvement in the OL and I like what our offense is doing. This defense is going to get a lot of key players back next year. I personally like where this team is heading. I dont sit here and act like the sky is falling and everything has to be blown up because the team lost a game

Couldn't agree more. I'm on board with everything you're saying.

For me personally, this has been a learning year, from before the season to now.

When we acquired Michael Pierce, I cheered the move. I knew that Linval was slowing down, and I'd seen a stat that when Pierce was not in the lineup for Baltimore (he had a minor injury that caused him to miss a game or two), the yards-per-carry against the Ravens went up by nearly a full yard. That told me Pierce is really stout in the middle against the run. Since we had really struggled against the run last year, especially in the divisional playoff game against SF, I thought this was a good move.

I knew that with the Vikings losing Rhodes, Waynes and Alexander, there would be some growing pains. But I believed Zimmer could coach up the rookies and scheme them to be able to hold their own. Obviously that's still a work in progress.

During camp, we had no idea we'd be missing Hunter or Barr. So I thought our pass rush would still be solid. Then we traded for Ngakoue. The thought of Hunter and Ngakoue together on the field at the same time had me conjuring up dreams of Chris Doleman and Keith Millard.

And even though we lost Stefon Diggs, I believed our offense would be excellent.

Then Covid hit. And Barr's injury. And Hunter's injury. Suddenly we start the season 0-3. Then fall to 1-5. And I admit, I blamed Zimmer, Spielman, Cousins ... whomever. I thought we were among the 2 or 3 worst teams in the league because at the time, we were playing like it.

But here's what I didn't take into account.

With all the craziness of Covid, all the new players, the fifth OC Cousins has had in 4 years, the lack of OTAs, the lack of preseason ... we had little chance of starting well. It sounds like an excuse, but really it's not.

Compare our situation to the Packers. They had everybody back. Same coaching staff, same players. All they had to do was pick up where they left off last year. Missing practice time and preseason games didn't hurt them that much.

Meanwhile, we had lost seven starters on defense. Zimmer was trying to play the same defense he had when Rhodes, Alexander, Barr, Hunter, Linval, et. al. were out there. And it didn't work. It was, by his own admission, a tactical error. So he started playing a lot more Cover-2 than he normally wants to play, helping out his rookies on the corners. The Vikings went into their bye and made some adjustments that have worked wonders. The thing is, if we'd had OTAs and a preseason, Zimmer would have realized he needed to make these changes, and he would have made them a lot sooner.

One of the biggest adjustments we made was on offense. That's when we finally realized that while Ezra Cleveland was drafted as a tackle, he's just a helluva football player who needed to be in the lineup. So we started him at guard. And not coincidentally, Dalvin Cook has gone crazy ever since. Our line has been excellent. Not just good, but excellent. Even against the Bears, we put up nearly 400 yards of total offense.

But the truth is, it still comes down to defense. Yes, I know this is an offensive league. The rules favor the offense. The game has become high scoring. But that means it's more important than ever to have a solid defense.

Look at Kansas City a couple years ago. They were phenomenal on offense, but all they could do was outscore people. Remember when they lost 54-51 to the Rams? It seemed obvious to me that when they got to the playoffs and faced a team that could slow them down, like a New England, they'd lose. And they did. Now flip the script to 2019. KC made the effort to improve defensively, and they did. Nobody was mistaking them for the '69 Vikings, but they improved enough to be able to slow the opposition down. That was all they needed to win a Super Bowl. Offense didn't do it. Defense did.

Bottom line: There's nothing wrong with having a good defense in this Era of Offense. So I don't really have a problem with Mike Zimmer as HC, especially with Gary Kubiak as his OC. Why? Because Zimmer trusts Kubiak, so he stays the hell out of the way. That's helped our offense, which has been really good for most of this year, save for the Atlanta game. Now that Justin Jefferson is balling out, and the offensive line is playing solid football, I can't see any reason the offense can't get even better.

Meanwhile, all these young guys on defense are gaining experience. We're seeing growth. They still get burned, but they're getting better. The problem is that we fans constantly compare them to the the 2017 Vikings. We've got to be realistic and give these guys time to grow.

That's where next year comes in. We need Hunter back. I know some of you don't think so, but we need Barr back. With Kendricks, Barr AND Wilson, we'd have a monster LB corps. We need Michael Pierce in the middle of that line, so guys like Ezekiel Elliott don't get their first 100-yard game of the season against us. With the way this offense is capable of playing, we just need to get the defense back to being good. Not great, but good.

So what did I learn?

I learned to look a little deeper at the situation at hand. Yes, we had a terrible start, but there were legitimate reasons for it. For the first time in a long time, I became reactionary. And I admit I was wrong. So now I plan to keep the faith and continue cheering on the Vikings, no matter what.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

[Bowhunting Viking]

Nobody on here is cheering to be average. Nobody is like "yeah lets go 8-8!!" I dont care if you've been a fan for 50 years or for 50 days, it's not fun at times, we all know that. You have a heart attack week after week, we all know that. You are let down more often than not, we all know that. But regardless your favorite team is still playing on Sundays. Nobody expected the Vikings to go into this season winning a Super Bowl with what they lost in the offseason and then adding guys like Hunter, Pierce and Barr on top of that.

But yeah, guys are going to cheer at the fact that Dalvin is blowing the league up, Jefferson is the top rookie WR in the NFL, Thielen is catching a crazy amount of TDs, our rookies like Cleveland, Gladney, Dantzler, Wonnum, etc are showing a ton of potential. Guys are going to get excited when we win 3 straight divisional games (2 being on the road).

So I guess you can pick and choose who or what you cheer for but I personally think this has been an excellent draft class so far, I've liked the improvement in the OL and I like what our offense is doing. This defense is going to get a lot of key players back next year. I personally like where this team is heading. I dont sit here and act like the sky is falling and everything has to be blown up because the team lost a game

Couldn't agree more. I'm on board with everything you're saying.

For me personally, this has been a learning year, from before the season to now.

When we acquired Michael Pierce, I cheered the move. I knew that Linval was slowing down, and I'd seen a stat that when Pierce was not in the lineup for Baltimore (he had a minor injury that caused him to miss a game or two), the yards-per-carry against the Ravens went up by nearly a full yard. That told me Pierce is really stout in the middle against the run. Since we had really struggled against the run last year, especially in the divisional playoff game against SF, I thought this was a good move.

I knew that with the Vikings losing Rhodes, Waynes and Alexander, there would be some growing pains. But I believed Zimmer could coach up the rookies and scheme them to be able to hold their own. Obviously that's still a work in progress.

During camp, we had no idea we'd be missing Hunter or Barr. So I thought our pass rush would still be solid. Then we traded for Ngakoue. The thought of Hunter and Ngakoue together on the field at the same time had me conjuring up dreams of Chris Doleman and Keith Millard.

And even though we lost Stefon Diggs, I believed our offense would be excellent.

Then Covid hit. And Barr's injury. And Hunter's injury. Suddenly we start the season 0-3. Then fall to 1-5. And I admit, I blamed Zimmer, Spielman, Cousins ... whomever. I thought we were among the 2 or 3 worst teams in the league because at the time, we were playing like it.

But here's what I didn't take into account.

With all the craziness of Covid, all the new players, the fifth OC Cousins has had in 4 years, the lack of OTAs, the lack of preseason ... we had little chance of starting well. It sounds like an excuse, but really it's not.

Compare our situation to the Packers. They had everybody back. Same coaching staff, same players. All they had to do was pick up where they left off last year. Missing practice time and preseason games didn't hurt them that much.

Meanwhile, we had lost seven starters on defense. Zimmer was trying to play the same defense he had when Rhodes, Alexander, Barr, Hunter, Linval, et. al. were out there. And it didn't work. It was, by his own admission, a tactical error. So he started playing a lot more Cover-2 than he normally wants to play, helping out his rookies on the corners. The Vikings went into their bye and made some adjustments that have worked wonders. The thing is, if we'd had OTAs and a preseason, Zimmer would have realized he needed to make these changes, and he would have made them a lot sooner.

One of the biggest adjustments we made was on offense. That's when we finally realized that while Ezra Cleveland was drafted as a tackle, he's just a helluva football player who needed to be in the lineup. So we started him at guard. And not coincidentally, Dalvin Cook has gone crazy ever since. Our line has been excellent. Not just good, but excellent. Even against the Bears, we put up nearly 400 yards of total offense.

But the truth is, it still comes down to defense. Yes, I know this is an offensive league. The rules favor the offense. The game has become high scoring. But that means it's more important than ever to have a solid defense.

Look at Kansas City a couple years ago. They were phenomenal on offense, but all they could do was outscore people. Remember when they lost 54-51 to the Rams? It seemed obvious to me that when they got to the playoffs and faced a team that could slow them down, like a New England, they'd lose. And they did. Now flip the script to 2019. KC made the effort to improve defensively, and they did. Nobody was mistaking them for the '69 Vikings, but they improved enough to be able to slow the opposition down. That was all they needed to win a Super Bowl. Offense didn't do it. Defense did.

Bottom line: There's nothing wrong with having a good defense in this Era of Offense. So I don't really have a problem with Mike Zimmer as HC, especially with Gary Kubiak as his OC. Why? Because Zimmer trusts Kubiak, so he stays the hell out of the way. That's helped our offense, which has been really good for most of this year, save for the Atlanta game. Now that Justin Jefferson is balling out, and the offensive line is playing solid football, I can't see any reason the offense can't get even better.

Meanwhile, all these young guys on defense are gaining experience. We're seeing growth. They still get burned, but they're getting better. The problem is that we fans constantly compare them to the the 2017 Vikings. We've got to be realistic and give these guys time to grow.

That's where next year comes in. We need Hunter back. I know some of you don't think so, but we need Barr back. With Kendricks, Barr AND Wilson, we'd have a monster LB corps. We need Michael Pierce in the middle of that line, so guys like Ezekiel Elliott don't get their first 100-yard game of the season against us. With the way this offense is capable of playing, we just need to get the defense back to being good. Not great, but good.

So what did I learn?

I learned to look a little deeper at the situation at hand. Yes, we had a terrible start, but there were legitimate reasons for it. For the first time in a long time, I became reactionary. And I admit I was wrong. So now I plan to keep the faith and continue cheering on the Vikings, no matter what.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

PHP and Kapp..... I don't have to add a single word!

[Maelstrom88]

How was that a penalty on Smith but not when Cook got crunched? That was such bs!

[Maelstrom88]

Also, Chris Jones should be cut for that pathetic missed tackle. Didn't even look like he tried.

[VikingLord]

How was that a penalty on Smith but not when Cook got crunched? That was such bs!

Good question as the hits seemed similar.

The main differences between the two hits were the timing and the body level at which the hit was delivered. On the Smith hit, I think it was Lamb didn't catch the ball and Smith delivered the hit just as the ball arrived and he hit Lamb fairly high on his body.

In the Cook case, Cook had secured the ball and started to turn up the field when he was hit, and the hit was ball-level instead of chest-level.

Both hits were brutal, however. Not cheap hits in either case IMHO, but both hard and heavy.

Ironically, the hit that was called a penalty didn't result in even a minor injury delay for either player involved, while the hit that wasn't called a penalty resulted in both players involved going to the ground for some time.

But I agree with you - both hits probably were penalties if either was, at least in terms of how that penalty has been called in recent years. Cook was every bit as defenseless as Lamb, and the result of either hit could have been (and in Cook's case, actually was) an injured receiver.

[Frozen Rope]

Couldn't agree more. I'm on board with everything you're saying.

For me personally, this has been a learning year, from before the season to now.

When we acquired Michael Pierce, I cheered the move. I knew that Linval was slowing down, and I'd seen a stat that when Pierce was not in the lineup for Baltimore (he had a minor injury that caused him to miss a game or two), the yards-per-carry against the Ravens went up by nearly a full yard. That told me Pierce is really stout in the middle against the run. Since we had really struggled against the run last year, especially in the divisional playoff game against SF, I thought this was a good move.

I knew that with the Vikings losing Rhodes, Waynes and Alexander, there would be some growing pains. But I believed Zimmer could coach up the rookies and scheme them to be able to hold their own. Obviously that's still a work in progress.

During camp, we had no idea we'd be missing Hunter or Barr. So I thought our pass rush would still be solid. Then we traded for Ngakoue. The thought of Hunter and Ngakoue together on the field at the same time had me conjuring up dreams of Chris Doleman and Keith Millard.

And even though we lost Stefon Diggs, I believed our offense would be excellent.

Then Covid hit. And Barr's injury. And Hunter's injury. Suddenly we start the season 0-3. Then fall to 1-5. And I admit, I blamed Zimmer, Spielman, Cousins ... whomever. I thought we were among the 2 or 3 worst teams in the league because at the time, we were playing like it.

But here's what I didn't take into account.

With all the craziness of Covid, all the new players, the fifth OC Cousins has had in 4 years, the lack of OTAs, the lack of preseason ... we had little chance of starting well. It sounds like an excuse, but really it's not.

Compare our situation to the Packers. They had everybody back. Same coaching staff, same players. All they had to do was pick up where they left off last year. Missing practice time and preseason games didn't hurt them that much.

Meanwhile, we had lost seven starters on defense. Zimmer was trying to play the same defense he had when Rhodes, Alexander, Barr, Hunter, Linval, et. al. were out there. And it didn't work. It was, by his own admission, a tactical error. So he started playing a lot more Cover-2 than he normally wants to play, helping out his rookies on the corners. The Vikings went into their bye and made some adjustments that have worked wonders. The thing is, if we'd had OTAs and a preseason, Zimmer would have realized he needed to make these changes, and he would have made them a lot sooner.

One of the biggest adjustments we made was on offense. That's when we finally realized that while Ezra Cleveland was drafted as a tackle, he's just a helluva football player who needed to be in the lineup. So we started him at guard. And not coincidentally, Dalvin Cook has gone crazy ever since. Our line has been excellent. Not just good, but excellent. Even against the Bears, we put up nearly 400 yards of total offense.

But the truth is, it still comes down to defense. Yes, I know this is an offensive league. The rules favor the offense. The game has become high scoring. But that means it's more important than ever to have a solid defense.

Look at Kansas City a couple years ago. They were phenomenal on offense, but all they could do was outscore people. Remember when they lost 54-51 to the Rams? It seemed obvious to me that when they got to the playoffs and faced a team that could slow them down, like a New England, they'd lose. And they did. Now flip the script to 2019. KC made the effort to improve defensively, and they did. Nobody was mistaking them for the '69 Vikings, but they improved enough to be able to slow the opposition down. That was all they needed to win a Super Bowl. Offense didn't do it. Defense did.

Bottom line: There's nothing wrong with having a good defense in this Era of Offense. So I don't really have a problem with Mike Zimmer as HC, especially with Gary Kubiak as his OC. Why? Because Zimmer trusts Kubiak, so he stays the hell out of the way. That's helped our offense, which has been really good for most of this year, save for the Atlanta game. Now that Justin Jefferson is balling out, and the offensive line is playing solid football, I can't see any reason the offense can't get even better.

Meanwhile, all these young guys on defense are gaining experience. We're seeing growth. They still get burned, but they're getting better. The problem is that we fans constantly compare them to the the 2017 Vikings. We've got to be realistic and give these guys time to grow.

That's where next year comes in. We need Hunter back. I know some of you don't think so, but we need Barr back. With Kendricks, Barr AND Wilson, we'd have a monster LB corps. We need Michael Pierce in the middle of that line, so guys like Ezekiel Elliott don't get their first 100-yard game of the season against us. With the way this offense is capable of playing, we just need to get the defense back to being good. Not great, but good.

So what did I learn?

I learned to look a little deeper at the situation at hand. Yes, we had a terrible start, but there were legitimate reasons for it. For the first time in a long time, I became reactionary. And I admit I was wrong. So now I plan to keep the faith and continue cheering on the Vikings, no matter what.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

PHP and Kapp..... I don't have to add a single word!

Great summary guys. I appreciate you all. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving everyone!

[Pondering Her Percy]

PHP and Kapp..... I don't have to add a single word!

Great summary guys. I appreciate you all. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving everyone!

You too brother, SKOL!

[Pondering Her Percy]

Couldn't agree more. I'm on board with everything you're saying.

For me personally, this has been a learning year, from before the season to now.

When we acquired Michael Pierce, I cheered the move. I knew that Linval was slowing down, and I'd seen a stat that when Pierce was not in the lineup for Baltimore (he had a minor injury that caused him to miss a game or two), the yards-per-carry against the Ravens went up by nearly a full yard. That told me Pierce is really stout in the middle against the run. Since we had really struggled against the run last year, especially in the divisional playoff game against SF, I thought this was a good move.

I knew that with the Vikings losing Rhodes, Waynes and Alexander, there would be some growing pains. But I believed Zimmer could coach up the rookies and scheme them to be able to hold their own. Obviously that's still a work in progress.

During camp, we had no idea we'd be missing Hunter or Barr. So I thought our pass rush would still be solid. Then we traded for Ngakoue. The thought of Hunter and Ngakoue together on the field at the same time had me conjuring up dreams of Chris Doleman and Keith Millard.

And even though we lost Stefon Diggs, I believed our offense would be excellent.

Then Covid hit. And Barr's injury. And Hunter's injury. Suddenly we start the season 0-3. Then fall to 1-5. And I admit, I blamed Zimmer, Spielman, Cousins ... whomever. I thought we were among the 2 or 3 worst teams in the league because at the time, we were playing like it.

But here's what I didn't take into account.

With all the craziness of Covid, all the new players, the fifth OC Cousins has had in 4 years, the lack of OTAs, the lack of preseason ... we had little chance of starting well. It sounds like an excuse, but really it's not.

Compare our situation to the Packers. They had everybody back. Same coaching staff, same players. All they had to do was pick up where they left off last year. Missing practice time and preseason games didn't hurt them that much.

Meanwhile, we had lost seven starters on defense. Zimmer was trying to play the same defense he had when Rhodes, Alexander, Barr, Hunter, Linval, et. al. were out there. And it didn't work. It was, by his own admission, a tactical error. So he started playing a lot more Cover-2 than he normally wants to play, helping out his rookies on the corners. The Vikings went into their bye and made some adjustments that have worked wonders. The thing is, if we'd had OTAs and a preseason, Zimmer would have realized he needed to make these changes, and he would have made them a lot sooner.

One of the biggest adjustments we made was on offense. That's when we finally realized that while Ezra Cleveland was drafted as a tackle, he's just a helluva football player who needed to be in the lineup. So we started him at guard. And not coincidentally, Dalvin Cook has gone crazy ever since. Our line has been excellent. Not just good, but excellent. Even against the Bears, we put up nearly 400 yards of total offense.

But the truth is, it still comes down to defense. Yes, I know this is an offensive league. The rules favor the offense. The game has become high scoring. But that means it's more important than ever to have a solid defense.

Look at Kansas City a couple years ago. They were phenomenal on offense, but all they could do was outscore people. Remember when they lost 54-51 to the Rams? It seemed obvious to me that when they got to the playoffs and faced a team that could slow them down, like a New England, they'd lose. And they did. Now flip the script to 2019. KC made the effort to improve defensively, and they did. Nobody was mistaking them for the '69 Vikings, but they improved enough to be able to slow the opposition down. That was all they needed to win a Super Bowl. Offense didn't do it. Defense did.

Bottom line: There's nothing wrong with having a good defense in this Era of Offense. So I don't really have a problem with Mike Zimmer as HC, especially with Gary Kubiak as his OC. Why? Because Zimmer trusts Kubiak, so he stays the hell out of the way. That's helped our offense, which has been really good for most of this year, save for the Atlanta game. Now that Justin Jefferson is balling out, and the offensive line is playing solid football, I can't see any reason the offense can't get even better.

Meanwhile, all these young guys on defense are gaining experience. We're seeing growth. They still get burned, but they're getting better. The problem is that we fans constantly compare them to the the 2017 Vikings. We've got to be realistic and give these guys time to grow.

That's where next year comes in. We need Hunter back. I know some of you don't think so, but we need Barr back. With Kendricks, Barr AND Wilson, we'd have a monster LB corps. We need Michael Pierce in the middle of that line, so guys like Ezekiel Elliott don't get their first 100-yard game of the season against us. With the way this offense is capable of playing, we just need to get the defense back to being good. Not great, but good.

So what did I learn?

I learned to look a little deeper at the situation at hand. Yes, we had a terrible start, but there were legitimate reasons for it. For the first time in a long time, I became reactionary. And I admit I was wrong. So now I plan to keep the faith and continue cheering on the Vikings, no matter what.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Excellent post Kapp. The biggest thing that stood out to me that you said.....The problem is that we fans constantly compare them to the the 2017 Vikings.

100% yes. That defense is a defense I'm not sure we'll ever see again for a long time. Think about the greatest defense of all time, the 85 Bears, the 2000 Ravens, etc. Notice how they arent called the 83-87 Bears or 1998-2002 Ravens? These teams were able to still sustain some good defense before or after their elite year but having a consistent #1 overall defense year after year is extremely hard to do. I'm not sure it's even possible to be honest due to so many moving parts, injuries, etc. The 2017 defense was great and clearly our offense drastically benefited from that, especially our QB but it just isnt a realistic option year after year to have THAT good of a defense. It's possible to sustain a "good" defense but not elite. Maybe you can get 2 years of elite play if you're lucky

And to another point you made, yeah the Vikings were playing like crap early on but as I said back then and I will say again, this team simply has too much talent on it to tank or come remotely close to the #1 pick. I said all offseason, this team isnt rebuilding, it's reloading and I still stand by that. A team that is rebuilding knocks their roster down to nothing like the Jets. This team is MILES better than the Jets even on our worst day. It's just that when you reload your roster like this, you have to expect bumpy roads. Sure it sucks that we will probably finish like 8-8 and end up middle of the pack draft wise but at the same time, this team has lost 3 games by 3 points or less. With a DEPLETED defense. If the outcome of those games were different, we'd be contending for 1st place in the entire NFC. That's promising if you ask me. This team has some fight in them.

I mentioned a few weeks ago the most underrated player that has helped this team improve....Ezra Cleveland. Notice how much better the interior pass blocking is. Cousins doesnt have a swinging door at RG anymore and he's actually given time now. I will say, from Bradbury over to the right (Cleveland and O'Neill), this OL looks EXTREMELY promising. Reiff wont be here much longer but has played well. Dozier is the weak link but still tolerable for now. But there is a reason the Vikings have been on somewhat of a heater the last 4 weeks. Other players have contributed their share for sure, but Ezra Cleveland, IMO, has been the biggest reason. You went from a swinging door horror show in Samia who was literally the worst graded offensive player in football to a young, athletic guard with a bright future. That's like going from being homeless and living on the street to hitting the lottery and living in a $10 million mansion.

And one more point, Danielle Hunter, Pierce and Barr. Over the last year or two I've said one thing about Hunter. Not only is he our best DE. Not only is he our best defensive player. IMO, I think Danielle Hunter is the best overall player on this team. And there are some good ones (Kendricks, our WRs, Cook). But I honestly believe that with Hunter. Hunter is literally elite in every category you could think of. Size, arms, speed, power, pass rushing, run defense, etc. Think about that. How many players could you say are that good in every category of their position. Kendricks and Cook are up there. The WRs arent far off. That is like the Bears losing Mack, or the Rams losing Donald IMO. The media and the average football fan still dont know who Hunter is. Many still call him Danielle (the chick version). He's gone soooo under the radar for the past 5 years. He's getting more well known, but still doesnt draw the recognition that guys like JJ Watt does who is past his prime and nowhere near Hunters talent level if you ask me.

As for Barr, some hate on him and want Wilson but Wilsons run defense is also extremely bad. Barr is the defensive captain, a leader and play caller. That's not easily replaceable.

As for Pierce, just a huge bummer losing him to COVID opt out. One thing that worries me with him, given he is such a large man and sat out of football for a year, will we be getting what we paid for come 2021? I've been constantly thinking that lately. I sure hope so. But yeah Johnson and Stephen just dont cut it and probably wont ever cut it. I wouldnt be surprised one bit if that's where we look in round 1 come April....3 technique.

Either way, excellent post Kapp, sorry for my lengthy babbling one lol. Have a good Thanksgiving brother. SKOL

[VikingPaul73]

Wow Kapp, that post actually made me feel optimistic!! That's quite an accomplishment, THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!

my only comment is that it is disappointing that Zim waited until the bye week to make his adjustments. The roster turnover, the injuries/opt out, abbreviated offseason, no preseason, etc. were all out of Zimmer's control. But he waited until they were 1-5 before making adjustments to his defense. He started Elf, then went to Samia when Elf went down and we had to watch that debacle for a couple of weeks until he was forced to go with Ezra. Why is he so stubborn and set in his ways that it takes a 1-5 start before he tweaks his "system" and finally starts a 2nd round rookie??

[VikingPaul73]

As for Pierce, just a huge bummer losing him to COVID opt out. One thing that worries me with him, given he is such a large man and sat out of football for a year, will we be getting what we paid for come 2021? I've been constantly thinking that lately. I sure hope so. But yeah Johnson and Stephen just dont cut it and probably wont ever cut it. I wouldnt be surprised one bit if that's where we look in round 1 come April....3 technique.

I was thinking the same thing, but I looked up DT in the 2021 draft, and it doesn't look like there are many (any?) bonafide 1st Round DTs this year.

Do any of the draft gurus on the board have a different take? I just checked a single source for a few minutes, so don't take above statement too seriously

[J. Kapp 11]

Couldn't agree more. I'm on board with everything you're saying.

For me personally, this has been a learning year, from before the season to now.

When we acquired Michael Pierce, I cheered the move. I knew that Linval was slowing down, and I'd seen a stat that when Pierce was not in the lineup for Baltimore (he had a minor injury that caused him to miss a game or two), the yards-per-carry against the Ravens went up by nearly a full yard. That told me Pierce is really stout in the middle against the run. Since we had really struggled against the run last year, especially in the divisional playoff game against SF, I thought this was a good move.

I knew that with the Vikings losing Rhodes, Waynes and Alexander, there would be some growing pains. But I believed Zimmer could coach up the rookies and scheme them to be able to hold their own. Obviously that's still a work in progress.

During camp, we had no idea we'd be missing Hunter or Barr. So I thought our pass rush would still be solid. Then we traded for Ngakoue. The thought of Hunter and Ngakoue together on the field at the same time had me conjuring up dreams of Chris Doleman and Keith Millard.

And even though we lost Stefon Diggs, I believed our offense would be excellent.

Then Covid hit. And Barr's injury. And Hunter's injury. Suddenly we start the season 0-3. Then fall to 1-5. And I admit, I blamed Zimmer, Spielman, Cousins ... whomever. I thought we were among the 2 or 3 worst teams in the league because at the time, we were playing like it.

But here's what I didn't take into account.

With all the craziness of Covid, all the new players, the fifth OC Cousins has had in 4 years, the lack of OTAs, the lack of preseason ... we had little chance of starting well. It sounds like an excuse, but really it's not.

Compare our situation to the Packers. They had everybody back. Same coaching staff, same players. All they had to do was pick up where they left off last year. Missing practice time and preseason games didn't hurt them that much.

Meanwhile, we had lost seven starters on defense. Zimmer was trying to play the same defense he had when Rhodes, Alexander, Barr, Hunter, Linval, et. al. were out there. And it didn't work. It was, by his own admission, a tactical error. So he started playing a lot more Cover-2 than he normally wants to play, helping out his rookies on the corners. The Vikings went into their bye and made some adjustments that have worked wonders. The thing is, if we'd had OTAs and a preseason, Zimmer would have realized he needed to make these changes, and he would have made them a lot sooner.

One of the biggest adjustments we made was on offense. That's when we finally realized that while Ezra Cleveland was drafted as a tackle, he's just a helluva football player who needed to be in the lineup. So we started him at guard. And not coincidentally, Dalvin Cook has gone crazy ever since. Our line has been excellent. Not just good, but excellent. Even against the Bears, we put up nearly 400 yards of total offense.

But the truth is, it still comes down to defense. Yes, I know this is an offensive league. The rules favor the offense. The game has become high scoring. But that means it's more important than ever to have a solid defense.

Look at Kansas City a couple years ago. They were phenomenal on offense, but all they could do was outscore people. Remember when they lost 54-51 to the Rams? It seemed obvious to me that when they got to the playoffs and faced a team that could slow them down, like a New England, they'd lose. And they did. Now flip the script to 2019. KC made the effort to improve defensively, and they did. Nobody was mistaking them for the '69 Vikings, but they improved enough to be able to slow the opposition down. That was all they needed to win a Super Bowl. Offense didn't do it. Defense did.

Bottom line: There's nothing wrong with having a good defense in this Era of Offense. So I don't really have a problem with Mike Zimmer as HC, especially with Gary Kubiak as his OC. Why? Because Zimmer trusts Kubiak, so he stays the hell out of the way. That's helped our offense, which has been really good for most of this year, save for the Atlanta game. Now that Justin Jefferson is balling out, and the offensive line is playing solid football, I can't see any reason the offense can't get even better.

Meanwhile, all these young guys on defense are gaining experience. We're seeing growth. They still get burned, but they're getting better. The problem is that we fans constantly compare them to the the 2017 Vikings. We've got to be realistic and give these guys time to grow.

That's where next year comes in. We need Hunter back. I know some of you don't think so, but we need Barr back. With Kendricks, Barr AND Wilson, we'd have a monster LB corps. We need Michael Pierce in the middle of that line, so guys like Ezekiel Elliott don't get their first 100-yard game of the season against us. With the way this offense is capable of playing, we just need to get the defense back to being good. Not great, but good.

So what did I learn?

I learned to look a little deeper at the situation at hand. Yes, we had a terrible start, but there were legitimate reasons for it. For the first time in a long time, I became reactionary. And I admit I was wrong. So now I plan to keep the faith and continue cheering on the Vikings, no matter what.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Excellent post Kapp. The biggest thing that stood out to me that you said.....The problem is that we fans constantly compare them to the the 2017 Vikings.

100% yes. That defense is a defense I'm not sure we'll ever see again for a long time. Think about the greatest defense of all time, the 85 Bears, the 2000 Ravens, etc. Notice how they arent called the 83-87 Bears or 1998-2002 Ravens? These teams were able to still sustain some good defense before or after their elite year but having a consistent #1 overall defense year after year is extremely hard to do. I'm not sure it's even possible to be honest due to so many moving parts, injuries, etc. The 2017 defense was great and clearly our offense drastically benefited from that, especially our QB but it just isnt a realistic option year after year to have THAT good of a defense. It's possible to sustain a "good" defense but not elite. Maybe you can get 2 years of elite play if you're lucky

And to another point you made, yeah the Vikings were playing like crap early on but as I said back then and I will say again, this team simply has too much talent on it to tank or come remotely close to the #1 pick. I said all offseason, this team isnt rebuilding, it's reloading and I still stand by that. A team that is rebuilding knocks their roster down to nothing like the Jets. This team is MILES better than the Jets even on our worst day. It's just that when you reload your roster like this, you have to expect bumpy roads. Sure it sucks that we will probably finish like 8-8 and end up middle of the pack draft wise but at the same time, this team has lost 3 games by 3 points or less. With a DEPLETED defense. If the outcome of those games were different, we'd be contending for 1st place in the entire NFC. That's promising if you ask me. This team has some fight in them.

I mentioned a few weeks ago the most underrated player that has helped this team improve....Ezra Cleveland. Notice how much better the interior pass blocking is. Cousins doesnt have a swinging door at RG anymore and he's actually given time now. I will say, from Bradbury over to the right (Cleveland and O'Neill), this OL looks EXTREMELY promising. Reiff wont be here much longer but has played well. Dozier is the weak link but still tolerable for now. But there is a reason the Vikings have been on somewhat of a heater the last 4 weeks. Other players have contributed their share for sure, but Ezra Cleveland, IMO, has been the biggest reason. You went from a swinging door horror show in Samia who was literally the worst graded offensive player in football to a young, athletic guard with a bright future. That's like going from being homeless and living on the street to hitting the lottery and living in a $10 million mansion.

And one more point, Danielle Hunter, Pierce and Barr. Over the last year or two I've said one thing about Hunter. Not only is he our best DE. Not only is he our best defensive player. IMO, I think Danielle Hunter is the best overall player on this team. And there are some good ones (Kendricks, our WRs, Cook). But I honestly believe that with Hunter. Hunter is literally elite in every category you could think of. Size, arms, speed, power, pass rushing, run defense, etc. Think about that. How many players could you say are that good in every category of their position. Kendricks and Cook are up there. The WRs arent far off. That is like the Bears losing Mack, or the Rams losing Donald IMO. The media and the average football fan still dont know who Hunter is. Many still call him Danielle (the chick version). He's gone soooo under the radar for the past 5 years. He's getting more well known, but still doesnt draw the recognition that guys like JJ Watt does who is past his prime and nowhere near Hunters talent level if you ask me.

As for Barr, some hate on him and want Wilson but Wilsons run defense is also extremely bad. Barr is the defensive captain, a leader and play caller. That's not easily replaceable.

As for Pierce, just a huge bummer losing him to COVID opt out. One thing that worries me with him, given he is such a large man and sat out of football for a year, will we be getting what we paid for come 2021? I've been constantly thinking that lately. I sure hope so. But yeah Johnson and Stephen just dont cut it and probably wont ever cut it. I wouldnt be surprised one bit if that's where we look in round 1 come April....3 technique.

Either way, excellent post Kapp, sorry for my lengthy babbling one lol. Have a good Thanksgiving brother. SKOL

You have a great Thanksgiving, too.

Something to add to your comments about Ezra Cleveland. As most of you know, I love Baldy's Breakdowns. Baldinger has been singing Cleveland's praises since the Green Bay game, and he's been going into detail as to why. The play that got me was Cousins' second TD to Thielen against the Bears. Cleveland originally doubled with Bradbury on the tackle, then flipped his hips 180 degrees and chipped Khalil Mack, who was battling O'Neill and was about to get underneath leverage. Cleveland's help slowed Mack, and that allowed Cousins the time and the throwing land he needed to zip the ball to Thielen. What was cool was that you could see Mack's frustration at getting stymied.

That was a veteran move by a very talented rookie. You can't blame Brian O'Neill for not handling Mack by himself ... Khalil Mack is a monster. But with Cleveland doubling TWO guys on the same pass play, the Vikings were able to get the game-winning score.

It was slow to happen, but I'm glad the Vikings put this young man on the field. If he can stay healthy, he looks to be a fixture for a long time.

[J. Kapp 11]

Wow Kapp, that post actually made me feel optimistic!! That's quite an accomplishment, THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!

my only comment is that it is disappointing that Zim waited until the bye week to make his adjustments. The roster turnover, the injuries/opt out, abbreviated offseason, no preseason, etc. were all out of Zimmer's control. But he waited until they were 1-5 before making adjustments to his defense. He started Elf, then went to Samia when Elf went down and we had to watch that debacle for a couple of weeks until he was forced to go with Ezra. Why is he so stubborn and set in his ways that it takes a 1-5 start before he tweaks his "system" and finally starts a 2nd round rookie??

Yeah, I was down on Zimmer in the beginning of the season, too. I've always been a huge supporter, and it just didn't seem like he had an answer.

I read an article maybe a month ago about Xavier Rhodes, and why he's having such a bounce-back season with the Colts. The reason is that the Colts are asking him to play a lot more zone, which fits his current skillset a lot better. A few years ago, he was the baddest shutdown press-man corner on the planet. But he's lost just enough athletically that he can't play that way anymore. But Zimmer kept using Rhodes in the way he used him in 2016 and '17, and Rhodes just couldn't do it. Then we get these rookies, and Zimmer is continuing to use these exotic looks and asking guys like Cam Dantzler to play 2017 Xavier Rhodes. So I was pretty pissed at Zimmer.

Why did it take him so long to adjust? That's a great question. In truth, he should have adjusted at least a year ago, when it was evident Rhodes' skills were beginning to deteriorate.

Bottom line is that Zimmer HAS adjusted, and the defense is better.

Unfortunately, that led to problems last week against the Cowboys. According to Zimmer, his young corners started getting full of themselves and going off-script. That led to some breakdowns like the the throw to Amari Cooper at the end of the first half. We fans blame Harrison Smith because he's the closest man to Cooper and ends up making the tackle. But according to Zimmer, that was Kris Boyd going off-script and trying to jump the sideline route.

Anyway, Zimmer was slow to adjust, for sure. But he has adjusted. Have to give him credit for that. Let's see how the Vikings do against the Panthers this Sunday. I think they may fare better. Dallas has many, many weapons at the skill positions. Carolina has far fewer. Without CMC, they have Robby Anderson and a bunch of other dudes.